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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: klickitat jim on June 12, 2013, 11:04:11 AM

Title: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on June 12, 2013, 11:04:11 AM
So, day before yesterday i used a sanitized paint stir gizmo on a drill to stir my hot wort while my 25' 3/8" IC did its thing. I guess I thought if moving the wort past the coil was a good thing, why not do it with a machine. It worked wicked fast. Like from just below boil to 70 in about ten minutes. But someone reminded me about HSA. So I broke out Palmer HTB. But I also surfed the web on it. Seems there is some jury still out on this for the homebrew scale. To the point of calling it a myth at the 5 gallon level.

Its going to be real interesting to see how this one turns out. I can tell you that it is fermenting really nicely and has some awesome fresh hops odors. I'm not declaring this victory over the dragon yet, but how cool would it be to chill in ten minutes with a $3 paint stir?
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 12, 2013, 11:50:45 AM
Find the Charles Bamforth interview on the Brewing Network. He says there are many other things to worry about, and good fermentation a will take care of much of it IIRC. I don't know if he ever thought about what you did, though.

These days I am not too paranoid about a little splashing.

Let us know how it turns out.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: greatplainsbrewer on June 12, 2013, 11:52:15 AM
I don't think HSA is going to be an issue here- aren't you going to aerate right after chilling anyway?  Haven't run into HSA with a vigorous whirlpool at that stage in seven years of brewing.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: AmandaK on June 12, 2013, 12:04:28 PM
Sounds like Jamil's whirlpool chiller does just about the same thing.

Like Jeff said, if Charles Bamforth thinks it's nothing to worry about and I haven't seen it in my own brewery, I'm not gonna worry about it!
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on June 12, 2013, 12:14:35 PM
I've read a bunch on it. Seems that pre boil HSA is more of an issue than post boil.

I know it will be amazing if I can get from boil to pitch in ten minutes without a $150 pump.

I'm very curious if some magic happened from stirring those hops so vigorously because it smells like it has three times the hops I put in.

By the way, my whirlpool was much more aggressive than a jamil ic. We're talking 4" wide vortex almost to the bottom of the pot.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: Jimmy K on June 12, 2013, 12:40:39 PM
That is a strong vortex, much stronger than most HSA debaters are thinking about.  But then the wort was chilled quickly too. I think the only true answer will be to taste it.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on June 12, 2013, 12:46:02 PM
The paint stirrer is odd shaped, wide at bottom narrow at the top, kinda like spiraling fins. Looks a lot like an impeller. My guess is that it's designed to stir paint with minimum froth (aeration).

Oddly I recall there was very little foaming until it got close to pitching temp.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: davidgzach on June 12, 2013, 01:37:09 PM
Please report back on this.  HSA has always been a hotly contested topic. 
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: guido on June 12, 2013, 01:47:53 PM
Please report back on this.  HSA has always been a hotly contested topic.

I believe it's an old brewers' myth, myself.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on June 12, 2013, 01:56:15 PM
I'll definitely share the good bad and ugly on this. I'm optimistic but not going to claim it till the taste.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: davidgzach on June 12, 2013, 02:01:42 PM
I'll definitely share the good bad and ugly on this. I'm optimistic but not going to claim it till the taste.

I really don't have an opinion either way except to say I try not to splash wort until I'm ready to pitch yeast.  That being said I remember early in my all-grain days whirlpooling a hot wort in an ice bath to get it to cool quicker.  Everything else was done right and the beer had an off-flavor.  I can't remember exactly but it was just off.  Upon research I thought it was due to HSA at the time.  I've never had it again.   
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: gymrat on June 12, 2013, 02:16:39 PM
Palmer himself said it is not a concern on a podcast I heard once.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on June 12, 2013, 02:36:52 PM
I think it's one of those things that has science behind it but gets overstated in application.  Time will tell
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: The Professor on June 12, 2013, 02:51:46 PM
...I believe it's an old brewers' myth, myself.

Could be. Or, it cold be a problem only in theory.
All I know is that the late and lamented Vernon Valley Brewery (NJ's first, pioneering Microbrewery in the mid 1980s) made the best authentic German beer this side of the Atlantic.  A friend of mine (the late Jay Misson) was a brewmaster there  and he told me that they cooled their wort by cascading it over a heat exchanger. 
They seemed not to worry about HSA at all, and from what I tasted (draught and bottled), there was zero effect on the beer in the short term or the long term.
Ever since then, I never gave HSA a second thought.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on June 12, 2013, 03:01:54 PM
That eases my mind a bunch thanks
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: tcanova on June 12, 2013, 03:38:44 PM
I brew ten gallon batches and use the immersion chiller with a pump to recirculate the wort in a whirlpool.  Works great!  From my understanding hot side aeration only occurs at certain temps and maybe you are cooling yours fast enough that the compounds that cause it don't have time to form.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: denny on June 12, 2013, 03:40:17 PM
Sounds like Jamil's whirlpool chiller does just about the same thing.

Like Jeff said, if Charles Bamforth thinks it's nothing to worry about and I haven't seen it in my own brewery, I'm not gonna worry about it!

The whirlpool chiller returns the wort below the surface so there no oxygen pick up.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: denny on June 12, 2013, 03:41:11 PM
I brew ten gallon batches and use the immersion chiller with a pump to recirculate the wort in a whirlpool.  Works great!  From my understanding hot side aeration only occurs at certain temps and maybe you are cooling yours fast enough that the compounds that cause it don't have time to form.

My understanding is that you could be at risk for HSA at any temp above the mid 80s.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: denny on June 12, 2013, 03:42:33 PM
Please report back on this.  HSA has always been a hotly contested topic.

I believe it's an old brewers' myth, myself.

Having experienced what I believe was HSA, I wouldn't call it a myth.  But I would say that it's not a major risk, either.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: DrewG on June 12, 2013, 07:07:55 PM
What off flavors would/does it produce?
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: yso191 on June 12, 2013, 07:09:48 PM
What off flavors would/does it produce?

Early staling is what I read.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: denny on June 12, 2013, 08:04:31 PM
What off flavors would/does it produce?

wet cardboard, metallic, weird caramel flavors
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: DrewG on June 12, 2013, 08:58:31 PM
Similar to oxidation?
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 12, 2013, 11:34:44 PM
Similar to oxidation?
yes all early signs of oxidation.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on June 14, 2013, 11:24:09 PM
I used the paint stir drill method yesterday to chill the wort on a cream ale. I didn't run the drill as fast this time, no froth at all until it was below 100°. It still dropped temp very fast. I didn't time it but guessing less than ten minutes from 210-80.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: davidgzach on June 16, 2013, 01:53:19 PM
Please report back on this.  HSA has always been a hotly contested topic.

I believe it's an old brewers' myth, myself.

Having experienced what I believe was HSA, I wouldn't call it a myth.  But I would say that it's not a major risk, either.

+1.  I'm with Denny on this one. 
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: morticaixavier on June 17, 2013, 09:30:59 PM
It seems this would be an incredibly easy test to make. run off into two kettles and whip the beejeesus out of kettle one with a wire wisk then let it set for 30 minutes to an hours. leave the other still the same amount of time and boil both. If you want to get really scientific about it split the post boil into 4 separate fermenters and whip the beejeesus out of two post boil, pre-cooling.

at least one of those three portions that have been whipped should fairly quickly show signs of HSA.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: garc_mall on June 17, 2013, 10:28:02 PM
It seems this would be an incredibly easy test to make. run off into two kettles and whip the beejeesus out of kettle one with a wire wisk then let it set for 30 minutes to an hours. leave the other still the same amount of time and boil both. If you want to get really scientific about it split the post boil into 4 separate fermenters and whip the beejeesus out of two post boil, pre-cooling.

at least one of those three portions that have been whipped should fairly quickly show signs of HSA.

Basic Brewing Radio had a guy on 3-4 years ago which did this. One of their bottles got infected, but other than that, they didn't notice much IIRC. They tasted 3 different times, at 2, 6, and 12 months after brew day IIRC.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: Jimmy K on June 18, 2013, 01:02:41 PM
I used the paint stir drill method yesterday to chill the wort on a cream ale. I didn't run the drill as fast this time, no froth at all until it was below 100°. It still dropped temp very fast. I didn't time it but guessing less than ten minutes from 210-80.
Sounds good. You don't need much movement at all to speed up cooling.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 18, 2013, 05:54:09 PM
I have been using a stainless spoon at the end of the boil to stir up a whirlpool and accelerate cooling without any noticeable issues (I used to just use the IC in a similar manner by swirling it).  It isn't getting real splashy, either way, but it gets 10 gallons down below 100F fairly quickly; from there I just wait it out until 56F, rack to fermenter and aerate with a sanitized two blade aerator using a cordless drill.  The only time I have tasted anything like that described was with an Alt that I let sit long in primary and jostled around too much moving to a bottling bucket and then into bottles.  Maybe it was HSA, but I don't think so...
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 18, 2013, 06:03:41 PM
I have been using a stainless spoon at the end of the boil to stir up a whirlpool and accelerate cooling without any noticeable issues (I used to just use the IC in a similar manner by swirling it).  It isn't getting real splashy, either way, but it gets 10 gallons down below 100F fairly quickly; from there I just wait it out until 56F, rack to fermenter and aerate with a sanitized two blade aerator using a cordless drill.  The only time I have tasted anything like that described was with an Alt that I let sit long in primary and jostled around too much moving to a bottling bucket and then into bottles.  Maybe it was HSA, but I don't think so...
+1.  I have always stirred with a spoon while cooling with my IC to shorten cooling time.  Never to a froth, but very steadily. My only two oxidized batches in 20 years could be traced to definite post-fermentation issues. One, where my daughter knocked off an airlock from a fermenter (never good), and the other from accidental splashing at kegging.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: gevans73 on July 01, 2013, 02:21:54 AM
I've been using a paint stirrer drill to cool my 10 gallon batches for nearly a year now and have never had an issue at all.  I run the drill fairly slow and am careful to not produce foam or bubbles.  Seems to work better with the paint stir inside the chiller.  It still cools 10 gallons in less than 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: klickitat jim on July 01, 2013, 02:53:56 AM
Sweet!
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: ccfoo242 on July 01, 2013, 07:37:03 PM
And this should not be confused with Cold Side Naration which is what happens to my speech after drinking a few too many!

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: Pi on July 03, 2013, 12:20:36 PM
I am careful about not aireating the mash, but is there a concern with HSA while lautering/sparging? I usually runoff into my BK that hangs on the edge of the kettle simply with a hose. sounds like someone taking a leak in my kettle.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: denny on July 03, 2013, 03:18:50 PM
I am careful about not aireating the mash, but is there a concern with HSA while lautering/sparging? I usually runoff into my BK that hangs on the edge of the kettle simply with a hose. sounds like someone taking a leak in my kettle.

Based on my experience, I'd say no.  The way I batch sparge would make me a primary candidate for problems, but I've never had any.
Title: Re: Hot Side Aeration
Post by: cornershot on July 03, 2013, 03:27:39 PM
I am careful about not aireating the mash, but is there a concern with HSA while lautering/sparging? I usually runoff into my BK that hangs on the edge of the kettle simply with a hose. sounds like someone taking a leak in my kettle.

Didn't I see on another thread that you took a gold in NHC 2nd round? The judges apparently found no hsa issues so no worries, right? How old was your beer at the time of judging?
Btw congrats!