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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 04:53:47 PM

Title: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 04:53:47 PM
Has anybody figured out how to use centennial and not have taste of fruit loops (excluding bittering)? I like a lot of commercial beers that use a lot of centennial and don't get much if any fruit loop flavors.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: singletrack brewer on November 22, 2013, 04:59:15 PM
The fruit loop flavor could be from specific yeast strains.  Some like S-04 can get quite fruity at fermentation temps above 66 degrees.  The fruity esters combined with the nice citrusy punch from Centennial could be causing the fruit loop flavor you are describing.  To avoid this I generally ferment cooler and use a more neutral yeast.  Something like S-05/Nottingham or WLP-001 in the low 60s. 
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 06:12:39 PM
I have used 001, 1056, 05 as well as several english strains that were recommended by the commercial brewery that gave the recipes. All were fermented cool, say 62 to 66 for the english and 64 to 65 cal ale. Didn't know if it old hops or when they were added or ect.

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Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: tschmidlin on November 22, 2013, 06:16:06 PM
I've fermented with BRY97, US05, S04, and 1056, all around 67F and I've never gotten fruit loops from centennial.  Was this just a one time thing or something you see consistently?
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 22, 2013, 06:18:14 PM
I've fermented with BRY97, US05, S04, and 1056, all around 67F and I've never gotten fruit loops from centennial. 

+1.  Same here.  I have used ALOT of Centennial over the years and haven't gotten it.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: tschmidlin on November 22, 2013, 06:25:30 PM
You don't by any chance use iodophor as a sanitizer do you?
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 06:47:17 PM
You don't by any chance use iodophor as a sanitizer do you?
Starsan only. They are in recipes like SN Celebration and FS Union Jack given from the brewery.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 06:56:51 PM
I've fermented with BRY97, US05, S04, and 1056, all around 67F and I've never gotten fruit loops from centennial.  Was this just a one time thing or something you see consistently?
Sorry missed this one. Consistently, not real sure if i have never not gotten it.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: tschmidlin on November 22, 2013, 07:01:23 PM
Hmmmm . . . what is your water like?
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: thebigbaker on November 22, 2013, 07:02:30 PM
I've used Centennial many times and have never gotten that flavor from them.  Are these hops from the same producer and/or same homebrew store? 
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 07:08:26 PM
Ro water, hops are from several big online retailers.  Over several years, some are hop union some are strait from the hop farmers.

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Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: tschmidlin on November 22, 2013, 07:34:22 PM
What do you do to your RO water?
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: AmandaK on November 22, 2013, 07:40:05 PM
Ro water, hops are from several big online retailers.  Over several years, some are hop union some are strait from the hop farmers.

You could bring your fruit loops beer to the Christmas party and make us drink them. Perhaps we'll even figure something about this out while drinking Imperial beers!  ;D
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 07:47:10 PM
What do you do to your RO water?
add minerals back possibly cut with tap water if a lot of alkalinity is needed. (Normally isn't)
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 22, 2013, 07:59:37 PM
I could see it happening if you used a British-type strain and maybe went a little warm fermenting - maybe something sort of "fruit-loopy" .  But not with a clean (American) strain regardless.  Maybe there was a fair amount of variability in the Centennial crop from a few farms, but I've always found them very consistent.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: tschmidlin on November 22, 2013, 08:08:58 PM
I've got nothing.  Everything I can think of seems fine.

Have you asked a second opinion?
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 08:09:23 PM
Ro water, hops are from several big online retailers.  Over several years, some are hop union some are strait from the hop farmers.

You could bring your fruit loops beer to the Christmas party and make us drink them. Perhaps we'll even figure something about this out while drinking Imperial beers!  ;D
I can do that, I did had some at the last kcbm meeting but didn't get to it. After several imperial beers you probably won't taste fruit loops anyway.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 22, 2013, 08:13:53 PM
Were these all single-hop beers, or did you blend with other hops?  I could see how blending with Citra or Mosaic for example might give a perception of that.  And did it diminish at all using a clean strain vs a British one ?
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: AmandaK on November 22, 2013, 08:18:43 PM
Ro water, hops are from several big online retailers.  Over several years, some are hop union some are strait from the hop farmers.

You could bring your fruit loops beer to the Christmas party and make us drink them. Perhaps we'll even figure something about this out while drinking Imperial beers!  ;D
I can do that, I did had some at the last kcbm meeting but didn't get to it. After several imperial beers you probably won't taste fruit loops anyway.

Well let's try for a fruit loop beer early in the evening then.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 08:20:31 PM
Were these all single-hop beers, or did you blend with other hops?  I could see how blending with Citra or Mosaic for example might give a perception of that.  And did it diminish at all using a clean strain vs a British one ?
cascade and centennial in both. No real difference between 001 and 002
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: klickitat jim on November 22, 2013, 08:23:52 PM
Maybe a tad of acetaldehyde plus citrus hops, plus a little esters, ending up tasting like fruit loops? Just a guess.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: kmccaf on November 22, 2013, 08:31:06 PM
Do you use a combo of pils+2-row? I sometimes get a candy-like sweetness in my AIPAs when I use a split base of the 2.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 08:37:35 PM
I've got nothing.  Everything I can think of seems fine.

Have you asked a second opinion?
not yet, but have done side by side with the commercial examples that don't have this character.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: tschmidlin on November 22, 2013, 08:40:13 PM
I've got nothing.  Everything I can think of seems fine.

Have you asked a second opinion?
not yet, but have done side by side with the commercial examples that don't have this character.
Maybe Amanda can figure it out when she tastes it.  Let us know, I'm curious if you can track it down.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 08:45:54 PM
I've got nothing.  Everything I can think of seems fine.

Have you asked a second opinion?
not yet, but have done side by side with the commercial examples that don't have this character.
Maybe Amanda can figure it out when she tastes it.  Let us know, I'm curious if you can track it down.
Will do. I have seen the same complaint about centennial online before and not seen a solution.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on November 22, 2013, 08:49:22 PM
Do you use a combo of pils+2-row? I sometimes get a candy-like sweetness in my AIPAs when I use a split base of the 2.
just 2 row and c60 on celebration and 2 row and munich and a pinch of c30 on union Jack.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on December 07, 2013, 10:50:08 PM
I've got nothing.  Everything I can think of seems fine.

Have you asked a second opinion?
not yet, but have done side by side with the commercial examples that don't have this character.
Maybe Amanda can figure it out when she tastes it.  Let us know, I'm curious if you can track it down.
well I am going to say it due to hops interacting with yeast (best guess). With some age (loss of some dry hops) it went away.

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Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 07, 2013, 11:56:09 PM
Meant to ask before - did you dry hop with the Centennial ?
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: natebriscoe on December 08, 2013, 12:53:36 AM
Meant to ask before - did you dry hop with the Centennial ?
  yes cascade and centennial
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 08, 2013, 03:06:35 AM
I would try letting your beer clear a bit, rack to secondary and then do your dry hopping. Stan Hieronymous wrote an article in Zymurgy earlier this year about dry hopping experiments he did. The takeaway was that he felt that hop aroma and flavor was better in beers dry hopped this way. The reason: dry hopping in primary with a fair amount of yeast still in suspension can produce some undesireable aromas/flavors from the interaction of hop compounds with excess yeast. I switched to doing this and I like my hop aroma/flavor better than before - it seems cleaner and better. I'd be curious to see if it prevented this in the future for you. It might.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 08, 2013, 02:13:21 PM
I would try letting your beer clear a bit, rack to secondary and then do your dry hopping. Stan Hieronymous wrote an article in Zymurgy earlier this year about dry hopping experiments he did. The takeaway was that he felt that hop aroma and flavor was better in beers dry hopped this way. The reason: dry hopping in primary with a fair amount of yeast still in suspension can produce some undesireable aromas/flavors from the interaction of hop compounds with excess yeast. I switched to doing this and I like my hop aroma/flavor better than before - it seems cleaner and better. I'd be curious to see if it prevented this in the future for you. It might.
What I got from Stan's NHC talk and articles is that some yeast still in the active stage will give a bio-transformation into aromas that you won't get otherwise. Those are aromas that are desire able, and some brewers like Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker dry hop in primary with about 1 Plato to go, and may add mor dry hops later. On the other hand, Vinnie Cilurzo drops the yeast to dry hop. Both techniques work, I think one needs to think of the desired finished beer aroma, the hops being used, and then select the process to achieve the results.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: majorvices on December 08, 2013, 02:21:07 PM
I find centennial to be the cleanest, perhaps "brightest", of the "C" hops with the best (to my pallet) American IPA citrus-grapefruity aroma and flavor profile. I have never encountered "fruit loops" which, to me, sound like a fermentation issue.

As far as dry hopping with yeast still present IME if the beer is still too hazy with yeast and you dry hop the yeast will pull a lot of aroma down with them as they drop out and you may have to dry hop again. I try to dry hop once the beer clears some. I've gone as far as fined in primary, dumped yeast after a week and dry hopped after beer brightened.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: denny on December 08, 2013, 06:07:41 PM
I would try letting your beer clear a bit, rack to secondary and then do your dry hopping. Stan Hieronymous wrote an article in Zymurgy earlier this year about dry hopping experiments he did. The takeaway was that he felt that hop aroma and flavor was better in beers dry hopped this way. The reason: dry hopping in primary with a fair amount of yeast still in suspension can produce some undesireable aromas/flavors from the interaction of hop compounds with excess yeast. I switched to doing this and I like my hop aroma/flavor better than before - it seems cleaner and better. I'd be curious to see if it prevented this in the future for you. It might.
[/quote

I went back to racking to secondary before dry hopping after reading that article.  It seemed to clear up some off flavors I was getting and it's now my standard practice.
Title: Re: Centennial Fruit loop beers
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 08, 2013, 06:23:23 PM
I would try letting your beer clear a bit, rack to secondary and then do your dry hopping. Stan Hieronymous wrote an article in Zymurgy earlier this year about dry hopping experiments he did. The takeaway was that he felt that hop aroma and flavor was better in beers dry hopped this way. The reason: dry hopping in primary with a fair amount of yeast still in suspension can produce some undesireable aromas/flavors from the interaction of hop compounds with excess yeast. I switched to doing this and I like my hop aroma/flavor better than before - it seems cleaner and better. I'd be curious to see if it prevented this in the future for you. It might.
[/quote

I went back to racking to secondary before dry hopping after reading that article.  It seemed to clear up some off flavors I was getting and it's now my standard practice.

Yeah, for the first IPA I made after reading that article I used the exact recipe I used for the previous one (and I don't do that very often) with the same hop schedule.  Same exact hops too - I had bulk in the freezer. I felt that the hop character was noticeably better. Everybody's process is different, but it worked for me convincingly.