Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: HoosierBrew on July 24, 2013, 10:59:00 pm

Title: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 24, 2013, 10:59:00 pm
Just tried my new saison, the one where I used 3724 fermented @ 90F per Wyeast's advice, to avoid the stall.  It worked well, getting to 1.004 FG in 11 days from 1.055. While I was happy with the much improved performance at the high fermentation temp, I was a little skeptical that I would like the flavor profile as much as the ones that took longer, but were done cooler with this strain. Let's face it, pretty much any other yeast on the planet (even Belgians) make a piss poor beer @ 90F.  No worries evidently. This is a great beer. Light phenols up front, followed by lemony, peppery spice - huge complexity. No fusels whatsoever, which would be a given normally with a hot fermentation. Far as I'm concerned, problem solved with this crazy yeast.  BTW, the Nelson I finished with are perfect with this strain.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2013, 11:52:16 pm
I've used wlp565 in the 90s and had great success. So I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 24, 2013, 11:58:03 pm
I've used wlp565 in the 90s and had great success. So I'm not surprised.
I had always read for years that 3724 and 565 were the same strain (actually I used 565 before and it never stalled on me), but I'd read recent postings that they are not - that they're from Dupont but different strains.  Any info there?
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: majorvices on July 25, 2013, 12:15:04 am
Not sure. Never used that particular wyeast strain. Supposedly DuPont uses a blend of strains and 565 is an isolated one, or so I seem to recall. They could be different isolation. I dunno.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 25, 2013, 12:22:52 am
Cool.  Thanks Keith.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: yso191 on July 25, 2013, 05:02:40 am
Interesting.  My next brew will be a Saison using 3724.  90*!?  What temp did you pitch at?  Did you let it free rise or ramp it up with a thermostat? 

In this 100* heat in Yakima, my kegerator/fermentation chamber in the garage is holding a steady 86* with it unplugged.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 25, 2013, 12:05:47 pm
Interesting.  My next brew will be a Saison using 3724.  90*!?  What temp did you pitch at?  Did you let it free rise or ramp it up with a thermostat? 

In this 100* heat in Yakima, my kegerator/fermentation chamber in the garage is holding a steady 86* with it unplugged.
Per the Wyeast recommendation, I pitched @ 90F, and maintained it there using a Rubbermaid tub filled with 90F water and an aquarium heater. Wrapped everything in a warm comforter to hold in the heat. Peak temp got to ~ 93F @ high krausen. Worked really well.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: AmandaK on July 25, 2013, 12:23:48 pm
Jon, I'm glad you did this! What was the pitch rate/aeration method?

Also, WLP565 and WY3724 are definitely not the same strain. For me (when following the 75* 2 days, 80* 2-3 days, 85-90* to finish schedule) the WLP565 is a bit more spicy/peppery than the WY3724 which is quite fruity under that same schedule. I need to do more experiments with this, but that's been my take-away in the 4 saisons I've done this summer - two with WY, two with WLP.

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: AmandaK on July 25, 2013, 12:33:13 pm
For anyone who stumbles on this later, this is the recommendation from Wyeast via email:

Quote from: AmandaK
Wyeast 3724. I love this strain but don't like the stalling.

I've heard rumor that you guys have tested pitching it around 80*F and raising it to 90*F. I would think this would give faster results than my usual one month ordeal. (I usually pitch around upper 60s to low 70s, then ramp to 80, then once it stalls it heads to 90 for three weeks.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, did you get the same flavor/aroma profile and what timeline did you see?

Quote from: Wyeast
Hi Amanda,

What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling.  Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 25, 2013, 12:51:55 pm
Jon, I'm glad you did this! What was the pitch rate/aeration method?

Also, WLP565 and WY3724 are definitely not the same strain. For me (when following the 75* 2 days, 80* 2-3 days, 85-90* to finish schedule) the WLP565 is a bit more spicy/peppery than the WY3724 which is quite fruity under that same schedule. I need to do more experiments with this, but that's been my take-away in the 4 saisons I've done this summer - two with WY, two with WLP.

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.
I used a 1/2 gallon starter of very fresh yeast (packaged 2 weeks prior), extra yeast nutrient based on the assumption that, if these yeasts might be similar to wine yeasts as theorized, then extra nutrient is good. I used a mix-stir until the foam was @ the bucket top. Since I chose to pitch @ the recommended 90, I didn't do a ramp up, obviously not wanting to go alot higher. My first post was that it hit 1.006 in 9 days, but that's when I checked it, as I worked alot of hours that week. So it could have gotten there sooner. 10 or 11 days to hit 1.004. One thing - @ that temp the airlock activity started and was done in 2 days,maybe less. So quickly I worried it might have stalled like before.  So evidently when the yeast gets these preferred conditions, it goes pretty fast.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: duboman on July 25, 2013, 01:06:58 pm
For anyone who stumbles on this later, this is the recommendation from Wyeast via email:

Quote from: AmandaK
Wyeast 3724. I love this strain but don't like the stalling.

I've heard rumor that you guys have tested pitching it around 80*F and raising it to 90*F. I would think this would give faster results than my usual one month ordeal. (I usually pitch around upper 60s to low 70s, then ramp to 80, then once it stalls it heads to 90 for three weeks.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, did you get the same flavor/aroma profile and what timeline did you see?

Quote from: Wyeast
Hi Amanda,

What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling.  Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.

It works! I followed this recommendation on the second batch I brewed and it worked perfectly where my first batch stalled. BTW, thanks for the suggestion on the Nelson hops, sounds like a great combination i'll use for my next batch!
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: majorvices on July 25, 2013, 01:50:15 pm
Jon, I'm glad you did this! What was the pitch rate/aeration method?

Also, WLP565 and WY3724 are definitely not the same strain. For me (when following the 75* 2 days, 80* 2-3 days, 85-90* to finish schedule) the WLP565 is a bit more spicy/peppery than the WY3724 which is quite fruity under that same schedule. I need to do more experiments with this, but that's been my take-away in the 4 saisons I've done this summer - two with WY, two with WLP.

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.

Think I'll do a 10 gallon batch and side by side experiment here soon.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 25, 2013, 02:36:12 pm
Per the Wyeast recommendation, I pitched @ 90F, and maintained it there using a Rubbermaid tub filled with 90F water and an aquarium heater. Wrapped everything in a warm comforter to hold in the heat. Peak temp got to ~ 93F @ high krausen. Worked really well.

What size heater are you using?  I've been thinking of doing this to finish my bigger Belgians at higher than the ambient 72/74 temp they're at now.  Since it's warm out, the fish doesn't need his heater but it's a tiny one for a 2.5 gallon tank.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 25, 2013, 02:53:32 pm
Per the Wyeast recommendation, I pitched @ 90F, and maintained it there using a Rubbermaid tub filled with 90F water and an aquarium heater. Wrapped everything in a warm comforter to hold in the heat. Peak temp got to ~ 93F @ high krausen. Worked really well.

What size heater are you using?  I've been thinking of doing this to finish my bigger Belgians at higher than the ambient 72/74 temp they're at now.  Since it's warm out, the fish doesn't need his heater but it's a tiny one for a 2.5 gallon tank.
It was one we had laying around from our old aquarium - 150W IIRC.  I experimented with it first ,using 90F water in a tub, to see what temp it would keep. It maintained just ~ 88 degrees uncovered. So since I needed 90F for the fermentation, I covered the tub and bucket with a down comforter to hold in the heat. It peaked right ~ 93. Worked great, especially with stuff I had sitting around anyway.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 25, 2013, 02:56:44 pm
Cool.  I need to give it a try.  Hard to find time in the summer, though.  Weekends get booked quickly.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: AmandaK on July 25, 2013, 03:18:08 pm
What size heater are you using?

This heater is magical: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/electric-fermentation-heater.html (http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/electric-fermentation-heater.html).

It's called the FermWrap. I have it wired to a two-stage Ranco inside a wine cooler. That setup works quite well for any beer from lagers to Belgians.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 25, 2013, 03:21:15 pm
I've thought about those, but am leaning towards the no-cost solution of trying to use things that are laying around.  Like the aquarium heater and a tub of water.

At some point, I'll need to get a decent heater and a temp controller for it and when that happens maybe I'll use 3724 again.  But not until then.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 25, 2013, 03:30:46 pm
What size heater are you using?

This heater is magical: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/electric-fermentation-heater.html (http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/electric-fermentation-heater.html).

It's called the FermWrap. I have it wired to a two-stage Ranco inside a wine cooler. That setup works quite well for any beer from lagers to Belgians.
My Fermwrap burned out and I never got around to replacing it, so I got a wild hair and went MacGyver. Worked out though.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 25, 2013, 05:21:37 pm
Did you make the starter at 90F or around normal starter temps?
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 25, 2013, 05:29:47 pm
Did you make the starter at 90F or around normal starter temps?
Should have mentioned that. I made the starter @ 90F and placed it in the heated water bath in the tub, to keep temps as consistent as possible. I had airlock bubbles in ~ 6 hours.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: yso191 on July 25, 2013, 07:39:21 pm
BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.

I love this idea!  I am going to be doing a Saison on the light end of the spectrum:
20 IBU
6 SRM
5 ABV

With the following spices:
0.50 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.50 oz Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.25 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 mins)

I have 1 oz. of Hallertauer slated for late additions.  Given all the above, how much Nelson Sauvin do you recommend for replacing the Hallertauer?
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: AmandaK on July 25, 2013, 08:02:44 pm
BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.

I love this idea!  I am going to be doing a Saison on the light end of the spectrum:
20 IBU
6 SRM
5 ABV

With the following spices:
0.50 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.50 oz Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.25 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 mins)

I have 1 oz. of Hallertauer slated for late additions.  Given all the above, how much Nelson Sauvin do you recommend for replacing the Hallertauer?

Since I've been asked for in via PM a couple times, here's my general Saison recipe:

90% Pilsner
10% Munich
aim for 1.048-1.050
20 IBU Willamette @ 60'
1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 20'
1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 0'
WLP565 or WY3724, depending on my mood/inventory

I've also replaced the Nelson Sauvin with Amarillo to good effect. I may try a full on 'clone' of Tank 7 next spring because of it.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: kramerog on July 25, 2013, 08:11:10 pm
I've thought about those, but am leaning towards the no-cost solution of trying to use things that are laying around.  Like the aquarium heater and a tub of water.

At some point, I'll need to get a decent heater and a temp controller for it and when that happens maybe I'll use 3724 again.  But not until then.

75 W is big enough for heating up a water bath containing 10 gals of beer 20 degrees above ambient temp IME with one data point, my first and only saison using DuPont yeast so far. 

A good aquarium heater provides pretty control of fermentation temp, generally within 1 deg F.  As you deviate further and further from ambient the water bath temp and the ferm temp can vary up to 2 deg F if the water bath is shallow relative to the fermenter.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: duboman on July 30, 2013, 09:44:06 pm
Jon, I'm glad you did this! What was the pitch rate/aeration method?

Also, WLP565 and WY3724 are definitely not the same strain. For me (when following the 75* 2 days, 80* 2-3 days, 85-90* to finish schedule) the WLP565 is a bit more spicy/peppery than the WY3724 which is quite fruity under that same schedule. I need to do more experiments with this, but that's been my take-away in the 4 saisons I've done this summer - two with WY, two with WLP.

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.

So I contacted both Wyeast and Whitelabs today to ask about the two strains and whether they could confirm that both are the same. Neither would confirm nor deny that they were outright and stated that they were either not privy to the other's origin or genetic testing has not been conducted but there was one interesting reply from John at Whitelabs:
Hi Gary,

    I don't know what strain the 3724 yeast is so I cannot say if it's the same, but chances are that even if they started out as the same strain, there is bound to be some mutation/drift between the two companies over the years so they may be slightly different now.  I have no information about the origin of the 3724 so I can't even say if they started out the same or not, however every fermentation is unique and can produce different flavors.  I'd say just stick to the one you like the best!

    Cheers!


So it seems to make sense that there is the possibility that even if the two strains were at one point identical there is the possibility that they are now possibly slightly different.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: schulste on August 05, 2013, 09:30:37 am
I am so glad that this topic came up! I have been babysitting a WY3724 saison fermentation since the end of April. It stalled when the temperatures dropped below 70 °F in the utility room, picked up again once we had a heat wave at the end of May, and a week ago it was sitting at 0.005 above FG. It tasted great and I can't wait to keg it. So next time I am definitely going to use the 90 °F water bath. Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: narvin on August 05, 2013, 02:17:07 pm
If you have a digital temperature controller, you can switch it to heating mode and use it with a heating pad or desk lamp with a small (25w or so) light bulb in your fermentation chamber.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: reverseapachemaster on August 05, 2013, 02:46:31 pm
I recently picked up something very similar to fermwrap but it's designed to heat reptile cages. Basically the same heating element but about half the cost of fermwrap. I flip my digital temp controller to heat and plug it in.

http://www.reptilebasics.com/12-heat-tape

I have a small one for one gallon jugs and a large one for my bucket. I've used both to take a saison from around 75 at ambient to 90.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on May 03, 2014, 04:43:33 am
Resurrecting a long dead thread...

If one were to ferment a batch with WY3724 at 90F, would that yeast be re-pitchable?  I've read how yeast that are stressed by high gravity or other factors are not the best candidates for re-pitching.  But if this strain is happy at 90F then maybe it's OK.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 03, 2014, 12:36:39 pm
Resurrecting a long dead thread...

If one were to ferment a batch with WY3724 at 90F, would that yeast be re-pitchable?  I've read how yeast that are stressed by high gravity or other factors are not the best candidates for re-pitching.  But if this strain is happy at 90F then maybe it's OK.

I never repitched when I did it. But I agree that ,since Wyeast says that it prefers 90F for fermentation, you should be able to repitch it when it was used at its optimum temp. 


EDIT - You could make a pretty good argument that it's better to repitch the 3724 used at the warm (proper) temp, rather than yeast pitched @ 67F that got stressed and stalled out (which happened to pretty much everybody that used it for a while).
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on May 03, 2014, 01:16:50 pm

BTW - I LOVE Nelson Sauvin in a saison. Match made in heaven.

I love this idea!  I am going to be doing a Saison on the light end of the spectrum:
20 IBU
6 SRM
5 ABV

With the following spices:
0.50 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.50 oz Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins)
0.25 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 mins)

I have 1 oz. of Hallertauer slated for late additions.  Given all the above, how much Nelson Sauvin do you recommend for replacing the Hallertauer?

Since I've been asked for in via PM a couple times, here's my general Saison recipe:

90% Pilsner
10% Munich
aim for 1.048-1.050
20 IBU Willamette @ 60'
1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 20'
1 oz Nelson Sauvin @ 0'
WLP565 or WY3724, depending on my mood/inventory

I've also replaced the Nelson Sauvin with Amarillo to good effect. I may try a full on 'clone' of Tank 7 next spring because of it.
Again, following up on an old thread, thanks for posting your recipe Amanda. My SO has grown to like saison very much, so I now have a great recipe to try out for her. I have a fern wrap and its about to get quite warm here, so I will be giving this a go soon. Thanks again for all the input. Great thread!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on May 03, 2014, 01:23:05 pm
Thanks. I want to try a couple of saisons next and could easily arrange the schedule for repitching.  I'm going to first try the "lighter version" above by AmandaK and yso191, which should be ready by Summer.  After that I want to try a brett saison (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/saison-brett-255734/) which will have to sit quite a bit longer.  This will be my first foray into something other than standard APA/IPA style, but fear is slowly giving way to confidence, and it will be fun.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: euge on May 03, 2014, 01:41:41 pm
I pitched wlp 570 into 12 gallons of wort once it had cooled to 96F. The fermenter was an Igloo ice-cube cooler and I just closed the lid and let her rip. Beer was just fine without any off flavors, fusels or aggressive phenolicky character. Good to know about the 3724 strain as I've experienced "the Stall" several times with it. I have no psychological problem with pitching yeast at 90F.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on June 30, 2014, 12:28:12 am
On May 10, I brewed a saison basically taking Amanda's base recipe and adding .5 oz of fresh cracked black pepper and 1 oz of fresh tangerine peel to the last 5 minutes of the boil.  I bottled it two weeks ago, and am enjoying the first bottle now.  My wife and I love it.

This has been an adventure and an education, though, on several respects.  My OG was 1.051, but the 3724 cranked away for 6 full weeks at 90F.  I almost ran out of nerve, and had to get ahold of myself to leave it at 90 the whole time.  I kept my hands out of it until the airlock went silent, and it bottomed out at 1.080.

One interesting thing (to me, anyway) is that neither of us taste the pepper at all.  We might taste the orange, but overall we pick up more of a bright, lemony taste than orange.  When this first started to ferment, I could smell the black pepper through the airlock.  It faded over time, though, and I get no sign of it now.  The Nelson Sauvignon white wine taste is the most prevalent, though very much in balance.  I would be interested in strategies to bring a bit of the black pepper into the finished beer.

Another interesting thing is that when I tasted it at bottling two weeks ago, I could taste the typical Belgian banana and bubble gum esters.  Today there is no bubble gum and just a whiff of banana.  I can't believe the difference two weeks made.

I also didn't know whether it would carbonate satisfactorily given that the yeast clearly love 90F.  I primed it for 3.5 volumes (not willing to risk higher in my plain brown bombers) and left it at about 70F for two weeks it worked just fine.

Could there be a better hobby?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7w6k49BhEC0/U7CszN-KSKI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/SHBujIx-s5I/w506-h675/photo+2.JPG)
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on June 30, 2014, 02:21:18 am

On May 10, I brewed a saison basically taking Amanda's base recipe and adding .5 oz of fresh cracked black pepper and 1 oz of fresh tangerine peel to the last 5 minutes of the boil.  I bottled it two weeks ago, and am enjoying the first bottle now.  My wife and I love it.

This has been an adventure and an education, though, on several respects.  My OG was 1.051, but the 3724 cranked away for 6 full weeks at 90F.  I almost ran out of nerve, and had to get ahold of myself to leave it at 90 the whole time.  I kept my hands out of it until the airlock went silent, and it bottomed out at 1.080.

One interesting thing (to me, anyway) is that neither of us taste the pepper at all.  We might taste the orange, but overall we pick up more of a bright, lemony taste than orange.  When this first started to ferment, I could smell the black pepper through the airlock.  It faded over time, though, and I get no sign of it now.  The Nelson Sauvignon white wine taste is the most prevalent, though very much in balance.  I would be interested in strategies to bring a bit of the black pepper into the finished beer.

Another interesting thing is that when I tasted it at bottling two weeks ago, I could taste the typical Belgian banana and bubble gum esters.  Today there is no bubble gum and just a whiff of banana.  I can't believe the difference two weeks made.

I also didn't know whether it would carbonate satisfactorily given that the yeast clearly love 90F.  I primed it for 3.5 volumes (not willing to risk higher in my plain brown bombers) and left it at about 70F for two weeks it worked just fine.

Could there be a better hobby?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7w6k49BhEC0/U7CszN-KSKI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/SHBujIx-s5I/w506-h675/photo+2.JPG)
Thanks dcb for this info. I also made this beer and it's been fermenting at 90 for one week. I was wondering about conditioning temps, now I know



Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: troybinso on June 30, 2014, 03:55:43 am



One interesting thing (to me, anyway) is that neither of us taste the pepper at all.  We might taste the orange, but overall we pick up more of a bright, lemony taste than orange.  When this first started to ferment, I could smell the black pepper through the airlock.  It faded over time, though, and I get no sign of it now.  The Nelson Sauvignon white wine taste is the most prevalent, though very much in balance.  I would be interested in strategies to bring a bit of the black pepper into the finished beer.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7w6k49BhEC0/U7CszN-KSKI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/SHBujIx-s5I/w506-h675/photo+2.JPG)

I recently made a Saison and added a tincture of black pepper, cardamom, and grains of paradise soaked in vodka. I added this to taste art kegging so I could control the amount. It came out great.

Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on June 30, 2014, 04:27:37 am
I recently made a Saison and added a tincture of black pepper, cardamom, and grains of paradise soaked in vodka. I added this to taste art kegging so I could control the amount. It came out great.

Could you post details of your tincture, speaking to someone who's never done it?  How much of each spice, soaked in how much vodka, and for how long?  And about how much of this did you end up adding to your beer?  I get the generalities of the process but don't understand where to start in terms of quantities.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: troybinso on June 30, 2014, 03:14:29 pm
I recently made a Saison and added a tincture of black pepper, cardamom, and grains of paradise soaked in vodka. I added this to taste art kegging so I could control the amount. It came out great.

Could you post details of your tincture, speaking to someone who's never done it?  How much of each spice, soaked in how much vodka, and for how long?  And about how much of this did you end up adding to your beer?  I get the generalities of the process but don't understand where to start in terms of quantities.

I cracked 1 gram of grains of paradise, 1 gram of cardamom, and 2 grams of black pepper and soaked them in about 4 ounces of vodka. I let them sit in there for a few days, but based on the aroma, I think a few hours would have been sufficient. I then dosed a few measured tasters of the cold, uncarbonated beer with different measured amounts of the tincture. I don't remember the details on that, but it was something like a couple of ml of tincture to a couple of ounces of beer. When I decided which one I liked best it turned out that I would need to add the entire 4 ounces of vodka to the batch (and maybe a little more if I had had it) to reach that level of flavor in the 5 gallon volume of beer, so I just put it all in and called it good. I strained it through some cheescloth covering a straining and it kept the little bits of spices out of the keg.

The flavor is noticeable but not overpowering. I did something similar with fresh orange peel and coriander. It is a nice way to split a batch of saison.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on June 30, 2014, 04:06:51 pm
Thanks-- this is plenty to get me going.  I'm thinking I'll make a bit if this and try siring the finished beer.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 07, 2014, 01:15:31 am
So my 3724 seems to have stalled despite pitching and keeping at 90. OG of 1.051, and 12 days in was only down to 1.026. I have bucket ferm wrapped with Johnson A419(?) set at 90. Any thoughts, should I have had it set a little lower to account for fermentation heating it up? What's my next step now? Rack to a secondary with 05/001/1056? I did read that first pitch if this is usually difficult, but can't see saving for re-pitch if I finish with another yeast unless I secondary.


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: Stevie on July 07, 2014, 04:16:32 am

So my 3724 seems to have stalled despite pitching and keeping at 90. OG of 1.051, and 12 days in was only down to 1.026. I have bucket ferm wrapped with Johnson A419(?) set at 90. Any thoughts, should I have had it set a little lower to account for fermentation heating it up? What's my next step now? Rack to a secondary with 05/001/1056? I did read that first pitch if this is usually difficult, but can't see saving for re-pitch if I finish with another yeast unless I secondary.


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk

Just let it ride. It will get there.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 07, 2014, 04:29:30 am
Thanks Steve, will do. And I will also postpone teaching anyone else until I have my system down pat or can at least pay attention


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 07, 2014, 11:47:28 am
So my 3724 seems to have stalled despite pitching and keeping at 90. OG of 1.051, and 12 days in was only down to 1.026. I have bucket ferm wrapped with Johnson A419(?) set at 90. Any thoughts, should I have had it set a little lower to account for fermentation heating it up? What's my next step now? Rack to a secondary with 05/001/1056? I did read that first pitch if this is usually difficult, but can't see saving for re-pitch if I finish with another yeast unless I secondary.


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk


Never had it stall at that temp - I've pitched and fermented at 90F 3 times, all first pitch. I agree to give it time, it'll get there. Or you could always pitch some 3711 to help it finish quicker, if you're in more of a hurry. I used to do that after a week or so , before I learned to pitch it warmer.

EDIT - Also, did you aerate thoroughly, use nutrient, and pitch enough healthy yeast ?  I just ask because it will normally ferment down pretty quickly at that temp.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 07, 2014, 12:36:03 pm
Pure O2, pitched enough according to beersmith, mr malty, and yeast calc, and yes to nutrient. I started with a blow off tube, never saw any activity in first week. After 1 week I switched to air lock. Saw plenty of action in airlock for 3-4 days then checked at 12 days. I will check again this weekend


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: morticaixavier on July 07, 2014, 03:19:08 pm
any chance that 1.026 was from an uncorrected refractometer reading?
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 07, 2014, 04:02:29 pm
No, it was from a hydro sample from the 90 degree fermenter that sat out cooling for over 30 minutes before testing.  I did not temp it, but I'm sure it was still at least 70, as the room it was in was at least that warm. The only other concern I had was that when I pitched, I pitched 80 degree yeast starter into 90 degree wort. Any issues with that, I would have thought it could handle that. Also, I thought I read elsewhere well after pitching that no blowoff tube should be used with this strain, and I did do that for a week at first. As stated earlier, I saw no visible signs of fermentation while blow off tube was in place, but did see airlock activity once that was in place.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on July 08, 2014, 01:00:33 am
One thing I did with mine was to swirl the bucket a bit each morning to rouse the yeast.  It made me feel good at the time but the beer is cloudy enough that I now doubt that having the yeast fall out of suspension was a real danger.   My activity slowed dramatically at about a week and a half but I stayed the course at it kept going.   This one batch is the total of my experience with this yeast, but for whatever it's worth that's how it went for me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: brewinhard on July 08, 2014, 05:27:08 pm
Can anyone provide any anecdotal evidence that pitching WL 565 into 90F wort and fermenting immediately at that temp will also speed up the primary fermentation time as with WY 3724 without any fusel alcohol notes or other off flavors?
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 15, 2014, 02:54:48 am
So my 3724 seems to have stalled despite pitching and keeping at 90. OG of 1.051, and 12 days in was only down to 1.026. I have bucket ferm wrapped with Johnson A419(?) set at 90. Any thoughts, should I have had it set a little lower to account for fermentation heating it up? What's my next step now? Rack to a secondary with 05/001/1056? I did read that first pitch if this is usually difficult, but can't see saving for re-pitch if I finish with another yeast unless I secondary.

Edit: 10 days later and the 3724 has been working like crazy. Took a reading tonight: 1.004@90 degrees, Beersmith corrects this to 1.008, only 1 point to go. Waiting it out was the key, I should have known!
Due to other responsibilities, I am going to give it till the weekend before I check it again, then crash for 3 days, bring it back up to room temp and hopefully bottle the weekend of the 25th-27. Not having made a saison before, and thus first time with this yeast, does that sound like a good plan? Or should I skip the crash, or any other changes?

Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on July 15, 2014, 01:07:53 pm
I didn't crash in my primary because I'm not set up for it.  But my beer is fairly hazy (not as much as a lot of heffes but not sparkling clear either) which I attribute to the low flocculation of the 3724.   I've left bottles still in the fridge for a few days and tried to pour carefully, but the beer doesn't get any clearer, even after warming up a bit.  Which is all to say that if you're cold crashing to aid in clarity, it won't hurt but I'll be surprised if you get the results you're hoping for.

Please follow up and let us know what happens!
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 15, 2014, 01:28:18 pm
I didn't crash in my primary because I'm not set up for it.  But my beer is fairly hazy (not as much as a lot of heffes but not sparkling clear either) which I attribute to the low flocculation of the 3724.   I've left bottles still in the fridge for a few days and tried to pour carefully, but the beer doesn't get any clearer, even after warming up a bit.  Which is all to say that if you're cold crashing to aid in clarity, it won't hurt but I'll be surprised if you get the results you're hoping for.

Please follow up and let us know what happens!

IMO some of my best saisons have a bit of haze. I never seek/want a turbid beer, but just like a hefe that falls clear loses some of its yeast character, I feel the same way about saison - just a touch of haze, not a lot.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 15, 2014, 01:42:12 pm
Thanks guys, might get it into bottles this weekend then, since I need the fermenter if I want to brew this weekend as well


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 17, 2014, 03:44:10 pm
Hey all, I'm looking for bottling suggestions on this brew. My OG was 1.051, finishing at 1.007/8. ran ferm at 90 degrees. My batch size into fermenter was almost 5.25 gallons(more than 5, less than 5.5.)I will be bottling in 22oz Stone Bombers(as are almost all my batches), so I have "sturdy" bottles. Questions arising are:
1. What carb level should I aim for on this brew?
2. As an example, for 2.9 volumes, Beersmith suggests 5.26oz while brewer's friend.com suggests 6.6oz corn sugar due to the high fermentation temp.
3. I guess what I really want to know, as this is my first saison, is where should I aim for, what is safe in these bottles, and if highest temp reached during ferm can make such a big difference, why doesn't beersmith account for temp in its calculations?
Any ideas would be most helpful, especially in preventing bottle bombs!
Earlier in this thread, dcb states that he carbed to 3.5 volumes in bombers, but beersmith really does not like that level for this brew, so I am feeling lost on where to go here
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: kramerog on July 17, 2014, 11:01:59 pm
I carbed my last saison to 3 volumes and some bottles cracked.  I don't know how strong the Stone bomber bottles are, but I suspect that they are stronger than the ones that blew. IIRC 3-3.5 vols are what are called for.  2.8 vols is the design pressure for a lot of bottles.  I think you can get by with 2.8.   

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 17, 2014, 11:29:50 pm
Thanks I will shoot for 2.8 then


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on July 18, 2014, 01:07:49 am
I chose 3.5 vol based on this thread:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15376.0

But looking back at my logs, I primed to 3 vol, not 3.5.  My mistake.  I primed with 6.4 oz corn sugar in 5.3 gal per BrewersFriend. 

This is the fizziest brew I've made, and I will admit to some sphincter puckering when choosing that carb level because I worried whether the bottles could take it.  So far, no explosions, and with the warmth here I've had a couple of bottles sitting at 80F for a brief period. 
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 18, 2014, 02:18:22 am
I may bump up to 3vol then, thanks dcb
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: brewinhard on July 18, 2014, 08:18:57 pm
Hey all, I'm looking for bottling suggestions on this brew. My OG was 1.051, finishing at 1.007/8. ran ferm at 90 degrees. My batch size into fermenter was almost 5.25 gallons(more than 5, less than 5.5.)I will be bottling in 22oz Stone Bombers(as are almost all my batches), so I have "sturdy" bottles. Questions arising are:
1. What carb level should I aim for on this brew?
2. As an example, for 2.9 volumes, Beersmith suggests 5.26oz while brewer's friend.com suggests 6.6oz corn sugar due to the high fermentation temp.
3. I guess what I really want to know, as this is my first saison, is where should I aim for, what is safe in these bottles, and if highest temp reached during ferm can make such a big difference, why doesn't beersmith account for temp in its calculations?
Any ideas would be most helpful, especially in preventing bottle bombs!
Earlier in this thread, dcb states that he carbed to 3.5 volumes in bombers, but beersmith really does not like that level for this brew, so I am feeling lost on where to go here

As far as I understand it (based on Brewing Classic Style priming sugar nomograph chart), the amount of priming sugar is strictly based on the temperature of the beer at the time of bottling.  It does not say anything with regards to fermentation temperatures. 

BTW, I have bottled upwards of 3.6 volumes in the s***ty home-brew shop bottles with no ill effects.  I do keep my bottles cold after packaging though. 
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: Kinetic on July 18, 2014, 08:55:12 pm
The NB calculator attempts to account for CO2 lost during fermentation due to temperature.  Beersmith does not.

My advice is to average the two sugar values from the different calculators at 2.6 volumes.  This should produce good bubbles without being a foam bomb.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 19, 2014, 04:16:21 am
Thanks to all, I am now planning on 5.9 oz corn sugar targeting a median value of brewer's friend and beersmith calls for 5 gallons at 2.8 vols at 80 degrees. The beer was fermented at 90(3724) for 3.5 weeks to get within 1 point of expected FG of 1.007 before I turned off the heat. It was still at 1.008 5 days after first reading there. Brewers friend highly suggests using ferm temp as priming calc point unless cold crashing which I'm not doing. I did kill the heat, 3 days before bottling so it will be about 70 degrees upon bottling


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: narcout on July 19, 2014, 04:50:13 pm
I decided to give this a try as well and pitched around 1:00 a.m. this morning in the upper 80's (which made for a really excellent 2:00 a.m. baby feeding). 

It's about 8.5 hours later now, and it's just cranking at 91 degrees.

I was surprised at how quickly the yeast dropped out when I chilled the starter.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 19, 2014, 09:21:28 pm
Bottled my saison today: 27 bombers of goodness. Ran 5.9oz corn sugar for 5 gallons shooting for 2.8 volumes. We shall see how it comes out in a few weeks> Thanks to everyone for all the input! Happy brewing and have a great day!
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: cempt1 on July 22, 2014, 10:09:51 pm
I brewed a batch of a belgian pale ale 8 days ago a pitched a starter of 3724 and oxygenated with pure O2 for about 40 sec (ran out of O2).  After about 8ish hours, it was chugging away and cont to do so for 6 days. Saturday I checked my gravity and it was down to 1.034 from 1.053.  It had been fermenting at 80-82 degrees which is the temp in my garage.  There has been absolutely no airlock activity since then.  I bought an aquarium heater yesterday but apparently it is a dud and needs to be returned.  My question is, how long can it sit doing nothing before I need to worry?  I will get a new heater tonight to try to get it to 90 degrees.  Should I sanitize a spoon and give it a gentle stir?  It seemed to have a lot of yeast in suspension when I checked it Saturday.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 23, 2014, 01:21:03 am
I'm not sure how long it can sit and not give up. I can tell you that my batch with 3724 showed no signs of ferm in a bucket with blow off tube, I got nervous but gave it 10 days before opening it. At that point it was only down to like 1.029 from 1.051.  I switched out for an airlock and had immediate and ongoing airlock activity for the next 8 days or so. I bottled it a month after pitching and it was down to 1.007/8ish. Only been in the bottle for 3 days so I'm still a bit off from rating it. Good luck


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: cempt1 on July 23, 2014, 09:41:13 am
I followed the advise of an experienced homebrewing friend and sloshed it around real good in the bucket. He felt that I could probably re-oxygenated since the gravity was so high.  I opted just to slosh and this morning it is bubbling away.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on July 23, 2014, 12:25:07 pm
I followed the advise of an experienced homebrewing friend and sloshed it around real good in the bucket. He felt that I could probably re-oxygenated since the gravity was so high.  I opted just to slosh and this morning it is bubbling away.

If the bucket was at all sealed I doubt there was much oxygen in there to get dissolved, but rousing the yeast like that may have helped.  Mine slowed way down a couple of weeks in, but once it took off again I didn't think it would ever stop.   Be patient and let it work-- you'll love the results.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: dcb on July 23, 2014, 12:27:07 pm
Bottled my saison today: 27 bombers of goodness. Ran 5.9oz corn sugar for 5 gallons shooting for 2.8 volumes. We shall see how it comes out in a few weeks> Thanks to everyone for all the input! Happy brewing and have a great day!

I wish you lived closer to Seattle.  I'd love to get together and sample each other's brew.  Please don't forget to get back to us when you open that first bottle.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on July 23, 2014, 12:43:13 pm
 Thanks, will di


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: brewinhard on July 23, 2014, 01:43:02 pm
I followed the advise of an experienced homebrewing friend and sloshed it around real good in the bucket. He felt that I could probably re-oxygenated since the gravity was so high.  I opted just to slosh and this morning it is bubbling away.

I definitely would not re-oxygenate this far into the fermentation.  As a rule of thumb, if proper oxygen is provided into the chilled wort when pitching the yeast, then that should be all that is needed (even when dealing with high gravity beers, most of the time...).  If you aerate a second time late into fermentation, you run the risk of oxidizing the beer which would make your batch not so enjoyable for drinking. 
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: narcout on August 04, 2014, 04:57:38 pm
I checked the gravity last night (day 16), and I'm at 1.025.  I hope this finishes up soon, I want to get another batch going in the chest freezer.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on August 04, 2014, 05:33:24 pm
After carbing at 70-74 for 10 days, I refrigerated and opened a bottle the next day. The carbonation was great, tiny little bubbles just bursting in my mouth. The beginning of a sip was quite refreshing, lightly fruity but the back end of a sip was quite off. Cant really describe it and I have no other experience with 3724, so not sure where to go with it. The whole batch was bottled in 22oz bombers, so as I worked my way through a poured bomber and after a couple sips, either I got used to that off taste, or it was never there. In the end, I am enjoying this brew and will make again next summer or late spring most likely.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on August 04, 2014, 11:26:03 pm
Here's a quick pic of my 3724 saison. Recipe is basically Amanda K's from earlier in this post and fermented at 90•. So light in color, at least pouring from the bottle, it's easily the lightest colored brew I have made so far
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on August 04, 2014, 11:27:13 pm
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/05/a9u4y8e9.jpg)
And the arrogant bottle it conditioned in!
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 04, 2014, 11:29:10 pm
Looks good Frank !  Enjoy.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on August 04, 2014, 11:39:12 pm
Thanx Jon, I plan on it!
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: narcout on August 23, 2014, 02:49:06 am
At day 34, it's finally down to 1.009 (from 1.057). 

I think I'll keg it on Sunday.

Edit: I checked the gravity again on Sunday, and it was down to 1.007.  It's kegged and carbonating.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: cempt1 on August 25, 2014, 05:49:38 pm
At day 34, it's finally down to 1.009 (from 1.057). 

I think I'll keg it on Sunday.

Edit: I checked the gravity again on Sunday, and it was down to 1.007.  It's kegged and carbonating.

I just kegged mine that I referenced above yesterday.  It took me 5 weeks to get it to 1.008.  Stalled twice on me.  I repitched some of the slurry into a pumpkin saison that I brewed yesterday.  We'll see if the second time around is any easier as some have indicated.  On the flip side the begian ale I kegged tasted great!  I dry hopped it with Colombus, Cascade and Mt. Hood.  I can't wait to try the finished product.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: cmooreseymour on August 27, 2014, 02:48:47 pm
I just brewed my first saison using WLP565, Brewing Classic Styles recipe.  OG = 1.060, 2 days @ 70 degrees, 5 days @ 76-78 degrees, 8 days @ 82-86 degrees. FG = 1.002.  Kegged it last night, taste tested throughout.  Definitely has the tart finish I wanted with the low FG and I can detect some citrus and spice flavors. 
Any recommendations?  Sounds like I could finish the fermentation sooner by starting near 90 degrees and staying there.  Great thread
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: Stevie on August 27, 2014, 02:54:15 pm

I just brewed my first saison using WLP565, Brewing Classic Styles recipe.  OG = 1.060, 2 days @ 70 degrees, 5 days @ 76-78 degrees, 8 days @ 82-86 degrees. FG = 1.002.  Kegged it last night, taste tested throughout.  Definitely has the tart finish I wanted with the low FG and I can detect some citrus and spice flavors. 
Any recommendations?  Sounds like I could finish the fermentation sooner by starting near 90 degrees and staying there.  Great thread

Two weeks sounds pretty good to me. If you like the results, do it again.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: cmooreseymour on September 10, 2014, 01:23:54 pm
Ok, I used the fermentation schedule that I previously mentioned: "WLP565, Brewing Classic Styles recipe.  OG = 1.060, 2 days @ 70 degrees, 5 days @ 76-78 degrees, 8 days @ 82-86 degrees. FG = 1.002."  After a week to mellow and further tasting, this beer ended up more like a wheat beer or belgian with some dunkelweizen-like notes. 

Does not really resemble a saison and I can't help but think I should have fermented a lower temperatures.  I was afraid of not attenuating and read all about saison yeast loving warm temps, but I don't know what else would contribute to a tried-and-true recipe resulting in these flavors.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 10, 2014, 01:29:30 pm
WY3724 is the strain especially prone to stalling at lower temps. 565 (though Dupont) is supposedly not the exact same strain and is less prone to the higher temp requirement.


EDIT  -  Dupont allegedly uses 2 strains in their saison from what I've read. 3724 is one, 565 the other.
Title: Re: Saison per Wyeast
Post by: 69franx on September 10, 2014, 01:56:30 pm
I am happy with the way mine came out, and I ran it at 90 the while time. Went from 1.051 to 1.006 in 4 weeks. It was my first saison brew, so I can't compare it to anything. I don't get any off, non saison like notes in mine. It was work to keep it at that temp though, so next batch may use a different strain


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk