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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: nateo on June 27, 2013, 03:04:51 PM

Title: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: nateo on June 27, 2013, 03:04:51 PM
Not sure why, but it really drives me crazy when people say "Say-sawn."

It's sɛ.zɔ̃, where s is just like s, ɛ is like the eh sound in "celery" or "men,"  z is like z, and ɔ̃ is a nasal vowel that sounds like "own" if you cut off the n on the end.

So it's kind of like "seh-zohn" with a nasal n on the end.

You can listen here, on the left-hand column, click the little play button next to saison: http://dict.leo.org/frde/index_de.html#/search=saison&searchLoc=0&resultOrder=basic&multiwordShowSingle=on
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: Joe Sr. on June 27, 2013, 03:43:52 PM
I just say "one of those" so I can avoid the pronunciation all together.  It's like Duvel, I'm never sure if I'm saying it right...
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: ccfoo242 on June 27, 2013, 04:24:05 PM
Bone jor no!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: nateo on June 27, 2013, 04:28:27 PM
I just say "one of those" so I can avoid the pronunciation all together.  It's like Duvel, I'm never sure if I'm saying it right...

Duvel is a weird one, because some Dutch-speaking areas pronounce the v as f, and some pronounce v as v. In north Netherlands, especially Amsterdam, v=f is more common, and v=v is maybe a little more common in Belgium, but as far as I can tell, there's no rhyme or reason to it.

So I think you could say either "Doofle" or "Doovle" and it'd be "correct." The "el" is pronounced like the le in double. 

Now, the β/ʋ/v issue is even crazier. I can't even hear the difference between them, really, but Dutch people say they can. Also, sometimes w=w, sometimes w=β/ʋ/v
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: Joe Sr. on June 27, 2013, 04:30:41 PM
Bone jor no!

Mercy bow cups!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: cornershot on June 27, 2013, 04:36:55 PM
It wasn't long ago Americans were calling french fries "freedom fries" and boycotting French's mustard (not me). Maybe some Americans are afraid of sounding French?
Maybe saysawn (John Wayne voice)  is just the American version like the Aussies calling Syrah wine "Shiraz". Kind of gives it a new identity- which it deserves. Surely today's big saysawns don't resemble the original, much smaller, nasally versions?
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: nateo on June 27, 2013, 04:43:54 PM
Well, IMO it's better to call them "American farmhouse ales" or just "farmhouse ales" than butcher the original, French word.

And don't get me started on "hefeweizen". . .
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: cornershot on June 27, 2013, 05:03:30 PM
A plus tard!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 27, 2013, 05:08:10 PM
Bone jor no!

Mercy bow cups!
Wee wee mon-sewer.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 27, 2013, 05:29:40 PM
In the south we cannot help but ruin the proper pronunciation of words, especially if they are French. You live south enough to know.

At least you don't have to hang out in Texas courts. That might be the worst. It is considered poor etiquette to pronounce French correctly in front of a judge:

Voir dire should be pronounced like "vwa dee" but in Texas courts 100% of the time it is pronounced like "vo-ire die errrrrr" and it's like you get bonus points for finding new syllables to add.

Daubert factors are factors used to determine whether an expert witness is actually an expert. Daubert was a party to the original suit where the factors were described and that is the shorthand reference to the factors. Daubert is pronounced like "daw bear" in civilized parts of the world. In Texas it is "daw bert" (like Robert with a D).

Makes my brain ache enough that I have to drink many say sawns.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: klickitat jim on June 27, 2013, 05:32:04 PM
Season
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: thebigbaker on June 27, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
Season

That's funny!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: hoodie on June 27, 2013, 06:06:32 PM
It's the same thing with saaz or zatz. Fahitas fajitas. As long as they know what your talking about.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: thebigbaker on June 27, 2013, 06:09:50 PM
Not sure why it's so bad to mis-pronounce a word from a different language when you don't speak that language.  Even in the US each region has different ways to pronounce certain English words.  It doesn't bother me if someone doesn't pronounce a word "correctly." 

My family is from Hawaii and although we don't expect people to pronounce most of those words correctly,it is a litte funny listening to people pronounce Hawaiian words.  Of course, when my wife (who is from Iowa) does it I think it's cute :D  One of my uncles, who works in the tourist industry, loves to give directions to tourists and say the street names really fast.  They all get a good laugh and he then will write down how to get to their destinations.

When I first lived down on the Gulf Coast, I butchered some of those cajun words, even after being corrected 100 times, I just couldn't get some of those words right. 

I just don't think I can bring myself to start pronouncing "Saison" with that nasally ending to it.  I'll stick with saying "say-zahn," which is how people I know here in Denver say it.  Now if I ever move to France...
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: Slowbrew on June 27, 2013, 06:34:21 PM
It drives my wife crazy that my Dad would replace bat-trees in the radio and my Mom warshes clothes. 

And don't even get started on the "make the bed" v. "dress the bed" argument.  Are they loose-meats, taverns of maid-rites?  Do you go uptown or downtown?  Soda or pop?  And so many more.

Language is fun.

Paul
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: erockrph on June 27, 2013, 06:36:33 PM
I don't know... to me that's like news reporters that bust into an accent whenever they pronounce a hispanic name. It's jarring and sounds pretentious. I kinda split the difference and sort of go "seigh-zawn" or occasionally "seigh-ssawn". But I'm French Canadian so I kind of get a pass on mangling continental French anyways...
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: thebigbaker on June 27, 2013, 06:44:30 PM
Language is fun.

+1!  On my father's side is Hawaiian, Samoan and Filipino.  My mother's side are from North Carolina and "Gawgia."  My wife's family are all Czech and Irish farmers from NE Iowa.  Next time we are all together again, I'm gonna have to record some of those conversations!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 27, 2013, 06:45:55 PM
I don't know... to me that's like news reporters that bust into an accent whenever they pronounce a hispanic name. It's jarring and sounds pretentious. I kinda split the difference and sort of go "seigh-zawn" or occasionally "seigh-ssawn". But I'm French Canadian so I kind of get a pass on mangling continental French anyways...
+ 1. 
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: thebigbaker on June 27, 2013, 06:48:34 PM
I don't know... to me that's like news reporters that bust into an accent whenever they pronounce a hispanic name. It's jarring and sounds pretentious. I kinda split the difference and sort of go "seigh-zawn" or occasionally "seigh-ssawn". But I'm French Canadian so I kind of get a pass on mangling continental French anyways...

That reminds me of Food Network's Giada De Laurentiis.  She speaks with a "normal" American-English dialect then overly pronounces the Italian.  This drives my wife crazy, however, I'm not listening to anything that Giada is saying ::)
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: klickitat jim on June 27, 2013, 06:51:45 PM
+2

Circa 1985... Nicka rrrrrrrrragua
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 27, 2013, 06:54:21 PM
+5 to Giada.  I'm with you.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: erockrph on June 27, 2013, 07:10:19 PM
+5 to Giada.  I'm with you.

Yeah, her Italian is about as pretentious as her way-overly toothy "don't let your gums dry out" permagrin.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: tonyp on June 27, 2013, 07:40:11 PM
I pronounce it Say-zon, because i'm not french and that's how it looks to me like it should be pronounced, even if its wrong! :)
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: Slowbrew on June 27, 2013, 08:03:38 PM
I pronounce it Say-zon, because i'm not french and that's how it looks to me like it should be pronounced, even if its wrong! :)

+1 - Right dair wit you.  8^)
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: bboy9000 on June 27, 2013, 08:16:15 PM
I thought in French language the consonant at the end of a word isn't pronounced unless it is followed by a vowel.  Wouldn't Paris be "pair-ee?"  Not that it really matters.  From an linguistic anthropological perspective as long as a group of people understand the message then the language is valid.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: bboy9000 on June 27, 2013, 08:20:49 PM
Even though Texas is a "whole other country" I run into the same thing in Missouri where we have towns with French names but you are looked at as either a fool or pretentious for pronouncing Versailles as "Ver-Sai" or Creve Couer as "Krev-ka."
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: Joe Sr. on June 27, 2013, 08:39:50 PM
Even though Texas is a "whole other country" I run into the same thing in Missouri where we have towns with French names but you are looked at as either a fool or pretentious for pronouncing Versailles as "Ver-Sai" or Creve Couer as "Krev-ka."

In southern Illinois you're marked as an outsider if you don't pronounce Marseilles as "Mar-sails." Cairo is "Kay-row."
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: punatic on June 27, 2013, 08:41:05 PM
Thank God it's not that goofus sounding ply knee the elder!   ::)
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: nateo on June 27, 2013, 08:44:27 PM
Re: Missouri, yeah, it's baffling here. Versailles = Ver-sales, Lebanon = Leb-uh-nin, Kimbrough = Kimbroo. People are really assholes here if you don't know how to say things in their peculiar, messed-up way. It's not bad in the cities, but outside of KC/STL/Springfield, if you speak standard American English, people are pretty rude. I swear, when I moved here from CO people treated me like I was a Martian.

In CO, everyone said "Say-zahn" which is probably why it's so weird for me to hear everyone say "Say-sawn" here, with a stress on the middle s. Say-zahn is at least closer.

And yeah, I hear you on the whole "correct pronunciation sounds pretentious" thing. If you order a croissant from an entrepreneur, with proper French pronunciation, you'll sound pretentious. I think it's just as pretentious to go out of your way to deliberately mangle the French, like RAM described in Texas court.

@Bboy - the n is like, barely pronounced, in your nose, not with your tongue touching the top of your mouth, like a "regular" n. For the nasal n, you tongue shouldn't have to move.   
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: euge on June 27, 2013, 08:48:29 PM
Say-Zon?

I was constantly teased when working in Las Vegas for my Texan y'alls or yawls. Sorry, can't help the way we say things. It is what it be.

But when the waiter corrected me at Drai's for saying Belgian endive~in-dive with "it's awn-deev" it nearly got nasty.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: nateo on June 27, 2013, 08:58:37 PM
But when the waiter corrected me at Drai's for saying Belgian endive~in-dive with "it's awn-deev" it nearly got nasty.

Yeah, that's a really bad idea. I've been a waiter, and I've sold ferr-in sounding named skis and bikes. The appropriate thing to do is to pronounce it correctly yourself, when it comes up naturally, but not correct them unless they ask you how it's said. The worst thing you can do is mimic the customer's bad pronunciation, because it sounds like you're mocking them.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: bboy9000 on June 27, 2013, 09:04:40 PM
Its confusing here in Missouri ("ee" not "uh"). After working at a convenience store in Springfield, MO for three years I caught myself saying "ya'll". Without trying to be a local.  It just came out!  Then after college I'm dating a girl from St. Louis- old French history there- and got blasted for saying "Krev-Ka (kuh).  I just assumed the 8th largest metro area in the US with a French history would say it that way.  Whatever.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: euge on June 27, 2013, 09:21:42 PM
Misery ;)
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: narvin on June 27, 2013, 09:22:25 PM
Saying nasal vowels when you're speaking English is silly.  The word Saison has been used enough to be considered an English word of French origin.  Don't use phonemes that don't exist in the middle of an English sentence unless you want to sound pretentious.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: nateo on June 28, 2013, 03:18:24 AM
Saying nasal vowels when you're speaking English is silly.  The word Saison has been used enough to be considered an English word of French origin.  Don't use phonemes that don't exist in the middle of an English sentence unless you want to sound pretentious.

Actually, if you want to get all technical here, nasal vowels are used in American English, appearing before nasal consonants, in words like "man," "can't" and "then," and "embalm." In British English they're not all nasalized, noticeably "can't." You probably don't notice how they're nasalized because you're a native American English speaker.

If you've ever heard someone who uses African American vernacular English, or some related southern accents say "Hey man" you've definitely heard a nasal "n."
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: vinnieb on June 28, 2013, 03:47:39 AM
I just say "say-zon",   I'm from NY, and have one of those weird accents anyway.  I can not be expected to pronounce foreign words (to me) with a an accent if its not my native tongue.  It sounds pretentious and snarky IMO.  When St Pats day comes around I don't order Corn beef and cabbage in an Irish brogue.  I am not Giada and I refuse to erupt into a horse tooth, 5-head, perma-smile, regional diction if I am not originally born and raised there. 


M'ERICA!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: theoman on June 28, 2013, 08:49:34 AM
Saying nasal vowels when you're speaking English is silly.  The word Saison has been used enough to be considered an English word of French origin.  Don't use phonemes that don't exist in the middle of an English sentence unless you want to sound pretentious.

Actually, if you want to get all technical here, nasal vowels are used in American English, appearing before nasal consonants, in words like "man," "can't" and "then," and "embalm." In British English they're not all nasalized, noticeably "can't." You probably don't notice how they're nasalized because you're a native American English speaker.

If you've ever heard someone who uses African American vernacular English, or some related southern accents say "Hey man" you've definitely heard a nasal "n."

Absolutely! I didn't realize how nasally American English is until I was living outside of the country for a while. If I'm out somewhere, I can hear an American coming a mile away, even if I can't hear what they're saying. The nasal-ness seems even more pronounced in women.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: theoman on June 28, 2013, 08:59:27 AM
I think it doesn't really matter, but for some reason, some pronunciations really bother me. Saison isn't one of them. HOEgarden for Hoegaarden does. Beer geeks should know it's HOOgarden. I'm ok with the hard 'g'. DuVELL bothers me, too, but that's just the Flemish nationalist in me coming out.

On the other hand, Belgians have pale ale, but the actual meaning of the words got lost some where, so they pronounce it "pellell". Kinda funny.

I want to rip out my radio when I hear the DJ on the French station say Stevie Ray Vah-gaun-ah. It's your freakin' job to know that the 'g' is silent.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: AmandaK on June 28, 2013, 12:31:17 PM
Re: Missouri, yeah, it's baffling here. Versailles = Ver-sales, Lebanon = Leb-uh-nin, Kimbrough = Kimbroo. People are really assholes here if you don't know how to say things in their peculiar, messed-up way. It's not bad in the cities, but outside of KC/STL/Springfield, if you speak standard American English, people are pretty rude. I swear, when I moved here from CO people treated me like I was a Martian.

Why all the hate on Missouri, guys? We're not all inbred hoosiers!

BTW, my boss is an Englishman. We discover new ways of pronouncing words every day. The British phrases are the best. I am going to name my next English beer "The Dog's Danglers". :)
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: phillamb168 on June 28, 2013, 01:29:52 PM
How have I missed this thread? Oh right, I was moving.

Where did I move? Not too far, only ~2 miles from where I live now, which is, btw:



<--- here.

So I feel that I can speak with authority on some of these things.

I say 'Say'zoh(n)' where the N is just barely pronounced. The most common Saison around here is Saison Dupont, which, when pronouncing it, thanks to the sharp D of Dupont, makes it sound like 'say'zohn' with a somewhat existant 'n.'

In general, when pronouncing French words in France, I use my French accent, which is pretty clean (although apparently hard English and American accents are considered 'sexy' but only if you're fluent, otherwise it's just annoying). For American or otherwise English words I'll use my American accent but sometimes for clarity's sake I'll say an English word in 'French,' so for example, burger becomes 'burhgeerh.'

Quote
I thought in French language the consonant at the end of a word isn't pronounced unless it is followed by a vowel.  Wouldn't Paris be "pair-ee?"

Yes, and that's how we pronounce it. But there are special rules - couer for example you pronounce the r, and in general even words like Paris get the consonant pronounced if the word is immediately followed by a word that starts with a vowel; so for example "Paris apres dark" would be "PearEES aprays dark"

A handy pronunciation guide:

Couer = 'Qehr', pronounce the R.

Voir Dire = "vwahr deeuhr'

@erockrph I love Quebecois words. "Gare ma voiture" becomes "Parker mon char' - 'char' means Tank in continental French. Also all women of 'interest' are 'blondes' which is really really old French.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 28, 2013, 01:43:01 PM
Re: Missouri, yeah, it's baffling here. Versailles = Ver-sales, Lebanon = Leb-uh-nin, Kimbrough = Kimbroo. People are really assholes here if you don't know how to say things in their peculiar, messed-up way. It's not bad in the cities, but outside of KC/STL/Springfield, if you speak standard American English, people are pretty rude. I swear, when I moved here from CO people treated me like I was a Martian.

Why all the hate on Missouri, guys? We're not all inbred hoosiers!

BTW, my boss is an Englishman. We discover new ways of pronouncing words every day. The British phrases are the best. I am going to name my next English beer "The Dog's Danglers". :)
Ouch !
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: Joe Sr. on June 28, 2013, 02:23:09 PM
I want to rip out my radio when I hear the DJ on the French station say Stevie Ray Vah-gaun-ah. It's your freakin' job to know that the 'g' is silent.

Stevie Ray Vagina?

Say, son, you're pronouncing it wrong!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: erockrph on June 28, 2013, 03:07:12 PM
@erockrph I love Quebecois words. "Gare ma voiture" becomes "Parker mon char' - 'char' means Tank in continental French. Also all women of 'interest' are 'blondes' which is really really old French.

Unfortunately, even though I went to a private school in a primarily French-Canadian city, the French I learned in school was Parisian French. I took 5 years of French in school, and felt pretty comfortable with it back in the day, but I could never under stand a word of French that my méméres and pépéres spoke. The Canuck French is so drastically different from Parisian French.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: gymrat on June 28, 2013, 03:14:14 PM
http://www.pronouncehow.com/english/saison_pronunciation
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: erockrph on June 28, 2013, 03:23:05 PM
Even though Texas is a "whole other country" I run into the same thing in Missouri where we have towns with French names but you are looked at as either a fool or pretentious for pronouncing Versailles as "Ver-Sai" or Creve Couer as "Krev-ka."

Up in northern NH there are a couple of towns like Berlin and Milan that are pronounced "BER-lin" and "MY-lin". I think it's pretty common in most areas to develop a local pronunciation of town names with foreign origins.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: punatic on June 28, 2013, 05:10:57 PM
I want to rip out my radio when I hear the DJ on the French station say Stevie Ray Vah-gaun-ah. It's your freakin' job to know that the 'g' is silent.

Stevie Ray Vah-gaun-ah and Doo-blay Troo-blay?   :o
Title: Re: Pronunciation of &quot;Saison&quot;
Post by: vinnieb on June 28, 2013, 05:20:24 PM

Unfortunately, even though I went to a private school in a primarily French-Canadian city, the French I learned in school was Parisian French. I took 5 years of French in school, and felt pretty comfortable with it back in the day, but I could never under stand a word of French that my méméres and pépéres spoke. The Canuck French is so drastically different from Parisian French.

I have the same issue when speaking German to my friends Austrian father, things get lost in translation. 
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 02, 2013, 02:16:34 PM
Maybe we should start calling it season instead of saison and stop trying to be fancy borrowing from other languages.
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 02, 2013, 02:21:14 PM
Maybe we should start calling it season instead of saison and stop trying to be fancy borrowing from other languages.

Etymologically, season is "from Old French seison (Modern French saison) "a sowing, planting," from Latin sationem (nominative satio) "a sowing," from past participle stem of serere "to sow" (see sow)."

So we're back to square one...
Title: Re: Pronunciation of &quot;Saison&quot;
Post by: klickitat jim on July 03, 2013, 12:27:35 AM
There is a saison, turn turn turn

Title: Re: Pronunciation of &quot;Saison&quot;
Post by: Jimmy K on July 03, 2013, 12:51:53 AM
Bone jor no!

Mercy bow cups!
It's "murky buckets"
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: redbeerman on July 03, 2013, 12:31:12 PM
Wee wee, maddamersell!
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: euge on July 03, 2013, 01:13:52 PM
Peachy merry-cone! Y'all. ;)
Title: Re: Pronunciation of &quot;Saison&quot;
Post by: klickitat jim on July 03, 2013, 05:08:57 PM
Once upon a time I had only read about saison. I stumbled onto a place with a huge variety of beers so I asked the guy if he had any.  "What?" I said it again.  "Nope, never heard of it... sorry. Oh, wait, do you mean (say-zoh)?" I said, uh ya, probably

I think I called it sigh-is-zen
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: guido on July 08, 2013, 10:44:26 PM
Saying Saison correctly is no problem, but I'll go to my grave wondering if I'm supposed to say "May-bock" or "My-bock."
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: punatic on July 09, 2013, 01:26:44 AM
Depends on if you're speaking German or English.  I just say YUM!   ;D
Title: Re: Pronunciation of "Saison"
Post by: redbeerman on July 09, 2013, 11:44:29 AM
Depends on if you're speaking German or English.  I just say YUM!   ;D

+1