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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: morticaixavier on November 12, 2013, 02:06:27 PM

Title: simcoe
Post by: morticaixavier on November 12, 2013, 02:06:27 PM
Tell me about this hop. I am a (mostly) organic brewer and this is the first year I have seen organic simcoe available so I snapped 6 oz up.

I've got two brewdays coming up one is my holiday beer for this years gifts the other is my annual barleywine to celebrate my sons birth (this will be the third year).

I also grabbed some magnum and cascade and have some liberty, sterling, and one other that slips my mind at the moment although I know it's an American variant of a noble hop.

I know this hop has a reputation for being catty and I don't mind a little dankness I don't want an overwhelming preponderance of it. Are there tricks and tips for best utilizing this hop in order to minimize that contribution?

any other thoughts that you would like to share?
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: dannyjed on November 12, 2013, 02:19:03 PM
I think it is clean as a bittering addition. I also love it for flavor and aroma. Many people find it catty, but I just don't get that. I think I get more pine and citrus and it works well with Amarillo. It seems to be one of those hops that people either love or hate. I think it would be great with some of those other hops in a Barleywine.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: brewmichigan on November 12, 2013, 02:30:27 PM
If you use this hop for just bittering, you will have your brewers card taken away. This hop was born to be used in the aroma and flavor additions. It has a wonderful piney, resinous flavor that is synonymous with the West Coast DIPAs. I love to pair this hop with Amarillo. Probably my most favorite hop combo ever.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: Pinski on November 12, 2013, 02:51:19 PM
If you use this hop for just bittering, you will have your brewers card taken away. This hop was born to be used in the aroma and flavor additions. It has a wonderful piney, resinous flavor that is synonymous with the West Coast DIPAs. I love to pair this hop with Amarillo. Probably my most favorite hop combo ever.

+1, I think it also works well with Centennial and moderate applications of Citra.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 12, 2013, 03:03:18 PM
Agreed, Amarillo and Simcoe is a great combo - hard to beat.  But it blends really well with most any American hop. One of my favorite blends is Amarillo/Centennial/Simcoe/Columbus, but I've used it as well with Cascade, Motueka, Galaxy, Chinook, and Ahtanum, to name a few.  Great hop.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 12, 2013, 03:05:56 PM
You have to use it and see for yourself. I like it, my wife does not.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: wissota on November 12, 2013, 03:25:21 PM
Quote
You have to use it and see for yourself. I like it, my wife does not.
  +1

I think it is about personal smell/flavor.  And I really do believe the ability to detect cattiness and dankness is genetic to some degree.  For me, simcoe is all cat-pee and I will avoid using it. In fact, I know of award-winning commercial beers that generously use Simcoe and I nearly gag when smelling/tasting, while the person next to me is in hop euphoria. I am not arguing with those that love the aroma and flavor.  I'm sure that's what they experience.  So, long story short, use your own judgement.  And there are a lot of commercial beers to help with Simcoe research ;)
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: klickitat jim on November 12, 2013, 04:44:43 PM
Simcoe is bad. Send to me.

Its the backbone of my IPA, pairs well with any C. With mosaic I get fresh mango/grapefruit.
Heavy Simcoe can be dank young but develops a nice citrus over time
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: Stevie on November 12, 2013, 06:38:28 PM
I have only tasted cat pee in mckeller's all Simcoe. Before that I couldn't figure out what people were talking about. I get more cat pee for CTZ.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: Herminator on November 12, 2013, 06:39:39 PM
Quote
You have to use it and see for yourself. I like it, my wife does not.
  +1

I think it is about personal smell/flavor.  And I really do believe the ability to detect cattiness and dankness is genetic to some degree.  For me, simcoe is all cat-pee and I will avoid using it. In fact, I know of award-winning commercial beers that generously use Simcoe and I nearly gag when smelling/tasting, while the person next to me is in hop euphoria. I am not arguing with those that love the aroma and flavor.  I'm sure that's what they experience.  So, long story short, use your own judgement.  And there are a lot of commercial beers to help with Simcoe research ;)

I agree with the cattiness comments.  It smells like a dirty liter box to me…but it is popular nonetheless.  I think if you are careful with it and pair it well with some other hops, specifically amarillo and citra as other have said, it can be drinkable.  I think it a personal preference.  Try it out and see what you think. 

Cheers!
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: tschmidlin on November 12, 2013, 07:24:07 PM
Since you only have 6 oz I would find some beers known to have heavy simcoe and try them to see if you like it.  Unless your holiday beer is hoppy like Celebration Ale, I would go with them for the American barleywine.  If you make an English barleywine I would skip it for both of those beers and make a big IPA or something.  Simcoe screams American to me, so I would only use them for something where you want that character.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 12, 2013, 07:55:07 PM
Quote
You have to use it and see for yourself. I like it, my wife does not.
  +1

I think it is about personal smell/flavor.  And I really do believe the ability to detect cattiness and dankness is genetic to some degree.  For me, simcoe is all cat-pee and I will avoid using it. In fact, I know of award-winning commercial beers that generously use Simcoe and I nearly gag when smelling/tasting, while the person next to me is in hop euphoria. I am not arguing with those that love the aroma and flavor.  I'm sure that's what they experience.  So, long story short, use your own judgement.  And there are a lot of commercial beers to help with Simcoe research ;)

We all have different thresholds for 4MMP, which is the cat pee compound. Many women are sensitive to it. I generally get pine and citrus, but if it is really skanky, I see what the wife is objecting to. Full disclaimer, I clean the cat boxes in our house.

Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: fmader on November 13, 2013, 04:14:04 AM
Simcoe spells IPA to me. I don't find it "catty"... In fact I'm still trying to figure out what the hell that means lol. I find it straight piny. I like to describe it as chinook on steroids. I like it single hopped, but I think it pairs best with centennial from what I've paired it with. I have not tried it with citra but I have Amarillo. Unlike most people, I'm not huge on that combo. I find the flavors clash. Try it for yourself, I think you'll like it!
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: gmwren on November 13, 2013, 06:34:32 AM
Quote
You have to use it and see for yourself. I like it, my wife does not.
  +1

I think it is about personal smell/flavor.  And I really do believe the ability to detect cattiness and dankness is genetic to some degree.  For me, simcoe is all cat-pee and I will avoid using it. In fact, I know of award-winning commercial beers that generously use Simcoe and I nearly gag when smelling/tasting, while the person next to me is in hop euphoria. I am not arguing with those that love the aroma and flavor.  I'm sure that's what they experience.  So, long story short, use your own judgement.  And there are a lot of commercial beers to help with Simcoe research ;)

We all have different thresholds for 4MMP, which is the cat pee compound. Many women are sensitive to it. I generally get pine and citrus, but if it is really skanky, I see what the wife is objecting to. Full disclaimer, I clean the cat boxes in our house.

So where in the brewing process is the 4MMP most pronounced? Long boils? Whirlpooling?, Dry hop? Does hop terroir affect this? What is the flash point? I like this hop when the cat pee is VERY subdued, so there has to be a way around it.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: brewmichigan on November 13, 2013, 06:50:29 AM
Quote
You have to use it and see for yourself. I like it, my wife does not.
  +1

I think it is about personal smell/flavor.  And I really do believe the ability to detect cattiness and dankness is genetic to some degree.  For me, simcoe is all cat-pee and I will avoid using it. In fact, I know of award-winning commercial beers that generously use Simcoe and I nearly gag when smelling/tasting, while the person next to me is in hop euphoria. I am not arguing with those that love the aroma and flavor.  I'm sure that's what they experience.  So, long story short, use your own judgement.  And there are a lot of commercial beers to help with Simcoe research ;)

We all have different thresholds for 4MMP, which is the cat pee compound. Many women are sensitive to it. I generally get pine and citrus, but if it is really skanky, I see what the wife is objecting to. Full disclaimer, I clean the cat boxes in our house.

So where in the brewing process is the 4MMP most pronounced? Long boils? Whirlpooling?, Dry hop? Does hop terroir affect this? What is the flash point? I like this hop when the cat pee is VERY subdued, so there has to be a way around it.

I believe it is just a compound this hop has more of than others. The only thing I can think of that might eliminate it would be dry hopping since in won't be in the boil but maybe not. What do you think Jeff?
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: beersk on November 13, 2013, 07:14:54 AM
Quote
You have to use it and see for yourself. I like it, my wife does not.
  +1

I think it is about personal smell/flavor.  And I really do believe the ability to detect cattiness and dankness is genetic to some degree.  For me, simcoe is all cat-pee and I will avoid using it. In fact, I know of award-winning commercial beers that generously use Simcoe and I nearly gag when smelling/tasting, while the person next to me is in hop euphoria. I am not arguing with those that love the aroma and flavor.  I'm sure that's what they experience.  So, long story short, use your own judgement.  And there are a lot of commercial beers to help with Simcoe research ;)

I agree with the cattiness comments.  It smells like a dirty liter box to me…but it is popular nonetheless.  I think if you are careful with it and pair it well with some other hops, specifically amarillo and citra as other have said, it can be drinkable.  I think it a personal preference.  Try it out and see what you think. 

Cheers!
It smells like Ammonia? You have a f*cked up sense of smell!

I like Simcoe, I don't get the whole cat pee thing people describe...are you sticking your nose in your cat's litter box after he/she goes? Simcoe doesn't burn the nostrils like cleaning my cat's litter box does.

I get more of a pine/citrus thing. It's definitely a unique hop and it is strange that so many people either love it or hate it. There doesn't seem to be much of a gray area.

But Simcoe definitely goes well with either Chinook or Amarillo, or both. One of my favorite hop combos I use in my black IPA is Cascade, Chinook, Simcoe. It's nice. Also the same combo as New Belgium's Ranger, come to find out. That's a solid IPA.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: kramerog on November 13, 2013, 07:46:53 AM
When the cat box is changed I think Simcoe.  I used to find cattiness highly objectionable, now I'm close to neutral.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 13, 2013, 08:22:54 AM
As posted earlier I wonder if there could be a genetic thing, like how some people perceive the smell and taste of cilantro.  I love it (and Simcoe), but some people perceive cilantro as a disgusting plastic aroma and flavor.  Simcoe is definitely polarizing like that.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: goschman on November 13, 2013, 09:22:11 AM
Chalk me up as one who loves Simcoe and has never gotten "cattyness"

Seems like some of the discussion I have seen about Summit which can have any onion or garlic flavor/aroma. I enjoy most beers that I have tried which use Summit. I don't know much about Summit but doesn't the adverse characteristics have have something to do with how/when it is harvested? Could it be something similar for Simcoe?
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: denny on November 13, 2013, 09:27:25 AM
Could it be a "terroir" kinda thing, like the onion/garlic perception of Summit?  I have gotten batches of Summit where that was overwhelming and others where it was non existent.  The explanation I have been given was that it depends on growth conditions.  Could it be the same kind of thing with Simcoe?
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: wissota on November 13, 2013, 09:36:44 AM
Quote
It smells like Ammonia? You have a f*cked up sense of smell!

How do you know what I smell?  And how do we all know we are smelling/tasting the same things?  As I said, I don't doubt that others only get awesome smells from Simcoe, but I get a totally different experience.  To me,this means there has to be a genetic component.  And I am sure that these catty smells will vary from batch to batch, but I have drank the same beer next to others that get zero cattiness, and all I get is urine.  Sad, but at lease there are plenty other hops out there for me to enjoy!
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: brewmichigan on November 13, 2013, 09:46:15 AM
Could it be a "terroir" kinda thing, like the onion/garlic perception of Summit?  I have gotten batches of Summit where that was overwhelming and others where it was non existent.  The explanation I have been given was that it depends on growth conditions.  Could it be the same kind of thing with Simcoe?

This might make sense except I believe Simcoe is a proprietary variety and only grown on one farm.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: beersk on November 13, 2013, 10:11:22 AM
Quote
It smells like Ammonia? You have a f*cked up sense of smell!

How do you know what I smell?  And how do we all know we are smelling/tasting the same things?  As I said, I don't doubt that others only get awesome smells from Simcoe, but I get a totally different experience.  To me,this means there has to be a genetic component.  And I am sure that these catty smells will vary from batch to batch, but I have drank the same beer next to others that get zero cattiness, and all I get is urine.  Sad, but at lease there are plenty other hops out there for me to enjoy!
Okay, but if you'd never heard anyone else describe it as "catty" (which that description drives me up the wall), would you have come to the same conclusion on its description? Some descriptions people use are crazy. Bready, doughy, earthy, spicy...I get. But catty? Might be a genetic thing, but there is certainly no ammonia in your hops. And I'm sure they don't burn your nose either when you smell them.
But either way, I think I'm complaining to a brick wall here. You smell what you smell. The only constant is the thing you're smelling. Simcoe smells like Simcoe, regardless of what you perceive.  This reminds me of the Matrix...
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: denny on November 13, 2013, 10:46:58 AM
Could it be a "terroir" kinda thing, like the onion/garlic perception of Summit?  I have gotten batches of Summit where that was overwhelming and others where it was non existent.  The explanation I have been given was that it depends on growth conditions.  Could it be the same kind of thing with Simcoe?

This might make sense except I believe Simcoe is a proprietary variety and only grown on one farm.

Geez, man, just shred my theory, why doncha?  ;)
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: wissota on November 13, 2013, 10:50:19 AM
Quote
Okay, but if you'd never heard anyone else describe it as "catty" (which that description drives me up the wall), would you have come to the same conclusion on its description? Some descriptions people use are crazy. Bready, doughy, earthy, spicy...I get. But catty? Might be a genetic thing, but there is certainly no ammonia in your hops. And I'm sure they don't burn your nose either when you smell them.
But either way, I think I'm complaining to a brick wall here. You smell what you smell. The only constant is the thing you're smelling. Simcoe smells like Simcoe, regardless of what you perceive.  This reminds me of the Matrix...

I don't understand your point.  Whenever we describe tastes and smells aren't we always trying to compare it to other things that gave us similar experiences?  When I smelled cat pee it had NOTHING to do with other peoples experiences, but the smell to me best compared to times when I have smelled cat pee.   In the end, EVERY taste and smell we experience is relative, and so that's the only way we can describe it to others.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 13, 2013, 11:03:59 AM
Could it be a "terroir" kinda thing, like the onion/garlic perception of Summit?  I have gotten batches of Summit where that was overwhelming and others where it was non existent.  The explanation I have been given was that it depends on growth conditions.  Could it be the same kind of thing with Simcoe?

This might make sense except I believe Simcoe is a proprietary variety and only grown on one farm.
Simcoe is proprietary. It is grown on at least 3 farms according to the Hopunion Hop Variety Handbook. On a video, Vinnie Cilurzo sais he uses Simcoe differently (boil, dry hop, etc) depending on which farm it was grown on.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: brewmichigan on November 13, 2013, 11:40:41 AM
Could it be a "terroir" kinda thing, like the onion/garlic perception of Summit?  I have gotten batches of Summit where that was overwhelming and others where it was non existent.  The explanation I have been given was that it depends on growth conditions.  Could it be the same kind of thing with Simcoe?

This might make sense except I believe Simcoe is a proprietary variety and only grown on one farm.
Simcoe is proprietary. It is grown on at least 3 farms according to the Hopunion Hop Variety Handbook. On a video, Vinnie Cilurzo sais he uses Simcoe differently (boil, dry hop, etc) depending on which farm it was grown on.

I don't have a "bow down" emoticon.  ;)

How can we know as consumers what farm ours was grown on? Are they all close to each other (same climate, similar soil, etc) or is one in Utah and the others in Washington?
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: denny on November 13, 2013, 11:47:26 AM
I don't have a "bow down" emoticon.  ;)

Here ya go!

(http://www.brews-bros.com/public/style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 13, 2013, 12:12:57 PM
Could it be a "terroir" kinda thing, like the onion/garlic perception of Summit?  I have gotten batches of Summit where that was overwhelming and others where it was non existent.  The explanation I have been given was that it depends on growth conditions.  Could it be the same kind of thing with Simcoe?

This might make sense except I believe Simcoe is a proprietary variety and only grown on one farm.
Simcoe is proprietary. It is grown on at least 3 farms according to the Hopunion Hop Variety Handbook. On a video, Vinnie Cilurzo sais he uses Simcoe differently (boil, dry hop, etc) depending on which farm it was grown on.

I don't have a "bow down" emoticon.  ;)

How can we know as consumers what farm ours was grown on? Are they all close to each other (same climate, similar soil, etc) or is one in Utah and the others in Washington?
From memory, the farms are, Carpenter, Loftus, and Perrault. I don't know the exact locations of those. I know that hops are grown near Moxee, Toppenish, and from Sunnyside to Prosser. So different sections of the valley.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 13, 2013, 12:14:53 PM
Amarillo was the hop Mike was thinking of, it was grown on one farm, but a year or 2 ago I heard that another farm was brought on to help meet demand.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: klickitat jim on November 13, 2013, 12:50:30 PM
I think it has to do with where you brew with them. I live on the south slope of the Simcoe mountains. Must be the trick.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: morticaixavier on November 15, 2013, 09:59:54 PM
So here's the plan

40 liter batch

12 kg pale malt
450 grams crystal 60L
360 grams Munich malt (I've got it, and it might add a little maltiness + a little color correction)

60 grams magnum FWH (calculated as 20 minutes) giving 28.5 IBU
24 grams simcoe with 5 minutes remaining for 3.2 IBU
24 grams cascade with 5 minutes remaining for 1.3 IBU
60 grams simcoe for a 45 minute hop stand
60 grams cascade for 45 minute hop stand

Ferment half with White labs burton ale and half with reused yeast from Prairie Ale Project 'Merica saison.

Dry hop with 60 grams each simcoe and cascade.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: Stevie on November 15, 2013, 10:53:46 PM
WLP023 is pretty lively. Use a blowoff.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: denny on November 16, 2013, 09:47:04 AM
Thoughts?

I get a lot of flavor from FWH.  I hate Magnum as a flavor or aroma hop.  YMMV.  Something to consider.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: morticaixavier on November 16, 2013, 10:05:19 AM
Thoughts?

I get a lot of flavor from FWH.  I hate Magnum as a flavor or aroma hop.  YMMV.  Something to consider.

I did consider that. maybe just move it to 60 miutes
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: klickitat jim on November 16, 2013, 10:49:30 AM
I'd bitter with Simcoe FWH
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: morticaixavier on November 16, 2013, 01:51:46 PM
I'd bitter with Simcoe FWH

I could do that but I'd have to figure out where to pull it from cause this recipe already has all the simcoe I own in it. I suppose I could order for the dry hop.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: morticaixavier on November 16, 2013, 05:14:26 PM
K so moved some stuff around.

now,

44 grams Simcoe, 34 grams cascade @ FWH
60 grams simcoe, 60 grams cascade Hop stand (45 minutes)
50 grams simcoe, 50 grams cacade dry hop
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 16, 2013, 06:27:22 PM
K so moved some stuff around.

now,

44 grams Simcoe, 34 grams cascade @ FWH
60 grams simcoe, 60 grams cascade Hop stand (45 minutes)
50 grams simcoe, 50 grams cacade dry hop
Looks pretty tasty !
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: klickitat jim on November 17, 2013, 09:25:24 AM
I think you'll like it. I think Simcoe bittered beer is best with a month of conditioning
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: morticaixavier on December 06, 2013, 04:55:34 PM
Well I kegged half of this batch that was fermented with slurry from a prior batch that was itself grown up from dregs from a bottle of Prairie Ale 'Merica saison. I don't know what this yeast is beyond that they condition with a white wine yeast and two strains of brett.

I added 25 grams each simcoe and cascade to the keg in a fine mesh bag and let it settle for a couple days.

First pour was cloudy and pretty thick with yeast and a huge in your face hop/dank/grapefruit bomb. I am often reminded, because the idea just doesn't seem to stay in my head, that grapefruit is a really complex kinda funky aroma. I mean there is the clean sweet citrus but there is also some muskiness in grapefruit so I think the simcoe is actually accentuating that grapefruit aspect from the cascade.

after a couple more days and a couple more pours it's less yeasty and some of the explosive hop character is settled down (at least some must have been carryover with the yeast) but it's still quite nice and very hoppy.

I don't usually brew really hoppy beer but this is one for sure.

It's going to my brew clubs xmas bash tomorrow night, let's see what others think.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: Stevie on December 06, 2013, 05:07:29 PM
It's going to my brew clubs xmas bash tomorrow night, let's see what others think.

They are going to hate it. Just package it up and ship it to me.
Title: Re: simcoe
Post by: morticaixavier on December 06, 2013, 10:11:04 PM
It's going to my brew clubs xmas bash tomorrow night, let's see what others think.

They are going to hate it. Just package it up and ship it to me.

I'll pack a bottle up before it goes and ship it out to you.

Merry GBA xmas