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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: nicosan1 on October 15, 2013, 02:07:21 pm

Title: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on October 15, 2013, 02:07:21 pm
Hey all, just brewed an imperial stout that measured at 1.095 (refract) or 1.100 (hydrom). I used two smack packs of Wyeast 1028 to pitch and I used my aquarium oxygenator before pitching. I heard on Jamil's BN show that with big beers they recommend reoxygenating with the oxygen pump for a little bit on a day or two after brew day on big beers.

Do folks think is a good idea or do they have recommended techniques? I know my FG will be higher because of the dark malts I used but just want to make sure that my yeast are happy. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: denny on October 15, 2013, 02:13:40 pm
The ROT I'm familiar with is to not oxygenate after about 14 hours into fermentation.  Maybe someone here will have some direct experience.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on October 15, 2013, 02:22:30 pm
Thanks Denny, yes any suggestions would be appreciated. Also, in terms of an aging profile since this is a big beer, I was wondering, does 14 days in primary, two months in the secondary sound good for a beer in the 1.095-1.100 OG range?  This is new territory for me, I want to give time for yeast to do its work well in primary, secondary and bottle
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: kramerog on October 15, 2013, 02:45:08 pm
I think aerating a second time would be beneficial, not sure about using pure oxygen.  I open ferment my big beers for a few days.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on October 15, 2013, 02:46:56 pm
Thanks Denny, yes any suggestions would be appreciated. Also, in terms of an aging profile since this is a big beer, I was wondering, does 14 days in primary, two months in the secondary sound good for a beer in the 1.095-1.100 OG range?  This is new territory for me, I want to give time for yeast to do its work well in primary, secondary and bottle

the beer not the calendar. 14 daysin primary might be just fine but you will not know till it's done. I would plan on more like 28 days in primary (at least, 56 wouldn't be bad) then either straight to bottles or into secondary for another couple weeks.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: AmandaK on October 15, 2013, 03:01:21 pm
I would always go by hydrometer reading for transferring, not by the days on the calendar. The last thing you want to do it transfer all of that beer off of it's healthy yeast cake before it's done fermenting. Just let it go in the primary and transfer to the secondary a week or so after you hit a terminal and consistent final gravity.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: smkranz on October 15, 2013, 07:25:42 pm
I've had good results on big beers with pure oxygen at pitching, then again at about 15 hours.  Pretty sure this discussion is covered in Yeast (White & Zainasheff).
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 16, 2013, 12:54:17 am
I would focus more on how much the gravity has dropped than how many hours it has been since pitching.  If it hasn't dropped 5 or 10 points in that strong of a beer, I would feel very comfortable hitting it with more O2.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: erockrph on October 16, 2013, 08:10:08 am
I've only done it within the first day, but I think I'd be pretty comfortable even a couple of days out. I do it with my staggered additions with meads that size for 5 or 6 days (aerating, not pure O2, but I'm not sold that there's a huge difference), so why would beer be that much different?
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 16, 2013, 10:22:07 am
It shouldn't be much different, I agree.  The other thing you can do that might be more important than adding more O2 is to knock the CO2 out of solution.  That will help your yeast too.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: bluesman on October 16, 2013, 10:34:28 am
Hey all, just brewed an imperial stout that measured at 1.095 (refract) or 1.100 (hydrom). I used two smack packs of Wyeast 1028 to pitch and I used my aquarium oxygenator before pitching. I heard on Jamil's BN show that with big beers they recommend reoxygenating with the oxygen pump for a little bit on a day or two after brew day on big beers.

Do folks think is a good idea or do they have recommended techniques? I know my FG will be higher because of the dark malts I used but just want to make sure that my yeast are happy. 

Thanks

This can benefit the yeast during their lag phase when they are still absorbing nutrients and O2, but avoid it when you start to see a krausen forming on the top of the beer.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on October 16, 2013, 11:07:45 am
It shouldn't be much different, I agree.  The other thing you can do that might be more important than adding more O2 is to knock the CO2 out of solution.  That will help your yeast too.

How do you knock CO2 out of solution?  I am using a fermenter bucket for primary.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on October 16, 2013, 01:27:25 pm
It shouldn't be much different, I agree.  The other thing you can do that might be more important than adding more O2 is to knock the CO2 out of solution.  That will help your yeast too.

How do you knock CO2 out of solution?  I am using a fermenter bucket for primary.

with a sanitized whisk? or a mix stir, a big ss spoon.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 17, 2013, 12:45:20 am
It shouldn't be much different, I agree.  The other thing you can do that might be more important than adding more O2 is to knock the CO2 out of solution.  That will help your yeast too.

How do you knock CO2 out of solution?  I am using a fermenter bucket for primary.

with a sanitized whisk? or a mix stir, a big ss spoon.
Yes, something along those lines.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: jjflash on October 19, 2013, 01:24:29 pm
My current technique for big beers is to add oxygen as it goes into the primary fermenter, then re-dose that evening just before I go to bed, about 6 hours later.  Next morning active fermentation is evident.  Has made significant contribution to lowering my final gravity and reduced my occasional stuck fermentation issues with those finicky yeast strains. Have also tried adding oxygen the next morning before active fermentation started with the same results.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on November 05, 2013, 03:38:56 pm
So its been three weeks in primary on this beer, its down to about 1.042, according to my last reading. I expect since my recipe included Roasted Barley, Midnight Wheat and Flaked Wheat Ill have a higher FG. BeerSmith tells me that with the two packs of Wyeast 1028 I should have a final gravity of 1023 after a starting at 1.101.  Should I keep at it in primary? Also is there a point to perhaps pitching one more pouch of yeast and reoxygenating with my aquarium pump and stone?  Thanks
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: kramerog on November 05, 2013, 03:43:20 pm
Gravity of 1.042.  Did you measure that with a hydrometer or do the appropriate corrections for alcohol for a refractometer?
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 05, 2013, 03:50:23 pm
I don't think that any of those malts you mention inherently increase FG. If they converted as expected they will ferment. They are not like crystal/cara malt that is made up in part of un-reducible, un-fermentable sugars
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on November 05, 2013, 03:52:36 pm
I measured with a hydrometer and came up with that. I tried with refractometer and got about 1.050
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on November 05, 2013, 03:53:30 pm
I had about 12 oz of C120
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 05, 2013, 03:55:28 pm
There isn't too much to be done about it at this point except wait. Check the gravity in a couple days and see if it's still dropping slowly. if it is, let it ride. If it seems stuck you can try warming it up to the mid 70's and rousing the yeast. Adding more yeast now likely will not help much anyway but you can try it if you want.

If you do, make it a big pitch, like brew up a quick 1.032 session bitter and pitch the whole cake in this bad boy.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: cornershot on November 05, 2013, 04:12:09 pm
Thanks Denny, yes any suggestions would be appreciated. Also, in terms of an aging profile since this is a big beer, I was wondering, does 14 days in primary, two months in the secondary sound good for a beer in the 1.095-1.100 OG range?  This is new territory for me, I want to give time for yeast to do its work well in primary, secondary and bottle
In my experience imperial stouts need a lot of time to age. Maybe it's just me but mine taste terrible when young and then go through a magical transformation around 6-8 months. A year or more is even better.

It shouldn't be much different, I agree.  The other thing you can do that might be more important than adding more O2 is to knock the CO2 out of solution.  That will help your yeast too.
I thought dissolved co2 suppresses ester production? So wouldn't degassing during active fermentation increase esters?
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 05, 2013, 04:20:26 pm
[...]

It shouldn't be much different, I agree.  The other thing you can do that might be more important than adding more O2 is to knock the CO2 out of solution.  That will help your yeast too.
I thought dissolved co2 suppresses ester production? So wouldn't degassing during active fermentation increase esters?

I had not heard that dissolved co2 suppresses ester production. I do know that it lowers pH and can do so to the point that it interferes with the yeasts performance.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: cornershot on November 05, 2013, 04:46:35 pm
[...]

It shouldn't be much different, I agree.  The other thing you can do that might be more important than adding more O2 is to knock the CO2 out of solution.  That will help your yeast too.
I thought dissolved co2 suppresses ester production? So wouldn't degassing during active fermentation increase esters?

I had not heard that dissolved co2 suppresses ester production. I do know that it lowers pH and can do so to the point that it interferes with the yeasts performance.
Unfortunately I can't remember my source for this tidbit of info. Not my own research. It's been filed away in my brain for awhile and I've since factored it into my brewing. Now I'm second-guessing it. Anyone know for sure?
Edit: I didn't have much time to look but a chart in the Yeast book (p.281)dictates that co2 buildup in the fermenter will result in fewer esters. This seems to support my statement in general but I don't know how applicable it is to degassing.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 05, 2013, 05:00:14 pm
Thanks Denny, yes any suggestions would be appreciated. Also, in terms of an aging profile since this is a big beer, I was wondering, does 14 days in primary, two months in the secondary sound good for a beer in the 1.095-1.100 OG range?  This is new territory for me, I want to give time for yeast to do its work well in primary, secondary and bottle
In my experience imperial stouts need a lot of time to age. Maybe it's just me but mine taste terrible when young and then go through a magical transformation around 6-8 months. A year or more is even better.

Big +1.  My last RIS (OG 1.102) was disappointing at 4 months  - ill-defined , muddy flavors and boozy.  By the 6th or 7th month it was fantastic. And got better after obviously.  Great big beers need big time for sure.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: erockrph on November 05, 2013, 09:17:54 pm
Frankly, a beer this big may not be done at 3 weeks. It's been long enough at this point where I'd start raising the temp slowly to help get every point of attenuation that you can. Better to start now than to wait until the yeast has already given up the ghost. You'll have more luck waking up a sluggish but active yeast than one that is largely dormant already.

Bump it 2-3 degrees, wait a few days, and repeat until you hit the low-mid 70's. I wouldn't rack it until you're absolutely sure it's done in primary. I let my big beers sit in primary for at least 5-6 weeks before I rack/bottle. No harm in doing so that I've ever seen.

And in all honesty, even if this beer is truly finished this high, just be patient with it. For a beer this size, it could still be a real nice sipper after a year or so even if it finishes on the sweet side.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 06, 2013, 12:22:55 am
I might have missed it if someone already said so, but do not add more O2 at this point.  You can add more yeast but it is probably a waste of time.  Warm it up and be patient.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on November 06, 2013, 12:07:20 pm
What's it TASTE like?
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on November 24, 2013, 10:34:20 am
Its a decent stout, you can taste the roasted barley, a bit cloying sweet, body is a bit light. You can't taste a bit the alcohol not fusile alcohol but what you get from a big beer, but rather smooth, if a bit sweeter than I wanted it to be. Seems like two packs of London Ale yeast wasn't quite enough. Should I just transfer to secondary its at about 1.037 hasn't really dropped since I last reported. Not sure if there is anyway to drop the FG.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on November 24, 2013, 12:56:10 pm
Also, if my fermentation is done and has not gone further, after transferring and conditioning in secondary, do I need to add any yeast before bottling given the size of this beer? Want to make sure that there is enough to work with to bottle condition.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: erockrph on November 24, 2013, 02:26:04 pm
Also, if my fermentation is done and has not gone further, after transferring and conditioning in secondary, do I need to add any yeast before bottling given the size of this beer? Want to make sure that there is enough to work with to bottle condition.

It wouldn't hurt to add a little yeast at bottling as insurance. There's no telling what condition your yeast will be in. It could be fine, it could be sluggish. A quarter pack of US-05 should be more than enough.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: kramerog on November 24, 2013, 06:01:09 pm
For insurance purposes, I would use a wine yeast because its cheap ($0.50 for 5 g), tolerates high levels of alcohol, and won't ferment out the remaining complex sugars.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on November 25, 2013, 06:47:00 pm
How about Distiller's Yeast?
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 26, 2013, 08:41:20 am
How about Distiller's Yeast?

that would likely be more attenuative of complex sugars I would think, could be wrong. The benefit of using wine yeast is that is selected for easting simple fructose/glucose while brewers yeast (and I suspect distillers yeast) strains are more selected for the complex sugars found in malt based wort/beer.

So if your beer is at all underattenuated, by adding wine yeast you are less likely to have further fermentation beyond the priming sugar (simple sugar). that's the idea.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: kramerog on November 26, 2013, 08:53:19 am
I'm guessing the distiller's yeast is for secondary fermentation to drive the F.G. down.  Agreed that it would not be a good choice as a bottling yeast unless you had already fermented with distiller's yeast.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 27, 2013, 01:13:36 am
A distiller I spoke with recently recommended not using distillers yeast for anything but vodka.  He said they use ale yeast for their whiskey because the off flavors from distillers yeast come through even after distilling.  Based on that, I would not use it for carbonation.
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 27, 2013, 09:10:11 am
I tried the beers white labs was sampling out at NHC that they brewed with their line of distillers yeast, whisky specific yeasts according to the marketing, and none of them seemed in anyway over attenuated. I suspect distillers yeast, while they may have a higher alcohol tolerance don't actually attenuate any better (within a range of variation).
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: denny on November 27, 2013, 09:54:37 am
A distiller I spoke with recently recommended not using distillers yeast for anything but vodka.  He said they use ale yeast for their whiskey because the off flavors from distillers yeast come through even after distilling.  Based on that, I would not use it for carbonation.

In addition to the fact that it just isn't necessary!
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: nicosan1 on November 27, 2013, 02:44:23 pm
at this point I am just going to transfer to the secondary. Even though I used London Ale yeast packets for fermentation, should I add any yeast in secondary, like say one more pack of Wyeast London or a dry pack of Safale US 5 to ensure carbonation when I bottle condition? 
Title: Re: Oxygenation in first few days?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 27, 2013, 02:55:52 pm
at this point I am just going to transfer to the secondary. Even though I used London Ale yeast packets for fermentation, should I add any yeast in secondary, like say one more pack of Wyeast London or a dry pack of Safale US 5 to ensure carbonation when I bottle condition?

yeah, it is cheap insurance. I would stick with some of the London ale for reasons of relative attenuation discussed above. You could save yourself a few bucks and pull a little slurry from the bottom of the primary and use that as your extra yeast. Or just be less careful about racking clean beer only and get a little yeast carryover. Or use KramerOg's suggestion of cheap dry wine yeast.

I also question the decision to move to secondary vs. just bottling now. I have tried it both ways and I'm not convinced there is a huge flavor difference between bulk ageing and bottle ageing.