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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: SiameseMoose on March 09, 2010, 08:07:25 PM

Title: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: SiameseMoose on March 09, 2010, 08:07:25 PM
"Just because it's infected, does not make it Belgian!

Written by Ray Spangler (Homebrewer of the Year, in 1987, I think).

Fortunately it was not on one of my scoresheets ;D

I was reminded of this by a beer I judged Saturday. I was sorely tempted to use it, but plagiarizing the founder of the Bloatarian Brewing League was too sacrilegious. Anyone else remember any good comments?
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: sienabrewer on March 09, 2010, 08:16:55 PM
I'll offer something that just made me laugh and prove how subjective beer sensory perception is.  Two comments, from two different judges, from the same competition, judging the same beer:  (1) Good, long lasting head retention, perfect for style, good carbonation; (2) Head quickly receded, exhibits very low carbonation for the style. 

I submitted only two bottles, one of which had to be for the BOS round.  Being that this beer didn't make the BOS round they clearly were pouring from the same bottle. 
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: a10t2 on March 09, 2010, 08:19:53 PM
Most of the ones that stick out in my mind are from times a judge made assumptions about process. "Excessive residual sweetness - use only light extract next time" on an AG barleywine is a favorite.

I also have half a dozen where you can read through the eraser marks that the original difference in scores was 10+ points.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: afunk2 on March 09, 2010, 08:27:46 PM
Two comments, sources to remain anonymous:

Great, now I'm going to get diarrhea.  Thanks.

This beer reminds me of my parent's divorce.  I was ten. 
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: denny on March 09, 2010, 09:37:05 PM
"Damn you, I wanted to have children someday".

Actually, that comment wasn't actually written...a friend told me that's what he would have liked to have written!
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: hamiltont on March 09, 2010, 09:53:02 PM
I had a score sheet come back where the two judges were very much at odds. One ranked it quite high & the other quite low. One of the judges documented the ensuing conversation up the side of the score sheet and then on to the back side. It was quite a read. One judge was a novice & the other a national.  Interestingly the novice stood up for what he felt was right for the style.  They eventually compromised, but closer to the novice's original score.  I of course agreed with the novice... ;D
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: tom on March 10, 2010, 02:24:54 AM
My first Imperial IPA, before it was a real style. 2 national ranked BJCP judges. One "Too Hoppy!", the other "Too malty!". Sounds about right to me.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: brewmasternpb on March 10, 2010, 02:46:10 AM
My favorite so far was "tastes like vienna sausages".  I give him points for not just saying "meaty", he actually picked the type of meat.  If I got a comment like some of the above comments, I would report it to the BJCP.  On their website, they make a big deal about respecting brewers,  I don't think they'd like the "divorce" comment.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: dbeechum on March 10, 2010, 05:41:44 AM
I don't enter that many competitions, but I like to judge, especially the weird beer categories (shocker!) . I think one of the best one's I gave was for a "Viking Yule Ale as translated from Rune such and such of the such and such laws".

It was an interesting beer, but wasn't balanced right for my taste, so being in mid morning smart ass mode I wrote something along the lines of "This tastes to me like you mistranslated one part of the law." And then proceed to give real feedback. So to the brewer who entered that beer, I'm sorry, there are just times I can't resist the call of the smartass.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: redbeerman on March 10, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
I entered a blond ale in the NHC and got two opposing comments from two different judges.  One was "too hoppy" and the other was not enough hops.  I asssme it was balance they were talking about, since the style is not inherently hoppy.  It did pretty well, but shows that results can be confusing to the brewer.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MDixon on March 10, 2010, 12:53:37 PM
I had a score sheet come back where the two judges were very much at odds. One ranked it quite high & the other quite low. One of the judges documented the ensuing conversation up the side of the score sheet and then on to the back side. It was quite a read. One judge was a novice & the other a national.  Interestingly the novice stood up for what he felt was right for the style.  They eventually compromised, but closer to the novice's original score.  I of course agreed with the novice... ;D

I penned just such a sheet (up the side, probably on the back noting we could not agree), but don't remember compromising my score at all. We stayed at odds...
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 10, 2010, 01:04:59 PM
A Pliny the Elder clone brewed about 5 years ago was judged "Too hoppy for style" in the DIPA category.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: rajraju on March 10, 2010, 02:43:56 PM
For a Belgian Wit Entry "Nice Dark Pee Color"

Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 10, 2010, 04:04:20 PM
Pours a magnificent greyish-green with a cotton candy head. Heavy lacing. Amazing floral aroma, with bubblegum and grapefruit. Nightmarish lemony palate, punctuated with tarragon and molasses. Tightly carbonated mouthfeel and very light finish. ;)
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: brewboy on March 10, 2010, 05:35:45 PM
I don't enter comps, but if I gave up good beer and money to do so, I'd expect constructive criticism, rather than sharp wit.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: a10t2 on March 10, 2010, 09:12:14 PM
I don't enter comps, but if I gave up good beer and money to do so, I'd expect constructive criticism, rather than sharp wit.

In a perfect world you could get both. ;)
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: alikocho on March 11, 2010, 02:45:56 AM
Judging an IPA in a competition recently, I was tempted to write ' try using hops instead of cabbage next time'.  I didn't, because this wasn't a constructive way to put accross the vegetal characteristics the beer displayed and how the brewer might deal with them.  I suspected that the hops were less than fresh, but making suppositions isn't supposed to be the name of the game.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MrNate on March 11, 2010, 05:00:39 AM
Now I remember why I don't enter comps.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: brewboy on March 11, 2010, 05:03:31 AM
Quote
Now I remember why I don't enter comps. 

+1000
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: Beertracker on March 11, 2010, 05:08:05 AM
My favorite ones are always "too fruity for style" regarding a fruit beer with no sub-style declaration.  Those kind of asinine comments always make me laugh.   :D
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: roguejim on March 11, 2010, 09:49:47 AM
My favorite ones are always "too fruity for style" regarding a fruit beer with no sub-style declaration.  Those kind of asinine comments always make me laugh.   :D

I doubt I'd be laughing.  More like I'd be pissed at wasting the beer and entry money.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MDixon on March 11, 2010, 01:19:08 PM
My favorite ones are always "too fruity for style" regarding a fruit beer with no sub-style declaration.  Those kind of asinine comments always make me laugh.   :D

Shouldn't have been entered in the first place without a style declaration:
Quote
THE ENTRANT MUST SPECIFY THE UNDERLYING BEER STYLE AS WELL AS THE TYPE OF FRUIT(S) USED.
just sayin  ;)
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: stout_fan on March 11, 2010, 02:59:40 PM
I entered My Maudite clone under Belgian Specialty 16E. http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style16.php#1e (http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style16.php#1e)
I was told that Maudite is not a Belgian beer. However, it was an excellent clone of Maudite. Major dings on score for that one.

I wonder if judges ever look at the reference beers in the BJCP guide?
Hint: it's on line two. Duh!

All the other five entries of mine suffered from similar jackass comments.
So I just quit entering competitions. Why waste the time and money?
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: brewboy on March 11, 2010, 03:02:38 PM
Quote
Why waste the time and money?

My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: Beertracker on March 11, 2010, 03:43:28 PM
My favorite ones are always "too fruity for style" regarding a fruit beer with no sub-style declaration.  Those kind of asinine comments always make me laugh.   :D

Shouldn't have been entered in the first place without a style declaration:
Quote
THE ENTRANT MUST SPECIFY THE UNDERLYING BEER STYLE AS WELL AS THE TYPE OF FRUIT(S) USED.
just sayin  ;)

My point exactly!  What "underlying beer style" is New Glarus Belgian Red or Raspberry Tart exactly?  If you ask Dan, he'll tell you it's a fruit beer. Duh!  ::)   
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: majorvices on March 11, 2010, 03:49:13 PM
I think comps can be a good way for you to get feedback on your beer (sometimes) but, for me, I am far too lazy and frugal to ship my beer. But more than that I am far too greedy! When it comes down to those last two or three beers that I feel are good enough to send out for a comp I would much rather prefer to drink them myself! I'm bummed out enough when I hit the bottom of a keg let alone to think there could have been three more glassfulls in there!  ;D
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: bluesman on March 11, 2010, 04:33:19 PM
....but you have to play to win.  8)
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: denny on March 11, 2010, 04:38:25 PM
My point exactly!  What "underlying beer style" is New Glarus Belgian Red or Raspberry Tart exactly?  If you ask Dan, he'll tell you it's a fruit beer. Duh!  ::)   

I think it's an invalid comparison, though.  Commercial brewers can brew to any (or no) style they want to and call it what they want to.  The purpose of a homebrew comp is to compare beers that are in the same style category, therefore a baseline is needed.  Now, if you don't want to do that, you can of course do like the commercial breweries and brew what you like, call it what you like, and not enter comps.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: makemehoppy on March 11, 2010, 04:47:52 PM
I realize competitions are very subjective. I think if the flight were tasted in a different order you would get different results. However, I like to enter my local club competition for two reasons:
1. I do get some constructive feedback on my beers. Even if the judges disagree on the beer I can learn from each of their comments.
2. This is the major fundraiser for the club. This year I'm entering 4 beers at a cost of $24 and for that I get an entire day of great entertainment, learning and as a steward I get to also taste the beers. Lunch is provided and door prizes are there for another $5 purchase of raffle tickets. Best $29 I'll spend in a long time.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: Beertracker on March 11, 2010, 04:51:29 PM
My point exactly!  What "underlying beer style" is New Glarus Belgian Red or Raspberry Tart exactly?  If you ask Dan, he'll tell you it's a fruit beer. Duh!  ::)  

I think it's an invalid comparison, though.  Commercial brewers can brew to any (or no) style they want to and call it what they want to.  The purpose of a homebrew comp is to compare beers that are in the same style category, therefore a baseline is needed.  Now, if you don't want to do that, you can of course do like the commercial breweries and brew what you like, call it what you like, and not enter comps.

So if I made a New Glarus Belgian Red clone & enter it into a competition and it's listed as one of the commercial examples. What would you suggest I list as an underlying style? I'm sorry, but I haven't been able to find a Wisconsin Cherry Ale anywhere in the guidelines. I think that's a fairly valid point, wouldn't you agree?  ???  
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: denny on March 11, 2010, 04:54:42 PM

So if I made a New Glarus Belgian Red clone & enter it into a competition and it's listed as one of the commercial examples. What would you suggest I list as an underlying style? I'm sorry, but I haven't been able to find a Wisconsin Cherry Ale anywhere in the guidelines. I think that's a fairly valid point, does anyone agree?  ???   

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are beers we make that don't fit anywhere in the guidelines and there fore can't really be entered into a comp. 
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: Beertracker on March 11, 2010, 05:10:25 PM

So if I made a New Glarus Belgian Red clone & enter it into a competition and it's listed as one of the commercial examples. What would you suggest I list as an underlying style? I'm sorry, but I haven't been able to find a Wisconsin Cherry Ale anywhere in the guidelines. I think that's a fairly valid point, does anyone agree?  ???   

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are beers we make that don't fit anywhere in the guidelines and there fore can't really be entered into a comp.

I understand what you're saying Denny, but when a beer is listed as a commercial example of a particular style then one would think you should be able to "clone it" and do reasonably well in a competition.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: mrbounds on March 11, 2010, 05:19:54 PM
My favorites are:

1:I would gladly drink more than one  :)

2: I get an alcohol warmth with every sip.

The beer won a gold medal by the way!
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: denny on March 11, 2010, 05:25:39 PM
I understand what you're saying Denny, but when a beer is listed as a commercial example of a particular style then one would think you should be able to "clone it" and do reasonably well in a competition.

Can't disagree with that, Jeff.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: denny on March 11, 2010, 05:27:47 PM
My favorites are:

1:I would gladly drink more than one  :)

2: I get an alcohol warmth with every sip.

The beer won a gold medal by the way!

The scoresheet for NHC second round has these listed as checkboxes for overall impression...

I would finish this sample
I would drink a pint of this beer
I would pay money for this beer
Please send me the recipe!!!
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: bluesman on March 11, 2010, 07:51:00 PM
Yea Denny, I got "Please send me the recipe" on my second round Trad Bock last year which I was humbled by.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: ryan6458 on March 12, 2010, 06:03:13 AM
 On  the same scoresheet the judge said that my O-fest was "slightly astringent" and then later said it had "good mouthfeel." Still a little baffled by that one!

I also entered my Ruination clone into the IPA category just for kicks and it was ding-ed for not being hoppy enough for the style!! :o  Yeah, I guess nearly 4lbs of hops per barrel and 120ibus is a little underhopped for an IPA. LMAO! Now when I enter comps I don't expect to do well. What I'm looking for is entertainment from the scoresheets. Don't get me wrong, judging beer is  A LOT harder than most people think, but sometimes judges are either getting entries mixed up or they're just plain crazy!
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: Beertracker on March 12, 2010, 04:18:54 PM
On  the same scoresheet the judge said that my O-fest was "slightly astringent" and then later said it had "good mouthfeel." Still a little baffled by that one!

That's one of my pet peeves when giving a BJCP CEP class or grading exams. I emphasize keeping comments consistent and structured because those can be very annoying & even frustrating as a brewer/entrant. I know that really bothers me when I receive scoresheets with contradicting comments/scores.  >:(

Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: denny on March 12, 2010, 04:21:11 PM
sometimes judges are either getting entries mixed up or they're just plain crazy!

Well, I know which it is for me....
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: dbeechum on March 12, 2010, 04:35:45 PM
I emphasize keeping comments consistent and structured because those can be very annoying & even frustrating as a brewer/entrant.

Whenever we're teaching one thing I try and drill into the students' heads - don't assume you know anything about the ingredients or process. Several people have already posted comments where the judges had something completely wrong. It turns the entrant off from listening to anything else you may say. Its unfortunate.

So the lesson from me is always: "couch your comments in 'did you' constructs or 'if you'", e.g. "if you used extract, try using paler extracts or shifting the addition towards the end of the boil" Then your AG entrant isn't going to automatically file your words in the "judge who doesn't know shinola" category.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: brewmasternpb on March 13, 2010, 07:43:25 AM
I posted earlier on in this thread, and would like to point out that constructive criticism is way more prevalent than Witty B.S.  I do think the BJCP does a great job.  I've never had a comment that wasn't constructive.  I've had judges' comments that were contradictory, but that's to be expected.  I will continue to "waste the beer and money" on entering comps.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MDixon on March 13, 2010, 11:51:49 AM
I find most of the people who make the waste beer and money comments either got back sheets they felt substandard from a previous competition or cannot brew to style to save their butt... ;D
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MrNate on March 13, 2010, 07:27:41 PM
I find most of the people who make the waste beer and money comments either got back sheets they felt substandard from a previous competition or cannot brew to style to save their butt... ;D


How did you find that?
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: ryan6458 on March 14, 2010, 02:22:24 AM
I find most of the people who make the waste beer and money comments either got back sheets they felt substandard from a previous competition or cannot brew to style to save their butt... ;D


How did you find that?

Lots and lots of "research." No gut feelings, just cold hard facts.  :)
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: The Professor on March 14, 2010, 02:36:53 AM
Quote
Now I remember why I don't enter comps. 

+1000

+100k. I'm not into comps really...not opposed certainly, as long as one doesn't take it very seriously.  So I've only entered a few but  had great fun judging dozens of them (and managed to taste some very good beers in the process).

My favorite received comment  is one I have mentioned once or twice before in other threads, regarding my Scotch Ale/Wee Heavy;   I don't have the sheet in front of me (though I did save it somewhere) but in essence it said that I had entered it in the wrong category because it wasn't hoppy enough to be a Scotch Ale .   :o
...o----kay....
thank you.  next please....
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: babalu87 on March 14, 2010, 04:10:46 AM
My favorites are:

1:I would gladly drink more than one  :)

2: I get an alcohol warmth with every sip.

The beer won a gold medal by the way!

The scoresheet for NHC second round has these listed as checkboxes for overall impression...

I would finish this sample
I would drink a pint of this beer
I would pay money for this beer
Please send me the recipe!!!

Best comment I've ever got

and yes I did
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MDixon on March 14, 2010, 12:51:07 PM
I find most of the people who make the waste beer and money comments either got back sheets they felt substandard from a previous competition or cannot brew to style to save their butt... ;D


How did you find that?

As was stated, from YEARS of experience. I assume you have a point somewhere, I'm old, spell it out... ;)
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MrNate on March 14, 2010, 04:30:51 PM
Assuming I have a point is rarely a good idea.

But given the choice of data or opinions, I tend to put more stock in the former. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: bo_gator on March 14, 2010, 11:24:26 PM
I'm old

You're no where near as old as you want to be. I did enjoy judging that flight with you the other day...all four of the beers ;D

I even learned someting about underfilled bottles
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: bo_gator on March 14, 2010, 11:33:53 PM
My best line came from an informal tasting In hosted a year or two ago when I won the NB forum Christmas beer pass. It was " your beer smells like oatmeal cookies,  but tastes like ass"

One thing I have noticed has not been mentioned in this thread yet, and it is no excuse for judges. Sometimes due to poor management of a competition judges have to judge two flights of above average alcohol content beers, and the comments on the second flight beers may suffer due to this.

I have had to judge both 16 a-e (Belgian and French ales), and India Pale Ale a-c on the same day, and when the 16 flight is dominated by big "E's" (Belgian specialty) and IPAs are mostly American and imperials the comments got a lot sloppier than I wanted them to. But then again so did my overall attitude ::)
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MDixon on March 15, 2010, 12:14:46 PM
Assuming I have a point is rarely a good idea.

But given the choice of data or opinions, I tend to put more stock in the former. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

I'm guessing you are of the latter vintage as far as reasons for not entering comps  ;D

There is one other reason to not enter competition and it is the reason I personally don't enter anymore, well, actually three reasons. 1 - I have enough ribbons at home I don't need anymore, 2 - I am my beers harshest critic, 3 - you don't get to sit on the BOS panel when you enter and win your category.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: stout_fan on March 15, 2010, 12:27:56 PM
I understand what you're saying Denny, but when a beer is listed as a commercial example of a particular style then one would think you should be able to "clone it" and do reasonably well in a competition.

Can't disagree with that, Jeff.
Really,
Try doing a Black Cat clone. Mine was dead on. An excellent mild.
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style11.php#1a

BAM!!!
Too dark for style.
It's not just "a" reference beer. It's the FIRST reference beer.

And I have put down on a score sheet "I'd love the recipe for this beer".
Nobody's taken me up on the request yet. :(
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MDixon on March 15, 2010, 12:32:41 PM
Too dark for style? Was it pitch black like a swarzbier? Anyway, the commercial examples listed are not necessarily 50 pt beers, just ones which are representative of the style.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: MrNate on March 15, 2010, 01:46:51 PM
Assuming I have a point is rarely a good idea.

But given the choice of data or opinions, I tend to put more stock in the former. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

I'm guessing you are of the latter vintage as far as reasons for not entering comps  ;D

There is one other reason to not enter competition and it is the reason I personally don't enter anymore, well, actually three reasons. 1 - I have enough ribbons at home I don't need anymore, 2 - I am my beers harshest critic, 3 - you don't get to sit on the BOS panel when you enter and win your category.

No reason to go trying to hurt my feelings now. You have a great day.
Title: Re: Favorite Scoresheet Comment
Post by: stout_fan on March 16, 2010, 03:44:43 PM
Too dark for style? Was it pitch black like a swarzbier? Anyway, the commercial examples listed are not necessarily 50 pt beers, just ones which are representative of the style.
Not as bad a swartzbeir, but it was dark, ummmm like Black Cat is supposed to be.