Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: fmader on November 26, 2013, 08:35:15 PM

Title: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on November 26, 2013, 08:35:15 PM
I've only lagered a couple of beers in my brewing experience.... mainly because I prefer ales to lagers. I brewed a Victory Prima Pils clone (Austin Homebrew) last January. It really turned out well, but that was the last time I lagered. I'm thinking about doing another pilsner to take advantage of the cold winter months for fermenting. I'm thinking about going away from the traditional noble hops with this pilsner. Maybe bitter with a touch of Columbus and finish with a combination of Nelson Sauvin and Meridian for a smooth hop flavor. I'm also thinking about dry hopping this deal.... This is where my main question comes into play.... Since this will be fermenting for a couple of months, should I wait to add any dry hops until the last week or so, or do it earlier in fermentation?
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: Pinski on November 26, 2013, 08:50:36 PM
I just kicked my last keg on Nelson Sauvin Pils.  I came out really nice. Totally different nose than a traditional Pils.  I didn't dry hop but if I were going to, I'd wait until a couple weeks prior to my serving target if big aroma is the goal. 
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: blatz on November 26, 2013, 09:05:44 PM
I didn't dry hop but if I were going to, I'd wait until a couple weeks prior to my serving target if big aroma is the goal.

+1
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: weithman5 on November 26, 2013, 10:44:01 PM
if it is not so much the aroma you are after i would consider FWH to maybe get that higher hop flavor without the bite.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on November 26, 2013, 11:05:42 PM
I like the bite.... I'm not buying into this whole replacing 60 minute hops with FWH to avoid "harsh bitterness".... IMO, that bite is what gives any beer a backbone. Now in saying that, I have used FWH and 60 minute additions together in an IPA. I'm finding myself in the minority in this though.... but that's the joy of homebrewing!
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: erockrph on November 26, 2013, 11:33:54 PM
A full-on fruit bomb would be more of a lagered Pale Ale rather than a hoppy Pils. I say split the difference and use a noble-derived hop with some fruit character. A Motueka pils has been on my brew docket for a while. I'm hoping to get to it this lager season. Sterling and Crystal are other good choices.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: blatz on November 27, 2013, 12:35:04 AM
I like the bite.... I'm not buying into this whole replacing 60 minute hops with FWH to avoid "harsh bitterness".... IMO, that bite is what gives any beer a backbone. Now in saying that, I have used FWH and 60 minute additions together in an IPA. I'm finding myself in the minority in this though.... but that's the joy of homebrewing!

Eh I think you're making a broad generalization there - I've started to replace the 60 min addition with just FWH for a lot of my German lagers (though not Pilsner) as the "bite" in an Oktoberfest or other is a little off.  Now on a lot of other styles, particularly IPA, I'm with you!
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on November 27, 2013, 01:10:22 AM
I like the bite.... I'm not buying into this whole replacing 60 minute hops with FWH to avoid "harsh bitterness".... IMO, that bite is what gives any beer a backbone. Now in saying that, I have used FWH and 60 minute additions together in an IPA. I'm finding myself in the minority in this though.... but that's the joy of homebrewing!

Eh I think you're making a broad generalization there - I've started to replace the 60 min addition with just FWH for a lot of my German lagers (though not Pilsner) as the "bite" in an Oktoberfest or other is a little off.  Now on a lot of other styles, particularly IPA, I'm with you!

Yeah maybe I jumped the gun on that. I have little experience with lagers/pilsners. Probably a little out of line too lol... What I'm looking for is a dank bitterness... Maybe 1/2 oz Columbus to bitter then maybe 1/2 oz Nelson and meridian at 15 and 0. The more I think about it, the less I want to dry hop. I don't necessarily want a fruit bomb, but just use non traditional pilsner hops.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: blatz on November 27, 2013, 03:34:33 PM
frank - although i have no experience with meridian, and have only had nelson in commercial beers, I think I've heard that both of those hops tend to be rather fruity - perhaps you might want to include some columbus in the late boil to create what you are describing?
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: Pinski on November 27, 2013, 04:08:30 PM
frank - although i have no experience with meridian, and have only had nelson in commercial beers, I think I've heard that both of those hops tend to be rather fruity - perhaps you might want to include some columbus in the late boil to create what you are describing?

Agreed, my taste on the Nelson Sauvin is very fruity and I definitely pick up white wine notes. 
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 27, 2013, 04:44:47 PM
At the NHC I had a lager on tap during club night that got some good reviews. It was vanguard, Santium, and a lot of crystal to finish, dry hopped with a little crystal.

Bells makes Quinannan Falls Special lager, which is dry hopped with Simcoe. That was the inspiration for my beer.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: denny on November 27, 2013, 04:53:31 PM
Now in saying that, I have used FWH and 60 minute additions together in an IPA. I'm finding myself in the minority in this though.... but that's the joy of homebrewing!

we may be a minority, Frank, but we're right!  ;)
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: erockrph on November 27, 2013, 11:18:47 PM
frank - although i have no experience with meridian, and have only had nelson in commercial beers, I think I've heard that both of those hops tend to be rather fruity - perhaps you might want to include some columbus in the late boil to create what you are describing?

Nelson has a little resin to it, but not much compared to the fruitiness. If you're looking for dank in the flavor/aroma then I'd add some Columbus late. If you're just looking for some more bite to the bitterness with a fruity flavor/aroma, then Columbus at 60, followed by Nelson and Meridian late sounds mighty tasty.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on December 29, 2013, 12:37:14 AM
Ok...came up with this for the next brew...

Batch = 5.5
OG = 1.047
60 minute mash @ 151

Pilsner Malt = 9 lb
Carahell = 5 oz

60 minute = .5 oz Columbus
20 minute = .25 oz Columbus, .5 oz Nelson Sauvin, .5 oz Meridian
10 minute = .5 oz Nelson Sauvin and .5 oz Meridian
0 minute = .25 oz Columbus, 1 oz Nelson Sauvin and 1 oz Meridian

White Labs WLP800 Pilsner Lager (Starter)
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 29, 2013, 01:30:43 AM
Ok...came up with this for the next brew...

Batch = 5.5
OG = 1.047
60 minute mash @ 151

Pilsner Malt = 9 lb
Carahell = 5 oz

60 minute = .5 oz Columbus
20 minute = .25 oz Columbus, .5 oz Nelson Sauvin, .5 oz Meridian
10 minute = .5 oz Nelson Sauvin and .5 oz Meridian
0 minute = .25 oz Columbus, 1 oz Nelson Sauvin and 1 oz Meridian

White Labs WLP800 Pilsner Lager (Starter)


That looks pretty solid.  You'll have to let us know how it comes out !
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: goschman on December 29, 2013, 01:47:50 AM
I like the idea and think it will be really good. I just did a pretty standard Kolsch recipe with Amarillo for flavor and aroma while keeping the IBUs within guidelines. I should probably do a traditional Kolsch but unfortunately I have the habit of changing the tried and true...
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on December 29, 2013, 01:59:30 AM
Let you know in a couple months lol
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on January 18, 2014, 01:42:42 AM
I got this brewed today. All and all it was a good brew day. The wort smelled delicious in the carboy. I had a little longer hopstand than I wanted by about 25 minutes... Forgot to turn on the water lol. I also overshot the gravity and it 1.053 instead of 1.047... I'm not too concerned with either error though. Will have results in about 7 weeks.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 18, 2014, 02:11:53 AM
That looks pretty similar in hop schedule to my last IPL.  1.053 sounds like a better foundation for those hops, so I wouldn't worry. Can't wait to hear how it turns out !
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on March 02, 2014, 08:41:11 PM
We tapped this yesterday afternoon. This beer turned out very well. It has a nice hop presence, but it doesn't impede it from also tasting like a pilsner. You first taste the fruitiness of the Nelson and meridian hops, but the Columbus finishes it off to keep the fruit in check. I'm very pleased with this beer.

(http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s564/Frank_Mader/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps21098933.jpg)
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: goschman on March 04, 2014, 09:47:01 PM
Looks great! How many IBUs did that calculate at?

I tried to do a 'hoppy wheat' last summer and ended up making one of my worst beers. Too much columbus hops made it taste like drinking perfume. That was quite a learning experience...
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on March 04, 2014, 10:46:56 PM
Looks great! How many IBUs did that calculate at?

I tried to do a 'hoppy wheat' last summer and ended up making one of my worst beers. Too much columbus hops made it taste like drinking perfume. That was quite a learning experience...

I'm not positive. I think I figured a rough estimate based on a half oz of Columbus at 60, but the rest was just by feel. I'm never happy with with setting an IBU target and calculating for it and never reach the desired bitterness. For instance, the zymurgy Pliny recipe has a measured IBU that is considerably lower than it would be if calculated. After that experience, I just sorta go by feel or instinct with hops. In saying that, this beer a very pleasant hop flavor. It's not overkill, but rather what I was kinda looking for. I suppose it's 40-50 IBUs?
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: goschman on March 04, 2014, 11:12:11 PM
Got ya. I am not very good at doing things by feel or calculations at this point really...haha. Maybe eventually...
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 04, 2014, 11:28:51 PM
Got ya. I am not very good at doing things by feel or calculations at this point really...haha. Maybe eventually...

Not a thing wrong with that. It's a good idea to work out your IBUs with software at least until you've brewed a style a time or two. Then you can fine tune your hops by feel afterward for the next rebrew if you like. It's what I do. That's where taking really good notes comes in - I write down recommendations after tasting each beer I brew on how to improve it the next time I brew it. Beats trying to remember if you brew a lot of styles !
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on March 04, 2014, 11:42:04 PM
Got ya. I am not very good at doing things by feel or calculations at this point really...haha. Maybe eventually...

Not a thing wrong with that. It's a good idea to work out your IBUs with software at least until you've brewed a style a time or two. Then you can fine tune your hops by feel afterward for the next rebrew if you like. It's what I do. That's where taking really good notes comes in - I write down recommendations after tasting each beer I brew on how to improve it the next time I brew it. Beats trying to remember if you brew a lot of styles !

+1
Yeah, what I do is not best practice by any means. If I came off towards you in a negative manner, I apologize, because that wasn't my intentions. I was more or less covering up my tracks to why I didn't have an exact number on IBUs  :P
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 05, 2014, 12:07:46 AM
No, no, no !  Wasn't even thinking that way. All good. ;D
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: goschman on March 05, 2014, 12:09:36 AM
No I wasn't offended whatsoever either. I was jealous because I have issues getting the intended outcome in a lot of my beers in regards to hop balance. Somehow I overcomplicate matters and seem to miss more than hit...
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 05, 2014, 12:12:51 AM
Just made me think of when I was getting a handle on hops - I always overshot or undershot my hop levels. Wish the good software had been around then ! For a while having really good notes on past beers was my best friend to duplicate something !
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 05, 2014, 12:22:22 AM
Actually makes me look forward to getting a lager fridge soon, to replace the one that burned out over a year ago. I haven't brewed a lager since. I could've but didn't want to tie up the fermentation fridge with lagering time. It's fun to brew lagers with a hop schedule like that -IPL style. Gonna make the first one in the new fridge a BoPils though !
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on March 05, 2014, 12:34:41 AM
Actually makes me look forward to getting a lager fridge soon, to replace the one that burned out over a year ago. I haven't brewed a lager since. I could've but didn't want to tie up the fermentation fridge with lagering time. It's fun to brew lagers with a hop schedule like that -IPL style. Gonna make the first one in the new fridge a BoPils though !

Haha this has only been my third or fourth lager and I think the one that was truly done correctly. The other ones were grain kits too. I actually fermented this one with a heat blanket on it. I took advantage of the relentless polar vortex and fermented this in the garage. I lagered it a little higher than I should have. My keezer is set at 38, so that's where it was lagered at.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 05, 2014, 12:37:56 AM
Actually makes me look forward to getting a lager fridge soon, to replace the one that burned out over a year ago. I haven't brewed a lager since. I could've but didn't want to tie up the fermentation fridge with lagering time. It's fun to brew lagers with a hop schedule like that -IPL style. Gonna make the first one in the new fridge a BoPils though !

Haha this has only been my third or fourth lager and I think the one that was truly done correctly. The other ones were grain kits too. I actually fermented this one with a heat blanket on it. I took advantage of the relentless polar vortex and fermented this in the garage. I lagered it a little higher than I should have. My keezer is set at 38, so that's where it was lagered at.

This was the winter to do that, for sure !  Relentless.
Title: Re: Hoppy Pilsner..... Maybe?
Post by: fmader on March 05, 2014, 12:42:17 AM
No I wasn't offended whatsoever either. I was jealous because I have issues getting the intended outcome in a lot of my beers in regards to hop balance. Somehow I overcomplicate matters and seem to miss more than hit...
I'm still relatively new in this hobby. I'm coming up on my 2 year anniversary her in a couple weeks. For some reason I feel more comfortable with hops than other aspects of brewing. It's the part where you can let your imagination take over and put your thumbprint on a brew. I guess start familiarizing yourself with identifying the hops that are present in beers. I drink a lot of IPAs so there is a lot if practice. If I'm at a bar or  restaurant, I try and pick a beer that I'm not familiar with and try and guess the hop combination in it. Then I'll pull my phone out and look it up to see how close I am. Thus really irritates the hell out of the old lady  :P if you can start doing this well, then you'll start gaining an idea of what you want in a hop combination in a beer.