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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: g-pa on March 10, 2010, 10:24:14 PM

Title: question about a mash schedule
Post by: g-pa on March 10, 2010, 10:24:14 PM
I am diong my first all grain soon ( it will be a weissbier)3lbs ger.pilsner malt/5.13lbs german wheat malt/1 lbs rice hulls and I understand that a protien rest is recomended with wheat but I only have a 5 gal mash tun should i just do a single infusion  or do a protin rest and sccrification and skip the mash out , or skip the protien rest ?what would be the best route to go (other than get a 10 gallon mash tun witch I should have done in the first place but I didn't). I don't know if I am just over complicating things for my first all grain batch.

thanks for any help
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: dzlater on March 10, 2010, 10:26:41 PM
First all grain?
I'd say keep it simple
single infusion
good luck
have fun
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: blatz on March 10, 2010, 10:29:27 PM
First all grain?
I'd say keep it simple
single infusion
good luck
have fun

+1

protein rests for wheat were recommended years ago, today they're kinda 'meh' - you don't *really* need it anymore.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: g-pa on March 11, 2010, 10:14:02 PM
I think I will try a protien rest at122* for 20 min and then Saccrification at 150* for 40 min with no mash out and see how it turns out, thats about all that will fit whats the worst that can happen?
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on March 12, 2010, 12:30:21 AM
I think I will try a protien rest at122* for 20 min and then Saccrification at 150* for 40 min with no mash out and see how it turns out, thats about all that will fit whats the worst that can happen?
Have unconverted starch.
You could hold 150F rest for 60 min or until converted.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: denny on March 12, 2010, 04:33:08 PM
You really don't need the p rest.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: g-pa on March 12, 2010, 04:57:35 PM
Everyone seems to be steering me back to a single infusion. but every thing I read says to do a protien rest with wheat, maybe I am reading to much and need to just put the books down and make some beer I just want to make the best beer I can make even if it is my first all grain.
I will probably just do a single infusion and be done with it
thanks for the help
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: denny on March 12, 2010, 05:11:13 PM
Why do you think you need a p rest?  Don't do it just because the books say so!  You have experienced brewers here telling you that it isn't necessary.  Isn't that enough to at least make you want to see?  :)  Keep it simple, then when you have a handle on things give the p rest a try.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: BrewArk on March 12, 2010, 05:48:31 PM
Success breeds success.  Go w/single infusion for the first batch.  Once you're comfortable and successful at that work to improve.  I use single infusions almost exclusively.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: g-pa on March 12, 2010, 08:46:34 PM

Yes I know you are all very experienced brewers. I don't mean to question or second guess any of you it is just in the past I have done batches that tuned out so-so and then find out later that if I would have read this or that I could have easily made it better 
I will take denny's advice though and keep it simple and have fun with this hobby, I guess I will do a single infusion and take it from there

thanks for the advice
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: blatz on March 12, 2010, 08:56:23 PM
when were the books you are reading published?
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on March 12, 2010, 09:00:08 PM
g-pa,
Practice makes perfect.
Brew often and brew lot.
Give beer away and brew more.
Spread the love around.

I am multi rest / decoction guy but I started with single infusion.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Kaiser on March 12, 2010, 09:31:07 PM
The data regarding the effects of protein rests on beer is rather conflicting and that’s why there is so much discussion. If it makes you feel better, just go for the protein rest. I don’t think it will hurt the quality of the beer.

What many of us say here is that it may make for a less stressful brew day if you go with a single infusion. And take if from there for future beers. You may actually brew the same beer w/ a protein rest for your second AG batch.

Kai
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: g-pa on March 12, 2010, 09:52:15 PM
German wheat beer by Eric Warner    1992
Beer Captured by Tess and Mark Szamatulski   2001, 2005
 How To Brew  by John Palmer           2006
and many more
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: blatz on March 12, 2010, 09:57:30 PM
German wheat beer by Eric Warner    1992

good info on the history of the style, but outdated in some spots.

Beer Captured by Tess and Mark Szamatulski   2001, 2005

garbage

How To Brew  by John Palmer           2006

great book, but I can't recall that he really promotes a protein rest in the new edition. *edit* in fact, here's a quote from chapter 14 (emphasis mine):

Quote
14.4 The Protein Rest and Modification
Modification is the term that describes the degree of breakdown during malting of the protein-starch matrix (endosperm) that comprises the bulk of the seed. Moderately-modified malts benefit from a protein rest to break down any remnant large proteins into smaller proteins and amino acids as well as to further release the starches from the endosperm. Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a beer, leaving it thin and watery.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Steverino on March 12, 2010, 10:56:50 PM
Why do you think you need a p rest?  Don't do it just because the books say so!  You have experienced brewers here telling you that it isn't necessary.  Isn't that enough to at least make you want to see?  :)  Keep it simple, then when you have a handle on things give the p rest a try.

Jeez, let the guy do a protein rest rest if he wants to. Don't do it because the books say so... really? I'll take your word there are lots of experienced brewers here. For sure, there are lots of opinionated brewers here. And truth be told, most of those brewers mash in coolers and would find it very difficult to do a multi-step mash. To me this smacks of--this is the way I do it, so you ought to too.
Just my .02
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: denny on March 12, 2010, 11:50:42 PM
To me this smacks of--this is the way I do it, so you ought to too.
Just my .02

Sorry, didn't mean to come across like that.  What I was getting at is that on your first AG brew, there's gonna be a lot of learning going on without the added complexity of a step mash.  In addition to that, based on the experience of many of the homebrewers who have tried it, there will be no detriment to the beer by not doing a protein rest.  I certainly didn't mean to discourage the OP, or anyone else, from ever using a step mash.  I do it myself from time to time (although I don't often use a p rest).  And yes, I do it in a cooler, which works just fine, thank you!  :)

And BTW, I've used a P rest on my last 3 all pils malt beers, just to once again see if I might be missing something.  As far as I can tell, there's no difference from when I made them without a p rest.  YMMV.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: g-pa on March 13, 2010, 12:18:25 AM
I did not take it that way denny, I understand exactly what your saying

thanks again for the advice
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on March 13, 2010, 03:38:26 AM
And truth be told, most of those brewers mash in coolers and would find it very difficult to do a multi-step mash.

I do mash in orange cooler and do step mashes.
There is nothing wrong about coolers.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4285031935_f8f9bc2316.jpg)
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Hokerer on March 13, 2010, 03:26:53 PM
And truth be told, most of those brewers mash in coolers and would find it very difficult to do a multi-step mash.

I do mash in orange cooler and do step mashes.
There is nothing wrong about coolers.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4285031935_f8f9bc2316.jpg)

Can we class that cooler sitting on a radiator as a "direct fired mash tun" ?   :P
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on March 14, 2010, 11:42:49 PM
And truth be told, most of those brewers mash in coolers and would find it very difficult to do a multi-step mash.

I do mash in orange cooler and do step mashes.
There is nothing wrong about coolers.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4285031935_f8f9bc2316.jpg)

Can we class that cooler sitting on a radiator as a "direct fired mash tun" ?   :P
Ha ha ha...

Nice try but no cigar.
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: g-pa on May 15, 2010, 11:35:57 PM
Just a update
 The beer turned out just GREAT,very-very good ( and with out a p-rest). The only problem I had was getting the mash to the right temp (came out way low and had adjust with more hot water). since then I now have a 10 gal. tun and hit the temp dead on. but it is keged and carbed now.and am very-very pleased with it. all and all good first all grain expierience. I have the 2nd batch in the fermanter now
Thanks for all the help and replies
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: mabrungard on May 19, 2010, 06:18:41 PM
I'm in total agreement regarding not performing a protein rest for almost every beer since modern malts are already highly modified. 

In the case of a Weissbier, there is a need for a low temperature rest to promote the formation of Ferulic Acid that will be used to create the 4 vinylguacol that is responsible for the clove character in these beers.  If I'm not mistaken, a rest in the 120 to 125 F range is good for Ferulic Acid formation.  If you don't really want cloveiness in your weissbier, then you don't need to do this step.

Since I don't want to overly degrade the barley component of my Weissbier grists, I typically mash only the wheat malt at the low temp and then add the barley as a separate doughin at a higher temp.

Martin
Title: Re: question about a mash schedule
Post by: Kaiser on May 19, 2010, 06:58:38 PM
In the case of a Weissbier, there is a need for a low temperature rest to promote the formation of Ferulic Acid that will be used to create the 4 vinylguacol that is responsible for the clove character in these beers.

I don't think that there is a need for that rest. You can also make sufficiently phenolic Weissbiers w/o this rest. The yeast choice plays a big role as well.

Since the release of ferulic acid is favored at higher pH (5.7+) and protoelytic enzymes like to work more on the sour side (~4.9-5.2) you can also limit the protein degradation by lowering the mash pH to 5.4 - 5.5 after you reached the sacharificantion rest.

Kai