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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: a10t2 on May 14, 2013, 05:04:09 PM

Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: a10t2 on May 14, 2013, 05:04:09 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324715704578483082692342210.html
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: guido on May 14, 2013, 05:14:43 PM
I'm really tired of random numbers the government pulls out of its you-know-what.  I trust myself on the road with a 0.15% BAC a lot more than some of the drivers I just encountered today.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: morticaixavier on May 14, 2013, 05:27:56 PM
I'm really tired of random numbers the government pulls out of its you-know-what.  I trust myself on the road with a 0.15% BAC a lot more than some of the drivers I just encountered today.

did you read the article? it's hardly a random number. it's been well tested and studied in real world situations it sounds like.

I know that I do not trust myself at .08 in fact I don't think I would trust myself at .05. for me, at... let's just go with 200 lb. it's close enough ::) I can have a drink and then drive or two or three drinks over an evening with food and drive. that's where I feel safe and I think I likely am, although not as safe as I would be on no booze at all.

very nearly everyone that get's behind the wheel when they shouldn't thinks that THEY can be trusted more that those other guys. I am not saying that you are an unsafe driver but if I was hanging out without and you had enough booze to be at .15 I would not get in a car with you and I would STRONGLY suggest that you at least wait a while before driving.

If everyone would be responsible, rational, and honest with themselves and others about their current level of safe driving ability all the time then we wouldn't need BAC limits but they aren't and we do. and it does in fact reduce fatalities. Driving in public is a privilege not a right.
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2013, 06:34:07 PM
Come on Google Cars!!
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: guido on May 14, 2013, 06:43:42 PM
I stand by my convictions.  And I expect to be in the minority.  But mark my words: in a few years there will be a "study" that recommends a 0.03% BAC before it's lowered to the real objective of zero tolerance.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: gsandel on May 14, 2013, 06:49:42 PM
I have no problem with a 0.05% BAC, but admittedly I will have to change my habits a bit to ensure that I comply.  This will hurt my local breweries (especially the bar staff) and be offset by additional purchases at my LHBS.

I wonder what my BAC was after judging the latest homebrew comp?  I know I wasn't up above 0.1....but might have been at 0.05%.

I wonder where the BA and AHA are with this?  It seems like bad publicity to come out publicly against, but also could be potentially bad for business and add to member's liability.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: nateo on May 14, 2013, 07:20:35 PM
I refuse to drink any amount and drive, so I have no problem with a zero tolerance policy. It's just not a risk I'm willing to take. Now, drinking and bicycling, or drinking and walking, I'm fine with.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: gsandel on May 14, 2013, 07:25:20 PM
I wish I could claim that sort of high ground (refusal to imbibe when needing to drive), but most people don't realize that operating a bicycle is just as illegal as driving with a BAC that exceeds 0.08%....

Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: nateo on May 14, 2013, 07:40:40 PM
I wish I could claim that sort of high ground (refusal to imbibe when needing to drive), but most people don't realize that operating a bicycle is just as illegal as driving with a BAC that exceeds 0.08%....

Just as illegal, yes, but much less likely to kill someone else. Maybe yourself, but there's not much damage you can do to someone else. A few people die each year due to cyclist caused accidents, vs. tens of thousands of people per year due to motorists.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: tschmidlin on May 14, 2013, 07:43:34 PM
I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

1.  Open containers are legal.  Is drinking a beer more distracting than a soda?  Is having a bunch of drunk guys drinking in the car less distracting than having a bunch of drunk guys drinking in the car while you make your way to the next place?  I'd even support a tiered limit, lower if there is an open container.
2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city :(

We also need to invest money in things like google's self-driving car, with no requirement that the person in the car be in control.  I would totally let that thing drive me everywhere even if I wasn't drinking.  I could nap, read, talk on the phone, whatever.  I would pay for that.  If the self-driving car isn't safe enough, set it up like a drone where someone somewhere else could take control if needed or the whole time if required.  It would be cheaper than a cab because it is your car, and you could charge $0.50 per minute to have someone remotely do the driving.  GPS mapping so you don't need to tell the person where you are going, you type in a destination and wait for someone to log on and drive you there.  When they are done they park and switch to the next car so they can keep getting paid.  Damn, I really want that.  I don't mind driving in general, but sometimes it feels like a complete waste of time.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: weithman5 on May 14, 2013, 08:03:13 PM

.  I don't mind driving in general, but sometimes it feels like a complete waste of time.

i hate going anywhere more than a few miles from home now.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: MDixon on May 14, 2013, 08:15:03 PM
This may not be popular, but...

Nothing that every begins with "A recent study" or "A recent survey" ends well and has much validity. This will not end drunk driving, it will just lower the threshold at which someone can be ticked/cited. The people who are going to drink a fifth of liquor and drive are still going to drink a fifth and drive. Those who slam a 12 pack and cut doughnuts are still going to do it. What it might do is make those of us who do have a beer and go home think should I have that next beer or not. Will I have enough time to absorb the alcohol or should I race home immediately to be sure the alcohol has not been absorbed yet. Many of us already use a similar litmus test and for those of us who do it really won't be that much of a change.

I gotta say I despise stuff like this. I do realize driving drunk can hurt others, but driving at a 0.06 vs a 0.05 probably would not. Certainly it has been proven talking on a cell phone or sleep deprived is more dangerous than 0.08, but there I go pointing out a survey. I have always worn a seat belt since my very first car came without them and I asked my father to help me install them so I could stop sliding across the vinyl. I don't need a law to tell me to wear my seatbelt. If I choose not to wear it, that should be my choice to be stupid. Same thing with motorcyle helments. If you want to be an idiot, more power to you. Now I don't condone someone blowing 0.20 when the legal limit is 0.08, but choosing a number because "more than 100 countries" have done it is about as smart as you jumping off the cliff because your friends think it is a good idea.

I see a blog post in the making. ;)
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: a10t2 on May 14, 2013, 08:18:08 PM
lowered to the real objective of zero tolerance.

Can't come soon enough, IMHO. I don't understand why I have to be on the road with people who have three or four DUIs.

Edit: I fail at reading comprehension. By "zero tolerance" I was referring to consequences, not the actual number.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: firedog23 on May 14, 2013, 08:23:06 PM
As a firefighter who has responded to many people who have gotten in a vehicle accident and injured others because they thought they knew better; as a military person who has been preached too about the dangers of BAC's (beyond my desire to hear it any more) and as someone who is living in England and home of the walk to the pub culture; if you think you are ever capable of driving after drinking then you need to stop drinking or move closer to the pub so that you can walk there and back. Our system in the states sucks that everything is designed towards the need of a car to get around but it doesn't mean we need to drive after drinking. If you feel the need to drink and drive then you need to either brew more beer at home, move closer to friends who you drink with or live next to a pub like I do.

The idea of drinking and driving is one that may have worked years ago but it does not now. If you have not had to cut someone out of a car because they were too stupid to not drink and drive or those that were injured because of your actions, then you are obviously part of the problem.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: guido on May 14, 2013, 08:47:57 PM
I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city :(

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: Slowbrew on May 14, 2013, 08:53:19 PM
I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city :(

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

What was the charge?  Walking while intoxicated?  Public staggering/shuffling?  Excessive eye watering?

Paul
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: guido on May 14, 2013, 09:01:12 PM
I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city :(

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

What was the charge?  Walking while intoxicated?  Public staggering/shuffling?  Excessive eye watering?

Paul

Public drunkenness.  If they want ya, they're gonna get you.  The PA Liquor Control Board (they control distribution and enforcement, that's another discussion) is famous (infamous?) for overstepping its boundaries.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: Slowbrew on May 14, 2013, 09:25:39 PM
I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city :(

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

What was the charge?  Walking while intoxicated?  Public staggering/shuffling?  Excessive eye watering?

Paul

Public drunkenness.  If they want ya, they're gonna get you.  The PA Liquor Control Board (they control distribution and enforcement, that's another discussion) is famous (infamous?) for overstepping its boundaries.

Another thing to be happy I live in Iowa for.  Here you can't be arrested because they watched you have some drinks.  You actually have to do something that gives them probable cause.  Walking three houses down to go home, assuming you don't start screaming, throwing things or wondering out into the street may get you watched by an officer who happens to be around but they'll leave you alone if you make it home.  Most officers will help you get to your door if you're weaving.  It seems hard to believe that there wasn't more to the story but I don't live there so I'll take your word for it.

Paul
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: The Professor on May 14, 2013, 09:36:32 PM
In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

Can's say I'm totally surprised.  PA is kind of known for it's bizarre and backwards liquor laws as well the overzealous folks on the liquor control board who 'enforce' the law.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: gsandel on May 14, 2013, 10:10:42 PM
Quote
PA is kind of known for it's bizarre and backwards liquor laws as well the overzealous folks on the liquor control board who 'enforce' the law.

Words to remember when we are all in Philly next month.

I do know of more than one college towns setting up DUI checkpoints on bike paths....the 0.05% BAC limit can more easily be abused....
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2013, 10:23:53 PM
Have to agree with some of what Dixon is saying. The guy who has 2 or 3 beers isn't the guy out there killing people when he gets behind the wheel. Statistically the DUI laws we have in place now have worked. I don't think lowering the limit any further will lower the death rate any.

I don't worry much about drunk drivers much. Even though I know it is I problem it never kept me off the road.   But I have pretty much stopped riding my motorcycle because of cell phone talkers and texters. You want to implement some legislation go after these people.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: morticaixavier on May 14, 2013, 10:37:10 PM
Have to agree with some of what Dixon is saying. The guy who has 2 or 3 beers isn't the guy out there killing people when he gets behind the wheel. Statistically the DUI laws we have in place now have worked. I don't think lowering the limit any further will lower the death rate any.

I don't worry much about drunk drivers much. Even though I know it is I problem it never kept me off the road.   But I have pretty much stopped riding my motorcycle because of cell phone talkers and texters. You want to implement some legislation go after these people.

From the California ADP statisitics for 2010

"Drivers with a high BAC (.15% or
above) accounted for more than half of
all alcohol-related traffic fatalities."

http://adp.ca.gov/FactSheets/DrivingUnderTheInfluenceStatistics.pdf (http://adp.ca.gov/FactSheets/DrivingUnderTheInfluenceStatistics.pdf)

so, while it's true that the guys getting truly trashed are causing most of the deaths they are by no means causing all or even an overwhelming majority of them.
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2013, 10:49:36 PM
So, what's to say the other half accidents were caused by inebriation? Accidents happen and people get killed all the time. I don't think it is safe to assume that someone with a .08 limit gets in an accident and kills someone that the alcohol was necessarily to blame.

You have to be really careful with tests like this. They are worded to make a case and a point but that point may not be the actual cause of the issue.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: duxx on May 14, 2013, 10:50:45 PM
Quote
PA is kind of known for it's bizarre and backwards liquor laws as well the overzealous folks on the liquor control board who 'enforce' the law.

Words to remember when we are all in Philly next month.

Exactly what I was thinking!!!
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: morticaixavier on May 14, 2013, 11:04:30 PM
So, what's to say the other half accidents were caused by inebriation? Accidents happen and people get killed all the time. I don't think it is safe to assume that someone with a .08 limit gets in an accident and kills someone that the alcohol was necessarily to blame.

You have to be really careful with tests like this. They are worded to make a case and a point but that point may not be the actual cause of the issue.

Okay, sure, it's possible that none of the other 40 whatever percent of 'alcohol related' traffic deaths were totally unrelated to the alcohol. For that matter there is no reason to think that the ones with >.15 BAC were in any way affected by the alcohol. However there is VERY strong evidence that being inebriated interferes with ones ability to operate machinery safely. and my point stands I think that people do ge tkilled because someone with a .05 or .06 or some stupid kid with a .03 for that matter did something they might well have not done if they were fully in control of there faculties.
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2013, 11:18:00 PM
Agreed that there is no evidence either way. if you blood alc. limit is over the legal limit even if you are sitting at a stop sign and get rear ended by someone on their cell phone you get blamed for the accident.

Obviously when people do get drunk they are not as safe behind the wheel, but I don't think it is wise to assume that someone at .06 is necessarily "inebriated". And I'd need to see a more detailed analysis than what has been posited before I will change my stance.

I'm just not going to jump up and down with joy and indignation at the first mention of newly proposed law that restricts my freedoms in a way that seems over the top. I rarely go out and drink but at the rate it's going I won't even be able to test taste a beer at my own brewery and get behind the wheel.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: MDixon on May 15, 2013, 12:02:59 AM
I did a little quick research. When the law dropped from 0.10 to 0.08 a study (insert eye roll emoticon) found the drop in drivers with 0.10 or greater in fatal crashes to decrease by 6%. That was right after the laws changed in some states.

I found a neat 1999 analysis from CT (more eye roll emoticons).
49% of fatalities in motor vehicles has zero alcohol in their system. So sober drivers.
3% were in the 0.01 to 0.04 range
5% in the 0.05 to 0.10 range

So 57% of all traffic fatalities involved legal amounts of alcohol to zero alcohol

If you took out the sober drivers, 54% of those with any alcohol had a BAC more than 0.16
http://www.cga.ct.gov/ps99/rpt/olr/htm/99-r-0154.htm

Fast forward to 2010 and the NTSB found 75% of fatal crashes involving drunk drivers had BAC more than twice the legal limit.
http://www.drugfree.org/join-together/alcohol/most-drunk-drivers-causing-fatal-crashes-have-almost-twice-legal-blood-alcohol-limit-2

You simply are not going to stop those drivers with a change to the BAC.

Nebraska has an interesting fact sheet. 18% of alcohol impaired drivers are under 21. So lemme get this straight, we have a law which states zero alcohol until 21 (in most states) and a certain BAC. Those laws are being broken so changing a limit and ultimately changing a law is going to stop the law from being broken? That's the kind of thinking that will get you elected!
http://www.transportation.nebraska.gov/safetysummit/2012/presentations/3-Fatal-Crashes-Alcohol.pdf


Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 15, 2013, 12:16:47 AM
I don't condone drunken driving whatsoever, but I would take my chances any day next to a driver @ .08 who is paying attention, versus one of the 18 year old girls who nearly take me out weekly while texting evidently LONG sentences without even bothering to look up while in mid-sentence.  Texting while driving is an epidemic level problem that seems to get enforced rarely.  And the penalties are so much lighter as compared to DWI, it's a joke. If anything, I find it more dangerous. Where is the real deterrent?
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: MDixon on May 15, 2013, 12:22:26 AM
Penalties in the US do little IMO to deter crime. You see the sign driving down the road which says, "Penalties Increased Ahead" or "Fines Doubled In Work Zones". Sometimes it even tells you how much. Do you slow down because of a penalty or because you don't want to kill someone? Do you slow down at all? (Rhetorical question, but as I drive 40K miles per year I do feel qualified to answer few slow down at all.)
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 15, 2013, 12:36:06 AM
I do think that the DUI limit of .08% is legally fair and I do think it cuts down on people drinking and driving, so in that case it is a penalty that works. But I think going to .05% is just going to punish people who have had a beer or two with dinner and then drove their kid to his soccer game and got into a routine fender bender.

Proud to say I have never gotten a DUI, fwiw.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: coastsidemike on May 15, 2013, 04:10:35 AM
But I think going to .05% is just going to punish people who have had a beer or two with dinner and then drove their kid to his soccer game and got into a routine fender bender.

Proud to say I have never gotten a DUI, fwiw.

Gotta call you on your logic there.  I'm learning to bike in a city at the moment; the close "fender benders" have be scary enough to really ponder if I'm flirting with my own survival.  Scares the **** out of me when it happens.

Also, a "beer or two" implies 4.5%-5.5% when most beer enthusiasts are drinking 6%-11% (imo, of course).

+1 on no DUI.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: brewmasternpb on May 15, 2013, 04:23:39 AM
As I get older, I focus more on responsibility when I am out.  I went out for my best friend's bachelor party last weekend.  Due to circumstances, I had to drive home at the end of the night. Because of this, I was really excited to see Avery's 3point5 on tap at the Falling Rock in Denver.  A low alcohol session beer like that made it easier to have 3 beers over the course of the entire evening (5 hours).  Of course, I did also take the train most of the way home.  But  I would like to see more places have session beers on tap because of  this.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: MDixon on May 15, 2013, 11:14:50 AM
Had to be done.  8)

http://mashbang.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/ntsb-recommends-to-lower-the-bac/
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 15, 2013, 11:53:20 AM
But I think going to .05% is just going to punish people who have had a beer or two with dinner and then drove their kid to his soccer game and got into a routine fender bender.

Proud to say I have never gotten a DUI, fwiw.

Gotta call you on your logic there.  I'm learning to bike in a city at the moment; the close "fender benders" have be scary enough to really ponder if I'm flirting with my own survival.  Scares the **** out of me when it happens.

Also, a "beer or two" implies 4.5%-5.5% when most beer enthusiasts are drinking 6%-11% (imo, of course).

+1 on no DUI.

Trust me, as a motorcyclist I know what you are talking about, but that is unrelated to my comment. I'm not implying that a beer or two with dinner could cause a fender bender. I'm saying that at the proposed .05% limit that you can be in a mild altercation that isn;t even your fault and go to jail for it when your motorskills are absolutely fine. So your not calling me on anything.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 15, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
Time to start making Non alcoholic beers.
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 15, 2013, 01:58:35 PM
Well, I prefer to do my drinking sessions at my home on my deck or in my pub room so no NA beers fore quite yet. ;)
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: gogreen437 on May 15, 2013, 02:18:39 PM
I'm really tired of random numbers the government pulls out of its you-know-what.  I trust myself on the road with a 0.15% BAC a lot more than some of the drivers I just encountered today.

did you read the article? it's hardly a random number. it's been well tested and studied in real world situations it sounds like.

I know that I do not trust myself at .08 in fact I don't think I would trust myself at .05. for me, at... let's just go with 200 lb. it's close enough ::) I can have a drink and then drive or two or three drinks over an evening with food and drive. that's where I feel safe and I think I likely am, although not as safe as I would be on no booze at all.

very nearly everyone that get's behind the wheel when they shouldn't thinks that THEY can be trusted more that those other guys. I am not saying that you are an unsafe driver but if I was hanging out without and you had enough booze to be at .15 I would not get in a car with you and I would STRONGLY suggest that you at least wait a while before driving.

If everyone would be responsible, rational, and honest with themselves and others about their current level of safe driving ability all the time then we wouldn't need BAC limits but they aren't and we do. and it does in fact reduce fatalities. Driving in public is a privilege not a right.

I don't disagree that someone at .15 should not be behind the wheel.  But, the article also pointed out that lowering the legal limit from 0.1 to 0.08 hasn't done much to reduce drunk driving related fatalities, and the move from 0.08 to 0.05 likely would not either.  I agree with the statement made in the article by the alcoholic-beverage and restaurant industries that focusing on repeat offenders and those who are clearly above the legal limit would be more effective than targeting someone who had a pint at dinner.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: guido on May 15, 2013, 02:34:58 PM
I'm really tired of random numbers the government pulls out of its you-know-what.  I trust myself on the road with a 0.15% BAC a lot more than some of the drivers I just encountered today.

did you read the article? it's hardly a random number. it's been well tested and studied in real world situations it sounds like.

I know that I do not trust myself at .08 in fact I don't think I would trust myself at .05. for me, at... let's just go with 200 lb. it's close enough ::) I can have a drink and then drive or two or three drinks over an evening with food and drive. that's where I feel safe and I think I likely am, although not as safe as I would be on no booze at all.

very nearly everyone that get's behind the wheel when they shouldn't thinks that THEY can be trusted more that those other guys. I am not saying that you are an unsafe driver but if I was hanging out without and you had enough booze to be at .15 I would not get in a car with you and I would STRONGLY suggest that you at least wait a while before driving.

If everyone would be responsible, rational, and honest with themselves and others about their current level of safe driving ability all the time then we wouldn't need BAC limits but they aren't and we do. and it does in fact reduce fatalities. Driving in public is a privilege not a right.

I don't disagree that someone at .15 should not be behind the wheel.  But, the article also pointed out that lowering the legal limit from 0.1 to 0.08 hasn't done much to reduce drunk driving related fatalities, and the move from 0.08 to 0.05 likely would not either.  I agree with the statement made in the article that focusing on repeat offenders and those who are clearly above the legal limit would be more affective than targeting someone who had a pint at dinner.

The government claims they want to lower the limit to save lives and protect us from ourselves, but their true agenda has always been zero tolerance and Big Brother controlling yet another aspect of our lives.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: tonyp on May 15, 2013, 03:05:25 PM
All these numbers are pretty meaningless to me, I honestly have no idea what the difference of .05 and .08 feels like. I know when I'm buzzed and I know when I'm drunk and I certainly know when I'm wasted, but how that correlates to the numbers is beyond me.

I'd really like to get a breathalizer at some point and test it out over a few hours to get a better understanding of it. In fact, maybe that should become part of the driver training curriculum. I could see going to a training class at an airport or somewhere similar, drinking X Alchohol over X Time and then driving thru a road course, or even a simulator, to test reaction times at different drunkenness levels. I know I've seen this done on TV but maybe everyone should get to do it.

This leads me to another aspect of this whole conversation. I've always believed that driving tests in the US are way too easy. Knowing how to parallel park and make a K-Turn is a joke in the grand scheme of driving. I think everyone should be subjected to a few different courses, maybe even over a few days.

I was really lucky that my dad and grandfather both took the time to teach me the skills i really needed for driving on the road. They would take me to this bus depot parking lot when it was raining and make me spin the car on purpose to get a grasp of what it was like to lose control of the vehicle, how to avoid it and how to recover from it. They also did this with 2 different cars in both the rain and the snow and I have to tell you, the first time you do it its scary as hell but after 4 or 5 times it becomes natural to just turn into the skid and recover from it. And when that skid happens in the real world, and it will, you won't panic, you'll just react.

Just think about what you learned in your driving class and what its really like on the road. Its a huge difference and unfortunately it takes time to build up the experience needed to actually be a good competent driver.

Can you imagine if we let people fly planes with the same amount of training?
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: tonyp on May 15, 2013, 03:11:03 PM
The government claims they want to lower the limit to save lives and protect us from ourselves, but their true agenda has always been zero tolerance and Big Brother controlling yet another aspect of our lives.

Don't forget the amount of money the gov makes off of the people that are caught. The court costs, fines, insurance premiums, license fees, etc.

Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that the same gov that builds billion-dollar weapons to kill people thousand of miles away really gives a s*** about saving a few people on the highway. Its about money, everything is.

Lower limits = higher likelihood of more offenders, its that simple.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: SecondRow_Sean on May 15, 2013, 03:33:45 PM
How long until this thread gets locked?
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: denny on May 15, 2013, 03:38:33 PM
The government claims they want to lower the limit to save lives and protect us from ourselves, but their true agenda has always been zero tolerance and Big Brother controlling yet another aspect of our lives.

This is getting dangerously close to political and I may end up deleting this response, but you;d be hard pressed to prove the bolded part.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: denny on May 15, 2013, 03:39:36 PM
How long until this thread gets locked?

It could be soon....
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: guido on May 15, 2013, 03:46:24 PM
The government claims they want to lower the limit to save lives and protect us from ourselves, but their true agenda has always been zero tolerance and Big Brother controlling yet another aspect of our lives.

This is getting dangerously close to political and I may end up deleting this response, but you;d be hard pressed to prove the bolded part.
I apologize for bringing politics into this, Denny.  I should have refrained from posting on this thread from the get-go.  I'll keep my politics to myself in the future.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: denny on May 15, 2013, 03:47:27 PM
The government claims they want to lower the limit to save lives and protect us from ourselves, but their true agenda has always been zero tolerance and Big Brother controlling yet another aspect of our lives.

This is getting dangerously close to political and I may end up deleting this response, but you;d be hard pressed to prove the bolded part.
I apologize for bringing politics into this, Denny.  I should have refrained from posting on this thread from the get-go.  I'll keep my politics to myself in the future.

Thanks.  If you do that, it will be easier for me to do the same!
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 15, 2013, 03:58:21 PM
I'm all for zero tolerance with randomly located check points, and immediate execution of all violators.

Political flame of the day. Throwing myself on the grenade so Denny won't feel bad giving this thread gone wild the axe
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 15, 2013, 06:11:23 PM
Good save. I honestly think this is a good topic to discuss sans politics. I'm all for the google cars thing. Then there's no worries regardless. Let the computer drive. ;)

Now that digs up an entirely new can of worms....
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 15, 2013, 06:18:09 PM
A good old fashioned society reboot would help. Maybe a year with no electronic technology would save us. Or go go Google everything
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: Slowbrew on May 15, 2013, 06:26:38 PM
When my Dad was a kid in a small rural community one guy would drive his wagon in on Saturday night.  This wagon was pulled by a horse.  He would give the horse some hay and oats, make sure it had water and then go to one of the bars.  At the end of the night the farmers friends would dump him in the wagon and untie the horse.  The horse would go home on it's own and the guy's wife would wake him up and he would unhook the horse put it back in the barn.  The next morning they would drive the car into town for Mass.

It would be really funny to know if his horse was named Goggle.  And if the Patent Office would consider that prior art?  ;D

Paul
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: AmandaK on May 15, 2013, 07:04:31 PM
Does anyone here even have a legitimate breathalyzer?

I bought one a few years ago to keep myself safe and legal and I was absolutely surprised at where 0.08 was. Sometimes it's two beers, usually three session beers and it's even been one IIPA on an empty stomach. Point is, when you're drinking you usually underestimate your true level.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 15, 2013, 10:06:25 PM
Does anyone here even have a legitimate breathalyzer?

I bought one a few years ago to keep myself safe and legal and I was absolutely surprised at where 0.08 was. Sometimes it's two beers, usually three session beers and it's even been one IIPA on an empty stomach. Point is, when you're drinking you usually underestimate your true level.
I saw an add on sensor on smart phone. Not sure how well it worked.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: tygo on May 16, 2013, 12:00:24 AM
Does anyone here even have a legitimate breathalyzer?

I bought one awhile back specifically for brew club meetings.  It's pretty much the only time when I drink anything and drive.  I try to limit myself to the equivalent of about 3 beers in two hours and that puts me well under the 0.08 limit, but although I'm usually below 0.05 I'd be pretty wary about it if that was the limit.

 It is surprising how quickly the BAC racks up.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: BrewingRover on May 16, 2013, 03:35:51 PM
This leads me to another aspect of this whole conversation. I've always believed that driving tests in the US are way too easy. Knowing how to parallel park and make a K-Turn is a joke in the grand scheme of driving. I think everyone should be subjected to a few different courses, maybe even over a few days.

I was really lucky that my dad and grandfather both took the time to teach me the skills i really needed for driving on the road. They would take me to this bus depot parking lot when it was raining and make me spin the car on purpose to get a grasp of what it was like to lose control of the vehicle, how to avoid it and how to recover from it. They also did this with 2 different cars in both the rain and the snow and I have to tell you, the first time you do it its scary as hell but after 4 or 5 times it becomes natural to just turn into the skid and recover from it. And when that skid happens in the real world, and it will, you won't panic, you'll just react.

Just think about what you learned in your driving class and what its really like on the road. Its a huge difference and unfortunately it takes time to build up the experience needed to actually be a good competent driver.

Can you imagine if we let people fly planes with the same amount of training?

I worked as a letter carrier for awhile and the best part of the training was the driving instruction. We spent time in class and on the road with instructors. It was pretty eye-opening after having been licensed for 15+ years.

Of course I still took the door off a postal vehicle one day because of the ridiculous built-in blindspot on the Grumman LLV :-[ A utility pole can completely disappear behind the side view mirrors.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 16, 2013, 04:03:47 PM
The NTSB can recommend away but each state would have to change their own laws. In the end, if the per se amount was .05 it would really only apply in blood draw scenarios like vehicle assault or hom.  It is not always easy to detect below .08 on the street. Plus the SFST battery is designed for .08 so until the science is there it wouldn't change much.
If you are a light weight and can't walk at <.08 you'll go to jail anyway.. 08 is just the per se limit. You can still be guilty at <.08 right now if you are impaired
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: brewmichigan on May 16, 2013, 04:48:10 PM
The NTSB can recommend away but each state would have to change their own laws.

yes but if the federal government puts their weight behind this, then the states will follow suit. Michigan just approved to extend the 0.08 limit this year. It was set to lapse this fall and revert back to the 0.10 law it used to be. If the state would have let it lapse, they would lose millions of dollars in federal funding. Money talks.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: EHall on May 16, 2013, 05:02:53 PM
you can't legislate safety.... its all about control/money.

'If the self-driving car isn't safe enough, set it up like a drone where someone somewhere else could take control if needed or the whole time if required.'

That is a seriously scary response/suggestion... There are already WAY to many 'things' controling us... we don't need any more!
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: tschmidlin on May 16, 2013, 05:28:13 PM
you can't legislate safety.... its all about control/money.

'If the self-driving car isn't safe enough, set it up like a drone where someone somewhere else could take control if needed or the whole time if required.'

That is a seriously scary response/suggestion... There are already WAY to many 'things' controling us... we don't need any more!
It would be voluntary - you could switch it off.  If you don't like the service, don't use it.

And btw, it's not controlling you, it's controlling the car.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: morticaixavier on May 16, 2013, 06:05:04 PM
you can't legislate safety.... its all about control/money.

'If the self-driving car isn't safe enough, set it up like a drone where someone somewhere else could take control if needed or the whole time if required.'

That is a seriously scary response/suggestion... There are already WAY to many 'things' controling us... we don't need any more!

of course you can legislate safety. you can't force everyone to listen. It is a legal requirement that all cars have seatbelts. seatbelts save lives.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: EHall on May 16, 2013, 08:08:37 PM
Its nice to see my comrads are so obedient to the state! :-)
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 16, 2013, 09:41:50 PM
Cars on roads are the one thing I don't gripe too much about regs. Its an earned privilege to drive on public roads, not a right. So "They" can regulate away on that.

But for most other aspects of life I am a bit more nihilistic.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: Tim Thomssen on May 16, 2013, 09:43:21 PM
Does anyone here even have a legitimate breathalyzer?

I bought one a few years ago to keep myself safe and legal and I was absolutely surprised at where 0.08 was. Sometimes it's two beers, usually three session beers and it's even been one IIPA on an empty stomach. Point is, when you're drinking you usually underestimate your true level.

I tried the cheapo $40 breathalyzer about 12 years ago.  It worked will enough to help calibrate the relationship between how I felt and BAC but the response time is slow, like several minutes.  After a while I started to get pretty good at predicting BAC and don't seem use it as frequently now.  I always keep it in the console of my truck, good for a little reality check before turning the key, just in case I'm not as good at predicting as I think.  When you go to a brew club meeting, it's impossible to keep track of alcohol intake with small samples of various strength beers, much more difficult than tracking those 3 Bud's or whatever. 

I have now upgraded to a meter with "fuel cell technology", whatever that is, anyway, it produces results in a few seconds and is a quality piece.  Cost was about $120, cheap insurance in my book, if used properly.  One key to an accurate reading is to not drink anything for about a half hour before testing, otherwise the alcohol in your mouth causes a false positive.  Waiting that half hour is usually a good thing anyway but it makes the tool less effective in a party environment because people have a hard time waiting.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 16, 2013, 09:59:18 PM
Just remember that testing yourself at <.080 is no guarantee that you won't be arrested. Collision plus any alcohol equals evidence of impairment. 
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 17, 2013, 01:50:11 AM
Just remember that testing yourself at <.080 is no guarantee that you won't be arrested. Collision plus any alcohol equals evidence of impairment.

This is true, assuming you are blood tested.
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: denny on May 17, 2013, 02:17:13 AM
MADD, AAA, and NHTSA are opposed to .05.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/officials-look-for-a-fresh-approach-to-eliminate-drunken-driving-as-progress-stagnates/2013/05/14/c34471a8-bc6a-11e2-b537-ab47f0325f7c_story.html
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 17, 2013, 03:10:32 AM
Didn't say "opposed", said "have not endorsed".
Title: Re: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 17, 2013, 05:57:47 AM
Just remember that testing yourself at <.080 is no guarantee that you won't be arrested. Collision plus any alcohol equals evidence of impairment.

This is true, assuming you are blood tested.

Don't need blood.  For example, left of center results in crash, cops arrive,  pbt shows .025. Guilty neg driving 1st degree.
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 17, 2013, 11:32:19 AM
That's assuming any type of sobriety test is done, which is not a given. You could have 2 beers, be "perfectly sober", get into an accident and never be tested at all.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 17, 2013, 12:14:49 PM
Right. What I'm pointing out is that the per se limit makes you intoxicated "per se" regardless of your personal impairment level. But, it does not mean you are innocent if you are under the per se limit. If the officer observes evidence of impairment you may still be going to jail no matter what the BAC level is. Also, DUI is not the only alcohol driving crime.

Hopefully, this is all just interesting banter and my state will keep the .080 limit. Consistently detecting impairment below .080 is not easy. IME most people who exhibit driving  impairment and failure of sobriety tests are well above .080.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: tschmidlin on May 17, 2013, 06:38:18 PM
Just remember that testing yourself at <.080 is no guarantee that you won't be arrested. Collision plus any alcohol equals evidence of impairment.

This is true, assuming you are blood tested.

Don't need blood.  For example, left of center results in crash, cops arrive,  pbt shows .025. Guilty neg driving 1st degree.
It may vary from state to state, but pbt is generally not admissible in Washington where you (and I) live.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 17, 2013, 11:40:42 PM
Well I was being very brief... my case reports are normally a little longer.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 18, 2013, 02:54:00 AM
In short, the point I'm trying to get across is that the idea that as long as you are under the per se limit you are good to go,,, wrong idea!  A driver who is under the legal limit can still be found guilty of an alcohol related driving crime.
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: 1vertical on May 18, 2013, 08:15:29 AM
Post removed. Political. Guys, we already went over this once - Mod
Title: Re: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: klickitat jim on May 18, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
Post removed, political.
Title: NTSB Recommends 0.05% BAC Limit
Post by: majorvices on May 18, 2013, 01:06:35 PM
Yep. That's enough.