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General Category => Kegging and Bottling => Topic started by: duboman on August 09, 2013, 10:46:06 AM

Title: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 09, 2013, 10:46:06 AM
So after years of only bottling I'm finally set up to keg!

I kegged my first beer Tuesday afternoon, set psi to 25 and shook it few times as the day went on.

Last night I bled the excess, set to 10psi and tapped a glass or two. Great head but no carbonation. Too soon? Not high enough initial psi? Impatient?

Yes the co2 tank is full, yes I can hear the gas filling the keg, yes I verified there are no leaks anywhere in the system.

Temp is at 42F if that helps.
Appreciate the input
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on August 09, 2013, 11:04:01 AM
Be patient.

The issue with cranking up the CO2 to carbonate then bleeding it off is the rapid pressure change pulls a lot of CO2 out of solution.

If you're in a hurry and need to crank up the pressure, make sure you bleed off excess slowly before pouring (over the course of a few minutes).

IMO setting the pressure based on the desired carb level and waiting a week or so provides more consistency. This is especially true if the carbonation and serving pressures are the same.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: rbgilbert2 on August 09, 2013, 11:09:41 AM
I carbonate the same way and have had no problems.  I shake my keg pretty good @ 25 psi for 2-3 minutes in a horizontal orientation, listening for bubbling from the gas in.  When that slows down, I let it rest, drop pressure to 12-13 and sample.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: repo on August 09, 2013, 11:59:59 AM
What was the beer temp when you were shaking it and how long did you shake it? Once the beer is at serving temperature, I can generally carb it in 3-5 minutes of shaking at 25 psi or 10-15 minutes at serving pressure 10 psi.

Let me tell you 3-5 minutes shaking a full 5 gallon keg is a long time. Also how full it was comes into play some too as the more head room the quicker you can get it done.  I will usually keg it at night, shake it the next morning when it's at serving temperature and drink it that evening after any sediment is settled.

If you already have the beer at serving temperature, you can absolutely have it carbed to desired volumes of co2 and ready to drink in less than 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 09, 2013, 12:21:38 PM
The beer was at the same 42 prior to keg, I definitely did not shake it 3-5 minutes, maybe 1-2 but a couple times. The keg was filled to the level of the rubber top price so little head space I guess.

It's been under 25 psi now since Tuesday afternoon. I was going to try another pour this evening after work.

Since I've been a very patient bottler for many years I'm not really worried, just trying to understand and get a handle on this kegging thing:)

Besides giving it more time if its not ready is there something else I should try tonight?
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: Three on August 09, 2013, 12:30:00 PM
Very AWESOME!  You will be very happy.  And your beer consumption will increase!!!!  And then you will have to brew more!!!!!  It's the perfect circle!

Not being in a hurry seems to be the best method (IMO).  I usually keep 30 psi on a new keg for two days and then lower to 12-14 lbs (at 40ish degrees) for about a week.  I have to admit, there is an ABUNDANT amount of checking it's progress as I go......

I'm sure you are aware of the carbonation charts out there, and leaks suck!  Check and tighten those connections!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: repo on August 09, 2013, 01:06:43 PM
I would try it first but if you really want to get into it. I assume it is your only keg at the moment. Turn the pressure back up to 20-25 ish, then turn the gas back down a bunch. Shake it and watch the needle drop slowly back down. This will indicate that the beer is absorbing the co2, if it happens quickly you are not that close, if it happens slowly you are getting close. Turn the gas back up and do it again, probably reducing how much above serving pressure you want to go to avoid over carbing. You can do this a few times and get pretty close to where you want to be.  Over carbing and sending beer up the co2 line are the problems.   Here is a link that has some useful tips and charts.  Being able to immediately carb is one of the many benefits, but nothing wrong with waiting.

http://morebeer.com/web_files/morebeer.com/files/kegging.pdf
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 09, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
I would try it first but if you really want to get into it. I assume it is your only keg at the moment. Turn the pressure back up to 20-25 ish, then turn the gas back down a bunch. Shake it and watch the needle drop slowly back down. This will indicate that the beer is absorbing the co2, if it happens quickly you are not that close, if it happens slowly you are getting close. Turn the gas back up and do it again, probably reducing how much above serving pressure you want to go to avoid over carbing. You can do this a few times and get pretty close to where you want to be.  Over carbing and sending beer up the co2 line are the problems.   Here is a link that has some useful tips and charts.  Being able to immediately carb is one of the many benefits, but nothing wrong with waiting.

http://morebeer.com/web_files/morebeer.com/files/kegging.pdf

Thanks, I currently have it at 25 so when I get home I'll do some shaking and see how it goes. It is my only keg that's full right now with a Belgian White I'm chomping to sample! Believe me I've got plenty of other beers to drink so I can certainly wait.

Thanks for the help, I at least know now I am on the right track and appreciate the file reference!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: majorvices on August 09, 2013, 02:51:51 PM
You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube. I rarely do anything but quick carb flat kegs. 30 psi, shake for 1 Min. Taste test. Repeat till carb level you need. You can find time it over the next week.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 09, 2013, 03:19:47 PM

You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube. I rarely do anything but quick carb flat kegs. 30 psi, shake for 1 Min. Taste test. Repeat till carb level you need. You can find time it over the next week.

I might try that next time:)

As it turns out I was just impatient, got home, shook the keg real well and the needle did not drop at all, bled off excess slowly, set to 10psi and received a just about perfect, well carbonated Belgian White pour to make my day!

Thanks for all the help everyone, advice and reassurances I'm heading in the right direction, time for another!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 09, 2013, 03:30:05 PM
You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube.

I gotta tell ya, I tried that a number of times and didn't see any difference.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 09, 2013, 04:07:23 PM

You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube.

I gotta tell ya, I tried that a number of times and didn't see any difference.

Thinking about it, question, how? My gas connect will not couple to the liquid post and vice versa or are you switching the valves?
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: majorvices on August 09, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube.

I gotta tell ya, I tried that a number of times and didn't see any difference.

Well, I think yer crazy! No offense! ;)
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: Stevie on August 09, 2013, 04:48:42 PM

You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube.

I gotta tell ya, I tried that a number of times and didn't see any difference.

Thinking about it, question, how? My gas connect will not couple to the liquid post and vice versa or are you switching the valves?

They are designed that way so they can't be mixed by accident. You would need to put a liquid connector on your gas line. Flare fittings are your friend.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: In The Sand on August 09, 2013, 05:26:55 PM
Buy a carb stone for $12 on morebeer and a 12" piece of tubing and stick it on the gas in post inside. Set to serving pressure and leave 2 days. It'll be ready then.

BTW I didn't read all of the other posts but I think this is a good solution, as it's what I do and it works GREAT!!! 

Also, to your original post, it's not done carbonating yet.  I too get impatient like that and had the same issue in the past. Cheers!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: bboy9000 on August 09, 2013, 07:06:05 PM
I set a warm keg to 40 psi with temp controller at 40F and leave it for 36 hours.  No shaking.  Then set it to serving pressure.  If the beer is already chilled, or if its a style that needs lees carbonation then I do 40psi of 24 hours.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: klickitat jim on August 10, 2013, 07:17:39 AM
Patience is almost always rewarded in homebrew.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 10, 2013, 07:19:10 AM
Patience I learned a long time ago;) 3 kids and Homebrewing will do that to you!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 10, 2013, 09:16:34 AM

You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube.

I gotta tell ya, I tried that a number of times and didn't see any difference.

Thinking about it, question, how? My gas connect will not couple to the liquid post and vice versa or are you switching the valves?

Yep.  I use the flare fittings, which screw on.  It's simple to swap them around.  Another advantage is that if someone shows up with a pinlock keg, I can just screw on the proper fitting.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 10, 2013, 09:17:23 AM
You can get faster carbonation if you bubble up through the dip tube.

I gotta tell ya, I tried that a number of times and didn't see any difference.

Well, I think yer crazy! No offense! ;)

And _I_ think you didn't do the experiment carefully!  No offense!  ;)
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: majorvices on August 10, 2013, 10:29:46 AM
Tell you what. I have a gizmo that reads co2 volumes. This will be an easy test. Let you know soon.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 10, 2013, 10:46:52 AM
Tell you what. I have a gizmo that reads co2 volumes. This will be an easy test. Let you know soon.

Please do!  I hooked up two kegs, one each way, and hit them with the same pressure for the same time.  But all I had to evaluate them was my own impressions.  This may be the ONE time I was wrong!  ;)
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: terrym on August 10, 2013, 12:52:26 PM


Please do!  I hooked up two kegs, one each way, and hit them with the same pressure for the same time.  But all I had to evaluate them was my own impressions.  This may be the ONE time I was wrong!  ;)
[/quote]

 Denny wrong?!?!  Nah, I don't believe it.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: majorvices on August 10, 2013, 03:35:24 PM
Tell you what. I have a gizmo that reads co2 volumes. This will be an easy test. Let you know soon.

Please do!  I hooked up two kegs, one each way, and hit them with the same pressure for the same time.  But all I had to evaluate them was my own impressions.  This may be the ONE time I was wrong!  ;)

Did you shake them or just give them time? Here's the thing, if you have top pressure on the beer and are bubbling Co2 up from the bottom it's going to stay in the liquid more readily as opposed to trying to force it down from the top. But if you do it over, say, a week, it may not make as much difference.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 11, 2013, 08:37:05 AM
Did you shake them or just give them time? Here's the thing, if you have top pressure on the beer and are bubbling Co2 up from the bottom it's going to stay in the liquid more readily as opposed to trying to force it down from the top. But if you do it over, say, a week, it may not make as much difference.

I think I shook them.  It's been so long since I did the in through the out thing that I don't recall, but that's always been my SOP.  These days I just let them sit at about 30 psi at room temp for a few days.  Shaking was too much work!  Believe me, I understand the theory.  It's just that reality didn't bear it out for me.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: majorvices on August 11, 2013, 08:53:08 AM
You "think" you shook them. Boy, doesn't get more scientific than that! :P :D
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 11, 2013, 09:08:13 AM
You "think" you shook them. Boy, doesn't get more scientific than that! :P :D

I'm pretty sure I did.  Whatever I did, it was the same for both other than the poppet I used to introduce CO2.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: jeffy on August 11, 2013, 10:31:21 AM
You "think" you shook them. Boy, doesn't get more scientific than that! :P :D

I'm pretty sure I did.  Whatever I did, it was the same for both other than the poppet I used to introduce CO2.
The thing is, if you pick up the keg and old it horizontally and shake it, it doesn't make any difference which port the gas is going into.  They're both below the surface of the liquid.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 11, 2013, 11:38:28 AM
The thing is, if you pick up the keg and old it horizontally and shake it, it doesn't make any difference which port the gas is going into.  They're both below the surface of the liquid.

When I did the shaking, I would lay the keg on the floor and roll it back and forth.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: jeffy on August 11, 2013, 12:12:10 PM
The thing is, if you pick up the keg and old it horizontally and shake it, it doesn't make any difference which port the gas is going into.  They're both below the surface of the liquid.

When I did the shaking, I would lay the keg on the floor and roll it back and forth.
So you didn't actually shake it, you rolled it.  You're in the music business, what if you had rattled it? 
Would the gas and liquid ports still be below the surface?
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: denny on August 11, 2013, 12:16:34 PM
The thing is, if you pick up the keg and old it horizontally and shake it, it doesn't make any difference which port the gas is going into.  They're both below the surface of the liquid.
When I did the shaking, I would lay the keg on the floor and roll it back and forth.
So you didn't actually shake it, you rolled it.  You're in the music business, what if you had rattled it? 
Would the gas and liquid ports still be below the surface?

Oooh, shake, rattle and roll...the Bill Haley method!

Yep, they were definitely submerged.  FWIW, I recall also trying it by shaking them standing up and still didn't see a difference.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 15, 2013, 06:31:56 AM
So I believe I finally figured all this out but have  additional questions:

This last batch I both bottled and kegged. Both the keg and the bottles have been conditioned and refrigerated for the same amount of time at the same temperature. My bottles are pouring crystal clear, commercial quality pours. My keg is tapping cloudy and it is not simply chill haze.

I am still getting a little too much foam and I have 5' of liquid line. My taps are approximately 3' to the center of the keg. For this issue I am assuming I should lengthen the lines, perhaps to 7-8'? The pour is kind of quick and the lines are 3/16 ID. They are refrigerated from keg to tower completely.

I noticed with my first keg that the dip tube goes basically all the way down almost into the little recess in the bottom of the keg. Is it possible that I am continuously sucking up trub each time I tap? Should I have cut the dip tube a little shorter to leave a little more space and avoid this suck up of sediment?

Appreciate the continued help!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 15, 2013, 07:30:18 AM
So I believe I finally figured all this out but have  additional questions:

This last batch I both bottled and kegged. Both the keg and the bottles have been conditioned and refrigerated for the same amount of time at the same temperature. My bottles are pouring crystal clear, commercial quality pours. My keg is tapping cloudy and it is not simply chill haze.

I am still getting a little too much foam and I have 5' of liquid line. My taps are approximately 3' to the center of the keg. For this issue I am assuming I should lengthen the lines, perhaps to 7-8'? The pour is kind of quick and the lines are 3/16 ID. They are refrigerated from keg to tower completely.

I noticed with my first keg that the dip tube goes basically all the way down almost into the little recess in the bottom of the keg. Is it possible that I am continuously sucking up trub each time I tap? Should I have cut the dip tube a little shorter to leave a little more space and avoid this suck up of sediment?

Appreciate the continued help!

more line or less push should help with the foamy pour. I suspect you are correct about the cloudiness. it should clear up eventually.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 15, 2013, 08:06:16 AM

So I believe I finally figured all this out but have  additional questions:

This last batch I both bottled and kegged. Both the keg and the bottles have been conditioned and refrigerated for the same amount of time at the same temperature. My bottles are pouring crystal clear, commercial quality pours. My keg is tapping cloudy and it is not simply chill haze.

I am still getting a little too much foam and I have 5' of liquid line. My taps are approximately 3' to the center of the keg. For this issue I am assuming I should lengthen the lines, perhaps to 7-8'? The pour is kind of quick and the lines are 3/16 ID. They are refrigerated from keg to tower completely.

I noticed with my first keg that the dip tube goes basically all the way down almost into the little recess in the bottom of the keg. Is it possible that I am continuously sucking up trub each time I tap? Should I have cut the dip tube a little shorter to leave a little more space and avoid this suck up of sediment?

Appreciate the continued help!

more line or less push should help with the foamy pour. I suspect you are correct about the cloudiness. it should clear up eventually.

I would have thought so to on the cloudiness but it has been almost 2 weeks at 39F like an extended cold crash and still cloudy, even after consecutive pours, that's why I asked about dip tube length. I don't think line length would really fix that issue as the beer in the lines is cloudy as well.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 15, 2013, 08:10:42 AM

So I believe I finally figured all this out but have  additional questions:

This last batch I both bottled and kegged. Both the keg and the bottles have been conditioned and refrigerated for the same amount of time at the same temperature. My bottles are pouring crystal clear, commercial quality pours. My keg is tapping cloudy and it is not simply chill haze.

I am still getting a little too much foam and I have 5' of liquid line. My taps are approximately 3' to the center of the keg. For this issue I am assuming I should lengthen the lines, perhaps to 7-8'? The pour is kind of quick and the lines are 3/16 ID. They are refrigerated from keg to tower completely.

I noticed with my first keg that the dip tube goes basically all the way down almost into the little recess in the bottom of the keg. Is it possible that I am continuously sucking up trub each time I tap? Should I have cut the dip tube a little shorter to leave a little more space and avoid this suck up of sediment?

Appreciate the continued help!

more line or less push should help with the foamy pour. I suspect you are correct about the cloudiness. it should clear up eventually.

I would have thought so to on the cloudiness but it has been almost 2 weeks at 39F like an extended cold crash and still cloudy, even after consecutive pours, that's why I asked about dip tube length. I don't think line length would really fix that issue as the beer in the lines is cloudy as well.

line length is for the foamy not the cloudy. you can shorten the dip tube but I find that eventually the sediment clears if its that. I suppose the keg could be infected so new sediment is being deposited all the time. or there is just a lot in which case shorten the tube and/or transfer to a clean keg.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 15, 2013, 08:24:24 AM


So I believe I finally figured all this out but have  additional questions:

This last batch I both bottled and kegged. Both the keg and the bottles have been conditioned and refrigerated for the same amount of time at the same temperature. My bottles are pouring crystal clear, commercial quality pours. My keg is tapping cloudy and it is not simply chill haze.

I am still getting a little too much foam and I have 5' of liquid line. My taps are approximately 3' to the center of the keg. For this issue I am assuming I should lengthen the lines, perhaps to 7-8'? The pour is kind of quick and the lines are 3/16 ID. They are refrigerated from keg to tower completely.

I noticed with my first keg that the dip tube goes basically all the way down almost into the little recess in the bottom of the keg. Is it possible that I am continuously sucking up trub each time I tap? Should I have cut the dip tube a little shorter to leave a little more space and avoid this suck up of sediment?

Appreciate the continued help!

more line or less push should help with the foamy pour. I suspect you are correct about the cloudiness. it should clear up eventually.

I would have thought so to on the cloudiness but it has been almost 2 weeks at 39F like an extended cold crash and still cloudy, even after consecutive pours, that's why I asked about dip tube length. I don't think line length would really fix that issue as the beer in the lines is cloudy as well.

line length is for the foamy not the cloudy. you can shorten the dip tube but I find that eventually the sediment clears if its that. I suppose the keg could be infected so new sediment is being deposited all the time. or there is just a lot in which case shorten the tube and/or transfer to a clean keg.

No infection, other than the cloudiness the beer tastes and smells awesome so once it's kicked I'll look at what's in there and go from there, thanks!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: bluesman on August 15, 2013, 09:48:25 AM
Here's a great manual that covers most of what you'll need for kegging, serving and maintaining your draught system.

http://www.kegworks.com/faqs/Draft-Beer-Quality-Manual.pdf
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 15, 2013, 09:51:50 AM

Here's a great manual that covers most of what you'll need for kegging, serving and maintaining your draught system.

http://www.kegworks.com/faqs/Draft-Beer-Quality-Manual.pdf

Thanks, I'll give that a read!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 15, 2013, 10:23:42 AM
That's a great resource but raised another question. I have read many people keep the Co2 tank in the kegerator but this guide states that should not be done with no reason listed as to why? So why is this not recommended? Mine is inside, does it really matter?
Title: Am I being impatient?
Post by: In The Sand on August 16, 2013, 03:43:57 AM
That's a great resource but raised another question. I have read many people keep the Co2 tank in the kegerator but this guide states that should not be done with no reason listed as to why? So why is this not recommended? Mine is inside, does it really matter?

Because you can fit more kegs in the kegerator if you don't store the co2 bottle in it ;). At least that's my reason!
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: duboman on August 16, 2013, 05:37:09 AM
That's a great resource but raised another question. I have read many people keep the Co2 tank in the kegerator but this guide states that should not be done with no reason listed as to why? So why is this not recommended? Mine is inside, does it really matter?

Because you can fit more kegs in the kegerator if you don't store the co2 bottle in it ;). At least that's my reason!

Yea, I get that but in my case it would only allow me a 3 gallon keg so not really a big deal, the article though made it seem like it was a bad idea to keep it inside as in detrimental but no reason why was provided so I am curious.
Title: Re: Am I being impatient?
Post by: scottNU on August 16, 2013, 07:27:58 AM
That's a great resource but raised another question. I have read many people keep the Co2 tank in the kegerator but this guide states that should not be done with no reason listed as to why? So why is this not recommended? Mine is inside, does it really matter?

Because you can fit more kegs in the kegerator if you don't store the co2 bottle in it ;). At least that's my reason!

Yea, I get that but in my case it would only allow me a 3 gallon keg so not really a big deal, the article though made it seem like it was a bad idea to keep it inside as in detrimental but no reason why was provided so I am curious.

I think there is a bit of science and a bit of experience at work.  The ideal gas law, PV=nRT, states that as temperature goes down (T), then the pressure (P) of the system (the CO2 tank) also must go down assuming volume (V) and amount of gas (n) are kept constant.  That's the first item. 

The second item is experience.  I have heard people express concern about tank and regulator seals not working as well at lower temperatures, problems with freezing due to rapid dispensing and keg space being used by the tank. 

I keep my tank in the refrigerator and have no complaints.  I think you can do whatever works best for you and your system/set-up.