Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: rainmaker on August 05, 2013, 03:53:02 AM

Title: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 05, 2013, 03:53:02 AM
Bottled my Saison today, and according to the numbers, I hit an attenuation level of 78% even though the strain is only said to go to 75%.  Miscalculation on my part, slightly higher attenuation than standard due to yeast factors?

OG was 1.057. Finished was 1.012
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: erockrph on August 05, 2013, 05:28:46 AM
First of all, there is a pretty wide range of attenuation for a given yeast strain depending on a whole lot of factors - fermentability of the wort, oxygenation, fermentation temp, etc. If a strain is listed with an attenuation of 75%, then I'd say anything 3-5% above or below that is within a normal range.

Secondly, WLP 565 can easily hit 95% attenuation if you handle it properly. A lot of times there can be a lag of a couple of weeks where it stalls out before it eventually finishes up. Are you 100% sure that it has finished out? I'd be scared as hell to bottle any Saison strain at 1.012 unless it was rock solid at that number for at least 2-3 weeks. Please be very cautious of bottle bombs. Check your bottles frequently, and if you start seeing any signs of overcarbonation, chill them and drink them ASAP.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 05, 2013, 11:00:05 AM
First of all, there is a pretty wide range of attenuation for a given yeast strain depending on a whole lot of factors - fermentability of the wort, oxygenation, fermentation temp, etc. If a strain is listed with an attenuation of 75%, then I'd say anything 3-5% above or below that is within a normal range.

Secondly, WLP 565 can easily hit 95% attenuation if you handle it properly. A lot of times there can be a lag of a couple of weeks where it stalls out before it eventually finishes up. Are you 100% sure that it has finished out? I'd be scared as hell to bottle any Saison strain at 1.012 unless it was rock solid at that number for at least 2-3 weeks. Please be very cautious of bottle bombs. Check your bottles frequently, and if you start seeing any signs of overcarbonation, chill them and drink them ASAP.

It held at 1.012 for 2 weeks without moving.  Just out of curiosity, why does WL state a 75% attenuation if it can roll to 95?
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: guido on August 05, 2013, 12:57:51 PM
Bottled my Saison today, and according to the numbers, I hit an attenuation level of 78% even though the strain is only said to go to 75%.  Miscalculation on my part, slightly higher attenuation than standard due to yeast factors?

OG was 1.057. Finished was 1.012

I ramp my fermentation on WLP565 up to 95F.  My Saison usually starts around 1.060 and finishes around 1.005 or 1.004.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 05, 2013, 03:43:20 PM
First of all, there is a pretty wide range of attenuation for a given yeast strain depending on a whole lot of factors - fermentability of the wort, oxygenation, fermentation temp, etc. If a strain is listed with an attenuation of 75%, then I'd say anything 3-5% above or below that is within a normal range.

Secondly, WLP 565 can easily hit 95% attenuation if you handle it properly. A lot of times there can be a lag of a couple of weeks where it stalls out before it eventually finishes up. Are you 100% sure that it has finished out? I'd be scared as hell to bottle any Saison strain at 1.012 unless it was rock solid at that number for at least 2-3 weeks. Please be very cautious of bottle bombs. Check your bottles frequently, and if you start seeing any signs of overcarbonation, chill them and drink them ASAP.

It held at 1.012 for 2 weeks without moving.  Just out of curiosity, why does WL state a 75% attenuation if it can roll to 95?

attenuation stats on yeast are based on a standardized wort. This provides the user with an ability to compare strains to each other. beyond that they are not useful. Compare a 75% AA yeast to a 65% AA yeast and you can be fairly sure that the first will attenuate more than the second. How much it actually attenuates though depends far more on the wort you pitch it into than the yeast you pitch.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 05, 2013, 03:46:24 PM
Well then. Wish I would have known this before bottling. I figured 2 weeks without any movement would be acceptable.  Then bottled a week later so I guess you could say 3 weeks without any movement. 

Should I worry that this hit of corn sugar will make the yeast attenuate even further than the desired carb level?
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 05, 2013, 03:49:28 PM
Well then. Wish I would have known this before bottling. I figured 2 weeks without any movement would be acceptable.  Then bottled a week later so I guess you could say 3 weeks without any movement. 

Should I worry that this hit of corn sugar will make the yeast attenuate even further than the desired carb level?

you should for sure keep a close eye on them. I suspect that they will become over-carbed. try putting one bottle somewhere warm (like the cupboard above the stove) for a day or so. Then chill and pop it open. I suspect you will see some gushing.

I suppose it's possible that it will be fine if you started with a very unfermentable wort. you didn't share recipe details but if there was enough crystal and/or a high enough mash temp you might be okay.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: Stevie on August 05, 2013, 03:51:20 PM
Well then. Wish I would have known this before bottling. I figured 2 weeks without any movement would be acceptable.  Then bottled a week later so I guess you could say 3 weeks without any movement. 

Should I worry that this hit of corn sugar will make the yeast attenuate even further than the desired carb level?

You may be fine. Check a bottle from time to time and once the beer is carbonated but the whole batch in the fridge.

How much priming sugar did you add and into what size bottles? Did you brew extract or all-grain? If all-grain, what was the mash temp?

When I brewed extract, I had trouble getting bellow 1.010.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 05, 2013, 03:53:15 PM
Well then. Wish I would have known this before bottling. I figured 2 weeks without any movement would be acceptable.  Then bottled a week later so I guess you could say 3 weeks without any movement. 

Should I worry that this hit of corn sugar will make the yeast attenuate even further than the desired carb level?

you should for sure keep a close eye on them. I suspect that they will become over-carbed. try putting one bottle somewhere warm (like the cupboard above the stove) for a day or so. Then chill and pop it open. I suspect you will see some gushing.

I suppose it's possible that it will be fine if you started with a very unfermentable wort. you didn't share recipe details but if there was enough crystal and/or a high enough mash temp you might be okay.

Took a different approach and tried an American-esque Saison. 10 lbs 2 row, we lbs flaked wheat.  Mashed in at 150 degrees, sparged with 180 degree water.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 05, 2013, 03:54:21 PM
Well then. Wish I would have known this before bottling. I figured 2 weeks without any movement would be acceptable.  Then bottled a week later so I guess you could say 3 weeks without any movement. 

Should I worry that this hit of corn sugar will make the yeast attenuate even further than the desired carb level?

You may be fine. Check a bottle from time to time and once the beer is carbonated but the whole batch in the fridge.

How much priming sugar did you add and into what size bottles? Did you brew extract or all-grain? If all-grain, what was the mash temp?

When I brewed extract, I had trouble getting bellow 1.010.

All grain, carbed 5 gallons with 5.2 ounces of priming sugar.

150 degree mash temp. 90 minute rest before sparge. 
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 05, 2013, 04:18:29 PM
Well then. Wish I would have known this before bottling. I figured 2 weeks without any movement would be acceptable.  Then bottled a week later so I guess you could say 3 weeks without any movement. 

Should I worry that this hit of corn sugar will make the yeast attenuate even further than the desired carb level?

you should for sure keep a close eye on them. I suspect that they will become over-carbed. try putting one bottle somewhere warm (like the cupboard above the stove) for a day or so. Then chill and pop it open. I suspect you will see some gushing.

I suppose it's possible that it will be fine if you started with a very unfermentable wort. you didn't share recipe details but if there was enough crystal and/or a high enough mash temp you might be okay.

Took a different approach and tried an American-esque Saison. 10 lbs 2 row, we lbs flaked wheat.  Mashed in at 150 degrees, sparged with 180 degree water.

I'de be willing to put a small amount of money on one of two things:
1) You are going to have severely over-carbed bottles in the next couple weeks
OR
2) your thermo is WAY off at mash temps and you actually mashed around 160 and it's done and you won't have over carbed bottles.

either way, monitor and when desired level of carb is achieved chill those bad boys down just as cold as you can. remember to warm them back up to 50ish before serving (my preference, yours may vary)
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: Stevie on August 05, 2013, 04:20:45 PM


All grain, carbed 5 gallons with 5.2 ounces of priming sugar.

150 degree mash temp. 90 minute rest before sparge.
[/quote]

You may have left a bunch of fermentables in there. The one and only time I used that yeast it stalled at 1.030 after 1 week (OG 1.060). Two weeks after moving it into a warmer part of the house it finished at 1.005, 90% attenuation. I too mashed at 150 for 90 but with Castle Pilsner malt.

Put the cases in thick trash bags in case they start to pop.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 05, 2013, 04:22:55 PM


All grain, carbed 5 gallons with 5.2 ounces of priming sugar.

150 degree mash temp. 90 minute rest before sparge.

You may have left a bunch of fermentables in there. The one and only time I used that yeast it stalled at 1.030 after 1 week (OG 1.060). Two weeks after moving it into a warmer part of the house it finished at 1.005, 90% attenuation. I too mashed at 150 for 90 but with Castle Pilsner malt.

Put the cases in thick trash bags in case they start to pop.
[/quote]

Bummer. I even fermed this thing out at about 90 degrees for a week. Once that week was up I check the sg, and did weekly there after. After not seeing any movement for 3 weeks figured this thing was ready. Well, guess I'll be drinking a lot of beer soon
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: dertiefster on August 07, 2013, 04:02:30 AM
Well, we're not quite on track with the thread title here, but that's not out of the ordinary from my board experience in other areas....  What I'd ask is: Did you boil the dickens out of this wort after over-sparging?  I did that to a batch and got a lot of kettle caramelization, leaving less fermentable sweetness.  I'm fairly confident this isn't your case, else you'd have mentioned that the wort was darker and more molasses-like than expected.  But it's better to ask than not.

I've not yet done a WLP565 batch, but I have a vial in the 'fridge.  I have used 566 and 585 with light worts and have obtained pretty stiff attenuations (> 85%).

Another thing: I'm not overly experienced, and I ask questions that I've learned to ask as a result of that experience.  I learned by being confused by it that there is a pretty big temperature correction you may need to do if your sg is measured fairly hot.  Did you do that correction for your near 1.055 OG?  If yo measured it quite hot, then you could have another 5-10 points of OG.  Excuse me if you learned that at your mother's knee, but I didn't.

Michael T.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 07, 2013, 11:08:05 AM
Well, we're not quite on track with the thread title here, but that's not out of the ordinary from my board experience in other areas....  What I'd ask is: Did you boil the dickens out of this wort after over-sparging?  I did that to a batch and got a lot of kettle caramelization, leaving less fermentable sweetness.  I'm fairly confident this isn't your case, else you'd have mentioned that the wort was darker and more molasses-like than expected.  But it's better to ask than not.

I've not yet done a WLP565 batch, but I have a vial in the 'fridge.  I have used 566 and 585 with light worts and have obtained pretty stiff attenuations (> 85%).

Another thing: I'm not overly experienced, and I ask questions that I've learned to ask as a result of that experience.  I learned by being confused by it that there is a pretty big temperature correction you may need to do if your sg is measured fairly hot.  Did you do that correction for your near 1.055 OG?  If yo measured it quite hot, then you could have another 5-10 points of OG.  Excuse me if you learned that at your mother's knee, but I didn't.

Michael T.

Boiled off a little under a gallon. Used a refractometer for measuring.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 07, 2013, 03:05:44 PM
Well, we're not quite on track with the thread title here, but that's not out of the ordinary from my board experience in other areas....  What I'd ask is: Did you boil the dickens out of this wort after over-sparging?  I did that to a batch and got a lot of kettle caramelization, leaving less fermentable sweetness.  I'm fairly confident this isn't your case, else you'd have mentioned that the wort was darker and more molasses-like than expected.  But it's better to ask than not.

I've not yet done a WLP565 batch, but I have a vial in the 'fridge.  I have used 566 and 585 with light worts and have obtained pretty stiff attenuations (> 85%).

Another thing: I'm not overly experienced, and I ask questions that I've learned to ask as a result of that experience.  I learned by being confused by it that there is a pretty big temperature correction you may need to do if your sg is measured fairly hot.  Did you do that correction for your near 1.055 OG?  If yo measured it quite hot, then you could have another 5-10 points of OG.  Excuse me if you learned that at your mother's knee, but I didn't.

Michael T.

Boiled off a little under a gallon. Used a refractometer for measuring.

did you take your fg reading with the refractometer as well? if so did you apply a correction for already fermented beer? in the presence of alcohol the refractometer will give an inaccurate reading. However there are tool on line to correct for the error and get the true gravity.

a 1.012 un corrected works out to closer to 1.000 corrected.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 07, 2013, 03:07:56 PM
Well, we're not quite on track with the thread title here, but that's not out of the ordinary from my board experience in other areas....  What I'd ask is: Did you boil the dickens out of this wort after over-sparging?  I did that to a batch and got a lot of kettle caramelization, leaving less fermentable sweetness.  I'm fairly confident this isn't your case, else you'd have mentioned that the wort was darker and more molasses-like than expected.  But it's better to ask than not.

I've not yet done a WLP565 batch, but I have a vial in the 'fridge.  I have used 566 and 585 with light worts and have obtained pretty stiff attenuations (> 85%).

Another thing: I'm not overly experienced, and I ask questions that I've learned to ask as a result of that experience.  I learned by being confused by it that there is a pretty big temperature correction you may need to do if your sg is measured fairly hot.  Did you do that correction for your near 1.055 OG?  If yo measured it quite hot, then you could have another 5-10 points of OG.  Excuse me if you learned that at your mother's knee, but I didn't.

Michael T.

Boiled off a little under a gallon. Used a refractometer for measuring.

did you take your fg reading with the refractometer as well? if so did you apply a correction for already fermented beer? in the presence of alcohol the refractometer will give an inaccurate reading. However there are tool on line to correct for the error and get the true gravity.

a 1.012 un corrected works out to closer to 1.000 corrected.

I used beersmith's conversion tool for fermenting beer.
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 07, 2013, 03:08:32 PM
Well, we're not quite on track with the thread title here, but that's not out of the ordinary from my board experience in other areas....  What I'd ask is: Did you boil the dickens out of this wort after over-sparging?  I did that to a batch and got a lot of kettle caramelization, leaving less fermentable sweetness.  I'm fairly confident this isn't your case, else you'd have mentioned that the wort was darker and more molasses-like than expected.  But it's better to ask than not.

I've not yet done a WLP565 batch, but I have a vial in the 'fridge.  I have used 566 and 585 with light worts and have obtained pretty stiff attenuations (> 85%).

Another thing: I'm not overly experienced, and I ask questions that I've learned to ask as a result of that experience.  I learned by being confused by it that there is a pretty big temperature correction you may need to do if your sg is measured fairly hot.  Did you do that correction for your near 1.055 OG?  If yo measured it quite hot, then you could have another 5-10 points of OG.  Excuse me if you learned that at your mother's knee, but I didn't.

Michael T.

Boiled off a little under a gallon. Used a refractometer for measuring.

did you take your fg reading with the refractometer as well? if so did you apply a correction for already fermented beer? in the presence of alcohol the refractometer will give an inaccurate reading. However there are tool on line to correct for the error and get the true gravity.

a 1.012 un corrected works out to closer to 1.000 corrected.

I used beersmith's conversion tool for fermenting beer.

ahh well, took a shot
Title: Re: WLP 565 higher than expected attenuation?
Post by: rainmaker on August 07, 2013, 03:12:12 PM
Well, we're not quite on track with the thread title here, but that's not out of the ordinary from my board experience in other areas....  What I'd ask is: Did you boil the dickens out of this wort after over-sparging?  I did that to a batch and got a lot of kettle caramelization, leaving less fermentable sweetness.  I'm fairly confident this isn't your case, else you'd have mentioned that the wort was darker and more molasses-like than expected.  But it's better to ask than not.

I've not yet done a WLP565 batch, but I have a vial in the 'fridge.  I have used 566 and 585 with light worts and have obtained pretty stiff attenuations (> 85%).

Another thing: I'm not overly experienced, and I ask questions that I've learned to ask as a result of that experience.  I learned by being confused by it that there is a pretty big temperature correction you may need to do if your sg is measured fairly hot.  Did you do that correction for your near 1.055 OG?  If yo measured it quite hot, then you could have another 5-10 points of OG.  Excuse me if you learned that at your mother's knee, but I didn't.

Michael T.

Boiled off a little under a gallon. Used a refractometer for measuring.

did you take your fg reading with the refractometer as well? if so did you apply a correction for already fermented beer? in the presence of alcohol the refractometer will give an inaccurate reading. However there are tool on line to correct for the error and get the true gravity.

a 1.012 un corrected works out to closer to 1.000 corrected.

I used beersmith's conversion tool for fermenting beer.

ahh well, took a shot

I got excited for a second thinking maybe I missed something, but no.

I cracked a bottle yesterday, 2 days after bottling and it already had some carbonation going on. Not sure if this is a precursor of what's to come, because I typically let my bottles sit a week before checking them.