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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: rabid_dingo on March 08, 2010, 06:57:50 PM

Title: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 08, 2010, 06:57:50 PM
I brewed Denny's Rye PA and my base malt had quite a bit of grain that had the root growing out of it.
the mash, once drained, looked like I threw in some broken ramen noodles. Does the malting process
go to far and is there an adverse effect when that happens.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: denny on March 08, 2010, 07:05:42 PM
Does the malting process go to far and is there an adverse effect when that happens.

IIRC, yes, it can go too far and be detrimental.  But I don't have facts at hand.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: babalu87 on March 08, 2010, 07:30:05 PM
I brewed Denny's Rye PA and my base malt had quite a bit of grain that had the root growing out of it.
the mash, once drained, looked like I threw in some broken ramen noodles. Does the malting process
go to far and is there an adverse effect when that happens.

How were your efficiencies compared to previous batches?

The taste will be the final judge but efficiency could point to an issue
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 09, 2010, 08:07:53 PM
It is fermenting nicely, My efficiency held. I am not too worried but it was one of those
thoughts that if I paid for a certain product and I got bad product I'd like to know
and try to exchange or replace. But I won't know for another week or so...
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 09, 2010, 08:23:06 PM
Here are some images...
This is a handful of grain I pulled out of the bin. I separated the more "advanced" sprouts.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh233/Rabid_Dingo/Brewing/IMG_1393.jpg)

Close up of the advanced sprouts.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh233/Rabid_Dingo/Brewing/IMG_1394.jpg)

I hope the ratio holds true.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: a10t2 on March 09, 2010, 08:25:48 PM
I've been seeing just a few of those per sack recently. I suspect it's a result of the maltsters trying to get their yields as high as absolutely possible. (Over the past four years or so it seems like my Rahr analyses have been steadily ticking up, from about 81% to 83%.)

The ratio of normal:sprouted grains in the photo is more than I've seen though.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: Kaiser on March 09, 2010, 09:00:32 PM
I can’t see the photos. It says that they have been moved or deleted.

As for the maltster, when it comes to their efficiency they are actually interested in letting the barley germinate as little as possible since the growth of the embryo consumes starch. The skill of the maltster is being able to let it germinate just long enough to satisfy the modification demands of the customer.

Are you seeing the root or shoot grow out of the malt kernels? I suspect it is the latter since the rootlets are removed after drying of the malt. Normally the shoot would be about ¾ to full length of the kernel. I have not really seen it longer than that.

Kai
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 10, 2010, 04:05:29 AM
I re-edited the img links. Some of the rootlets are twice the length of the kernel...More evident in the mash once it
is all wet and the color seeps through from the roasted malts and the bed was red the roots not. I wish I took a pic.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: Kaiser on March 10, 2010, 03:52:17 PM
That is some long acrospire in those kernels. I have not seen that in my malt and since I mill by hand I would have noticed that in the gist. But it affects only about 1-2% of the grain and I would not worry about it. I’d be curious if they are just odd outlier or of the grain is unevenly modified i.e. the length of the acrospire is ranging form very short (1/2 of the grain) to very long (extending past the grain). Keep in mind that you can only see the acrospire well if it extends past the grain. If it is shorter than the grain it is still fully covered by husk material.

This all belongs to the nice to know department and I don’t want you to get worried about this malt too much. Brew with it and pay attention to changes in efficiency, foam stability and body. If there are problems that you didn’t have before we can take a closer look at the malt again.

Kai
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: denny on March 10, 2010, 04:24:19 PM
Who's the maltster?  Like Kai, I've never seen anything like that.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: a10t2 on March 10, 2010, 09:17:00 PM
As for the maltster, when it comes to their efficiency they are actually interested in letting the barley germinate as little as possible since the growth of the embryo consumes starch. The skill of the maltster is being able to let it germinate just long enough to satisfy the modification demands of the customer.

Good point. I was thinking more about trying to maximize enzyme content, since their biggest customers are probably the adjunct brewing industry - macro lagers, and maybe liquor as well.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: dean on March 10, 2010, 09:34:55 PM
Its been a few years now but I read an article on malting grain and the spires are supposed to be rolled off after germination when the grain is dried or kilned.  The pictures make it look like they germinated after being kilned or were never kilned?  What brand is it?
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: uthristy on March 10, 2010, 09:46:45 PM
I've seen that in Dingemans Pilsner & Muntons MO.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 10, 2010, 10:39:56 PM
It was Thomas Fawcett, Marris Otter.  It is new to me too.  I'll keep cool about it and see
what the end product turns out. If it is fine, I wont think any more of it.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: a10t2 on March 10, 2010, 11:04:48 PM
Good to know... I have an unopened sack of TF MO in the garage. I'll have to check it out.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: Kaiser on March 11, 2010, 02:35:36 PM
This might be something that happens with traditional floor malting. Even the most skilled malster may not be able to ensure even germination w/o the use of a lot of automation and technology.

dean, I think you confuse the spire with the rootlets. It is the rootlets that are removed after drying. The spire generally stays inside the husk and even if it grows out it seems quite sturdy and won't easily break off.

Kai
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: Kaiser on March 11, 2010, 02:42:16 PM
posted into the wrong thread. Again :(

Kai
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: dean on March 11, 2010, 02:46:56 PM
dean, I think you confuse the spire with the rootlets. It is the rootlets that are removed after drying. The spire generally stays inside the husk and even if it grows out it seems quite sturdy and won't easily break off.

Kai

Yeh, I meant the growth coming out of the seed... endosperm?  Anyway yes, they dry (kiln?)  the grain and tumble it (not roll it) to separate it from the malted grain.
Title: Re: Is there a possibility of "Over malting" grain?
Post by: bluesman on March 11, 2010, 04:11:56 PM
Good to know... I have an unopened sack of TF MO in the garage. I'll have to check it out.

+1

I'm glad I read this thread as I also have a new bag of TF MO from North Country. TF produces tons of grain and I'm hoping this is a freak thing. I'm not sure of the effects of this condition and hope they are insignificant.