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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: 1vertical on July 20, 2013, 11:37:04 PM

Title: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 20, 2013, 11:37:04 PM
This is my first brew with a BKyeast organism. It is the C3 isolate from Cantillon Iris beer.

OG is 1.052  Wert consist of  8# of gambrinus pils 1# of Victory and about a quart of cooked
steel cut oats and their cloudy liquid....I added about 4 dessert spoons of lactose for the brett to chew.
Hops were about 3/4 oz of Belma and 1/4 oz of Hallertau  SRM is about 7-8 color.....its in the bucket
and we shall see  how long the lag.  Anxious to see what happens, the starter liquid was at the vomit note stage....not bad but present and there was a little filmy looking pellicle? on the surface.
 
about 1/2 inch of spawn laying in the bottom of a half gallon mason jar some was white color
some had migrated to a tannish color I poured off most of the starter liquid which had cleared
fairly well and just used the yeast cake on the bottom.....fingers crossed.
 
Launch temp was in the 70's Brett likes it warm....?
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 21, 2013, 06:33:29 PM
Looks like it is slowly beginning to ferment as I have positive pressure
showing on the s-tube bubbler from the wert side.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: majorvices on July 21, 2013, 07:08:51 PM
Cool! Been brewing since 95 and love Brett and still haven't made a flipping all Brett beer. I was wondering about the temp too cause I'm gonna do one soon, too. I'll probably just keep it in the low 70s.

Is it common to add lacto? Never heard of that but it makes sense. I just don't like milk stouts and that sweetness makes me gag.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 21, 2013, 09:07:47 PM
Cool! Been brewing since 95 and love Brett and still haven't made a flipping all Brett beer. I was wondering about the temp too cause I'm gonna do one soon, too. I'll probably just keep it in the low 70s.

Is it common to add lacto? Never heard of that but it makes sense. I just don't like milk stouts and that sweetness makes me gag.

Well Keith, this is a frankenbier for sure.  I had no recipe.  What is common is the "turbid mash" that
they utilize for Lambics.  I read and studied cantillon Iris and they do this beer differently. It is my
understanding that b/c of the super attenuation of the brett, the body on the end result can
be thin, hence the steel cut oats  plus the lactos addition tho I read that brett can metabolise that as well. Perhaps it was only certain strains of brett but what the heck. This is going to be months out ain't no hurry up and enjoy beer. The small addition would not be very noticeable even if it did not get eaten.   I think your lower 70's are prolly a safe bet, but after some 90 degree saisons I have
had that were great, Dmitri said, brett likes it warm. The journey continues>>>>
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: majorvices on July 22, 2013, 01:00:24 AM
Right on. Best all Brett beer I ever had was from mikkeler. Second best from Tank Deer, who used to post on here. Still does from time to time I guess.

I'll be following your adventure here. Keep us posted.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 22, 2013, 02:18:03 AM
Keith, I read Tankdeer over at Burgundian Babble Belt hope he is doing well
he sure has a dancing banana....lol
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 22, 2013, 02:57:06 AM
Brett primary fermentations generally do not attenuate like brett in secondary. I'd be concerned that the lactose will make that beer a little too heavy if not a touch sweet.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: redbeerman on July 22, 2013, 12:10:27 PM
When using Brett as a primary yeast, fermentation still takes a very long time to complete.  The beer will change over time.  I strongly suggest leaving this beer in the primary for at least a couple of months.  And it will benefit from a secondary as well as the Brett will keep working for quite a while.  Ron Price may have some good input on this as well.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: anthony on July 22, 2013, 01:48:16 PM
When using Brett as a primary yeast, fermentation still takes a very long time to complete.  The beer will change over time.  I strongly suggest leaving this beer in the primary for at least a couple of months.  And it will benefit from a secondary as well as the Brett will keep working for quite a while.  Ron Price may have some good input on this as well.

It is my understanding that if this is the case, your pitching rate needs to be increased. This has been repeated over and over again by Chad Yakobson, Vinnie, Michael Tonsmeire (Mad Fermentationist), etc. The pitches from White Labs at least are lower than normal cell counts so if you toss them in without a starter you are way underpitching, hence the long fermentation time.

"At Crooked Stave we are doing lots of primary fermentation and I’m usually hitting 78% attenuation within 7 days on a 14 Plato or 1.056 gravity beer. Usually have 82% within a few days after that. It’s all about using the right Bretts for primary and pitching with the adequate amount of cells. Right in between an ale and lager pitching rate, so 1.25×10^6 cells per ml per degree plato for the first pitch seems to work well.. Second generations really rock and the pitch rate can be lowered. I saw a 1.090 gravity Brett porter ferment out in 10 days recently. Complexity is there but always continues to improve in the bottle and over time." --Chad
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 22, 2013, 01:50:03 PM
This morning It is fermenting very good.  I moved it out into the garage with an ambient
of 82 ish.  For the record, I used 2 quart iterations of growth on the spin plate for the
starter for a total half gallon thing.  I heard to pitch Lager quantities and I am wishing that
I would have been able to get even more spawn to pitch than I did. There was a pretty
good lag time.

I see Iris is dry hopped at Cantillon for a bit more hop presence than is normally found in
Lambic (which is mainly None). I have never had an Iris to drink tho I read on ratebeer
and it sounds good. I hope my selection of Belma brings nice qualities into the mix.

winging it >>>><<<<
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: redbeerman on July 22, 2013, 02:23:07 PM
When using Brett as a primary yeast, fermentation still takes a very long time to complete.  The beer will change over time.  I strongly suggest leaving this beer in the primary for at least a couple of months.  And it will benefit from a secondary as well as the Brett will keep working for quite a while.  Ron Price may have some good input on this as well.

It is my understanding that if this is the case, your pitching rate needs to be increased. This has been repeated over and over again by Chad Yakobson, Vinnie, Michael Tonsmeire (Mad Fermentationist), etc. The pitches from White Labs at least are lower than normal cell counts so if you toss them in without a starter you are way underpitching, hence the long fermentation time.

"At Crooked Stave we are doing lots of primary fermentation and I’m usually hitting 78% attenuation within 7 days on a 14 Plato or 1.056 gravity beer. Usually have 82% within a few days after that. It’s all about using the right Bretts for primary and pitching with the adequate amount of cells. Right in between an ale and lager pitching rate, so 1.25×10^6 cells per ml per degree plato for the first pitch seems to work well.. Second generations really rock and the pitch rate can be lowered. I saw a 1.090 gravity Brett porter ferment out in 10 days recently. Complexity is there but always continues to improve in the bottle and over time." --Chad

Your right about the primary attenuation, but it has been my experience that the character of the beer is pretty lame early on compared to after having a number of months aging.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on July 25, 2013, 03:23:12 PM
5 Days, I snuck a little taste out of the fermenter because activity has
slowed WAY down.

All I can say is WOW.  The sugar is gone it is Complex tasting on the palate
not at all unpleasant.  I could drink it like it is but will wait for the prescribed
months in primary to pass and see where this beer goes.

No detecting of the lactose to my unrefined palate.  The hops have offset
anything that resembles sweet.  I got interesting mild grapefruit notes.

This yeast isolate is a good worker.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: kramerog on July 25, 2013, 10:04:11 PM
I have a no-boil Berliner Weiss that I sour-worted before pitching Brett as the only yeast.  The fermentation has slowed considerably and the gravity is about 1.006.  A split of this had an F.G. of 1.003.  How do I calculate the amount of bottling sugar so I get 3-3.5 v/v of carbonation while avoiding bottle bombs?
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: erockrph on July 26, 2013, 04:01:02 AM
I have a no-boil Berliner Weiss that I sour-worted before pitching Brett as the only yeast.  The fermentation has slowed considerably and the gravity is about 1.006.  A split of this had an F.G. of 1.003.  How do I calculate the amount of bottling sugar so I get 3-3.5 v/v of carbonation while avoiding bottle bombs?

My votes are either:

A) Calculate as you normally would (i.e., assume you are at FG), and as soon as the carbonation hits the level you want, put them in the fridge and drink them soon.

or

B) Use champagne bottles, prime to about 3 volumes with the understanding that it may get significantly higher given enough time.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 26, 2013, 05:24:34 PM
I have a no-boil Berliner Weiss that I sour-worted before pitching Brett as the only yeast.  The fermentation has slowed considerably and the gravity is about 1.006.  A split of this had an F.G. of 1.003.  How do I calculate the amount of bottling sugar so I get 3-3.5 v/v of carbonation while avoiding bottle bombs?

I usually assume brett will work SG down to 1.002 in the bottle, so figure in the difference between your current gravity and 1.002 when calculating priming sugar weight. If you want to be conservative, just assume 1.000 as FG.

Since berliner weisse is normally consumed rather quickly (like any light wheat-based beer), I would only be concerned about additional carbonation if you're going to cellar a few bottles for 6 months or more. In that case, just fill a few heavy duty bottles.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: kramerog on July 26, 2013, 05:45:48 PM
I usually assume brett will work SG down to 1.002 in the bottle, so figure in the difference between your current gravity and 1.002 when calculating priming sugar weight. If you want to be conservative, just assume 1.000 as FG.

Since berliner weisse is normally consumed rather quickly (like any light wheat-based beer), I would only be concerned about additional carbonation if you're going to cellar a few bottles for 6 months or more. In that case, just fill a few heavy duty bottles.
Just so I'm clear, if I plan to keep the bottle for less than 6 months then calculate the amount of priming sugar in the usual way.  If more than 6 months, factor in the difference between the current gravity and an assumed gravity, say 1.002, in the priming calculations.  Did I get it right?

Do you have a recommendation for a priming calculator capable of factoring in the gravity?
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: erockrph on July 26, 2013, 06:18:27 PM
Do you have a recommendation for a priming calculator capable of factoring in the gravity?

A good rule of thumb is that each gravity point will net you 0.5 volumes of CO2.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on September 30, 2013, 06:26:38 PM
Update I snuck out a little taste of primary.  Golden Straw Color CLEAR as can be.
aroma Nondescript fruity...mangoesque...I still get a slight note of vomit or perhaps
aspergillus mold aroma.  When I go back in for another sniff, that has disappeared. 1st taste
is kind of souresque on the tongue.  Not a lot of body but not thin and watery either.
Almost indescribable fruity, bitter, alcohol comes through some, LONG finish, opinion, NOT DONE YET>>>

But this is going to be a drinkable beer.  I am trying to decide what to use to dry hop with
this bug was from cantillon and that is what they do to the Iris beer. Why not.  I have
a Lot of Belma and I just got some Amarillo.....Not sure which variety to dry hop with.
Maybe Both?

Anyone care to lend an opinion?
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on October 12, 2013, 09:28:55 PM
Quote
I am trying to decide what to use to dry hop with
this bug was from cantillon and that is what they do to the Iris beer. Why not.  I have
a Lot of Belma and I just got some Amarillo.....Not sure which variety to dry hop with.
Maybe Both?

Anyone??
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: erockrph on October 12, 2013, 09:59:39 PM
Quote
I am trying to decide what to use to dry hop with
this bug was from cantillon and that is what they do to the Iris beer. Why not.  I have
a Lot of Belma and I just got some Amarillo.....Not sure which variety to dry hop with.
Maybe Both?

Anyone??

Either would work, but if it were my beer I'd go Amarillo. Belma is pretty mild, and very similar to that nondescript "fruity" note you're getting here like melon/peach/berry. It wouldn't clash, but I don't know if it would bring anything worthwhile to the table. Amarillo's orangy citrus would work nice with the sour and add some depth.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on October 13, 2013, 02:20:02 AM
Your assessment agrees with mine erock...I am leaning that direction....
Thanx
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on October 14, 2013, 02:47:22 AM
Not so sour but more reminiscent of old almost stale orange peels.... :-\
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: reverseapachemaster on October 14, 2013, 02:14:12 PM
I've dry hopped brett beers with Belma and really liked the result. It isn't an overwhelming dry hop character but it creates a very interesting set of flavors. I'd say dry hopping brett beers is the single best way to use Belma.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on October 14, 2013, 02:48:17 PM
What would you imagine 2/3 belma and 1/3 amarillo mix would yeild??
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: reverseapachemaster on October 15, 2013, 03:06:34 AM
What would you imagine 2/3 belma and 1/3 amarillo mix would yeild??

Deliciousness.
Title: Re: 1st all Brett beer
Post by: 1vertical on November 09, 2013, 10:51:15 PM
I have managed to sneak a taste of this brew.  Still get the rancid orange peel note
not sure what to say of the stuff. UNKNOWN and UNFAMILIAR flavors and tastes.
Definately a flavor party on the palate.  I have sipped about 3-4 oz of this and
well here goes nuttin....fresh earthy aroma then amarillo comes after that.  Pours a
big white head and the golden liquid is somewhat hazy from the dry hopping. It was
clear prior to the addition of hops.  No belma comes thru that I can tell.  first touch
at the tongue is that peeling note then it kind of goes indescribable toward mangoish
pineappleish a touch of malt shows up. Mouthfeel is light and crisp not lacking. Long
finish is of bitter amarillo.  Its gonna take a few more sensory adventures with this
to get more of a description....just really unfamiliar flavors....not bad, but different.