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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 06:47:43 PM

Title: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 06:47:43 PM
I was looking for some feedback on using a base malt only and mashing at say 158f while using cal ale yeast. All the calculators say it should finish at 1.020-22. In my experience mashing at 156f, the lowest i can get the fg is 1.018. All of this is because i look at a recipe from a commercial brewery that is 90% base and 10% caramel and mashes at 158f, with cal ale yeast and getting to 1.016 fg. which i can't get to. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on November 27, 2013, 06:54:19 PM
I was looking for some feedback on using a base malt only and mashing at say 158f while using cal ale yeast. All the calculators say it should finish at 1.020-22. In my experience mashing at 156f, the lowest i can get the fg is 1.018. All of this is because i look at a recipe from a commercial brewery that is 90% base and 10% caramel and mashes at 158f, with cal ale yeast and getting to 1.016 fg. which i can't get to. Any thoughts?

First, forget what any calculators say.  They're only guessing and they my be right and they may not.  They're pretty much just looking at yeast attenuation ratings, which are not necessarily a good way to predict attenuation.   

Have you calibrated your thermometers?
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: morticaixavier on November 27, 2013, 06:57:19 PM
I was looking for some feedback on using a base malt only and mashing at say 158f while using cal ale yeast. All the calculators say it should finish at 1.020-22. In my experience mashing at 156f, the lowest i can get the fg is 1.018. All of this is because i look at a recipe from a commercial brewery that is 90% base and 10% caramel and mashes at 158f, with cal ale yeast and getting to 1.016 fg. which i can't get to. Any thoughts?

First, forget what any calculators say.  They're only guessing and they my be right and they may not.  They're pretty much just looking at yeast attenuation ratings, which are not necessarily a good way to predict attenuation.   

Have you calibrated your thermometers?

+1 to calibrating your instruments. I can often get a 1.060ish beer mashed at 155-158 to finish in the 1.012ish range.

Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 06:58:35 PM
I was looking for some feedback on using a base malt only and mashing at say 158f while using cal ale yeast. All the calculators say it should finish at 1.020-22. In my experience mashing at 156f, the lowest i can get the fg is 1.018. All of this is because i look at a recipe from a commercial brewery that is 90% base and 10% caramel and mashes at 158f, with cal ale yeast and getting to 1.016 fg. which i can't get to. Any thoughts?

First, forget what any calculators say.  They're only guessing and they my be right and they may not.  They're pretty much just looking at yeast attenuation ratings, which are not necessarily a good way to predict attenuation.   

Have you calibrated your thermometers?
well i'm not going on the calculators only, from experience 156 puts me at 1.018. The calculators are almost always dead on for me and I am using several very accurate thermometers.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 06:59:26 PM
I was looking for some feedback on using a base malt only and mashing at say 158f while using cal ale yeast. All the calculators say it should finish at 1.020-22. In my experience mashing at 156f, the lowest i can get the fg is 1.018. All of this is because i look at a recipe from a commercial brewery that is 90% base and 10% caramel and mashes at 158f, with cal ale yeast and getting to 1.016 fg. which i can't get to. Any thoughts?

First, forget what any calculators say.  They're only guessing and they my be right and they may not.  They're pretty much just looking at yeast attenuation ratings, which are not necessarily a good way to predict attenuation.   

Have you calibrated your thermometers?

+1 to calibrating your instruments. I can often get a 1.060ish beer mashed at 155-158 to finish in the 1.012ish range.
what's your procedure? Mash out?
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 07:05:06 PM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on November 27, 2013, 07:13:44 PM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

ETA:  OK, went back and checked info and there is nothing to indicate they do anything other than a single infusion for this beer.  We I was there brewing an alt for Beer Camp, we did a step mash (at their brewer's insistence) but I don't recall if there was a mashout.  Maybe Jeff will have some info from when he was there.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 07:21:37 PM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

How do you know your thermometers are accurate?
I have checked them all to 2 lab thermometers. Matching up with beersmith also makes me feel that thier pretty close. Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on November 27, 2013, 07:23:51 PM
Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.

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Are you fly sparging?
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: jeffy on November 27, 2013, 07:24:38 PM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

How do you know your thermometers are accurate?

Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.

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This would mean that your mash rested longer at sacc rest temps, which would have promoted more attenuative wort, I think.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 09:44:57 PM
Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.

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Are you fly sparging?
yes, with a mashout prior to.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 09:48:12 PM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

How do you know your thermometers are accurate?

Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.

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This would mean that your mash rested longer at sacc rest temps, which would have promoted more attenuative wort, I think.
that's correct, which is why I had to go to a mashout.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: morticaixavier on November 27, 2013, 09:51:59 PM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

How do you know your thermometers are accurate?

Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.

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This would mean that your mash rested longer at sacc rest temps, which would have promoted more attenuative wort, I think.
that's correct, which is why I had to go to a mashout.

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I'm confused, if you want greater attenuation and you have noticed greater attenuation when you skip the mashout step then try skipping the mashout step. Perhaps you are not getting full beta conversion and denaturing the beta amylase with your mashout step before it has done all it can do with that mash.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 09:52:30 PM
Ok, so, what would be the major difference between using a lower mash temp vs not mashing out and getting a more fermentable wort?

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 27, 2013, 09:59:24 PM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

How do you know your thermometers are accurate?

Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.

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This would mean that your mash rested longer at sacc rest temps, which would have promoted more attenuative wort, I think.
that's correct, which is why I had to go to a mashout.

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I'm confused, if you want greater attenuation and you have noticed greater attenuation when you skip the mashout step then try skipping the mashout step. Perhaps you are not getting full beta conversion and denaturing the beta amylase with your mashout step before it has done all it can do with that mash.
because I'm trying to follow a commercial recipe, which has a mash temp of 158f (less beta more alpa). But I can't seem to make those numbers work. Would I be missing something in the body/mouthfeel by just using a lower mash temp or mashing high with no mashout.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: morticaixavier on November 27, 2013, 10:12:05 PM
Ok, so, what would be the major difference between using a lower mash temp vs not mashing out and getting a more fermentable wort?

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don't know, you would have to do a side by side.

Here's what I THINK might be the difference:
Enzymatic reactions tend to occur faster at higher temps. Higher temps also favor Alpha over Beta amylase viability, however as far as I know, Beta amylase still works faster at higher temps, it's just no longer in the 'sweet spot' for it up around 158. So I suspect that the beta amylase will still do it's work more completely (more fermentable wort) in a given amount of time at the slightly higher mash temp.

Beta amylase works on sugars that Alpha amylase has already taken a turn with so while you may have 100% conversion how much of that is highly fermentable Beta products and how much is less fermentable Alpha products will vary given how long the Beta amylase has to work on the already 100% converted (as far as the alpha amylase is concerned anyway) wort.

Now, a proper mashout will fairly quickly stop all or most enzymatic action dead so no new conversion from Alpha products to Beta products will occur.

It seems possible to me that if you skip the mashout and fly sparge for say 45 minutes to an hour your are getting significantly more Beta products.

That's my guess anyway.

And if you are trying to clone SN Celebration and they don't do a mashout step then I would not do a mashout step.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 27, 2013, 11:05:20 PM
When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: morticaixavier on November 27, 2013, 11:13:32 PM
When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 27, 2013, 11:29:42 PM
When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

I was pretty vague in terms of amounts  -  I used 160ppm CaSO4 and 80ppm CaCl2.  I thought it worked pretty well.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 28, 2013, 12:19:10 AM
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

ETA:  OK, went back and checked info and there is nothing to indicate they do anything other than a single infusion for this beer.  We I was there brewing an alt for Beer Camp, we did a step mash (at their brewer's insistence) but I don't recall if there was a mashout.  Maybe Jeff will have some info from when he was there.
i remember them saying they usually mash at 158F which surprised us. But with their base malt and system it works. Mash out? Can't remember. I do remember the first lauter stuck, and a half bag of rice hulls were used in the second lauter.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 28, 2013, 12:39:22 AM
When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?
SN says 90 base 10 English c60, which I have used, but I find to be syrupy sweet at those amounts even after adjusting to hit the right fg.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 28, 2013, 12:53:41 AM
When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?
SN says 90 base 10 English c60, which I have used, but I find to be syrupy sweet at those amounts even after adjusting to hit the right fg.

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their base malt is NA 2Row, Rahr or Great Western. English C60 is the crystal. They probably use a high amount of SO4 to get the finish dry, and they have lots of healthy Chico yeast to use.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 28, 2013, 12:57:32 AM
+1 to gypsum.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 28, 2013, 01:00:37 AM
When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?
SN says 90 base 10 English c60, which I have used, but I find to be syrupy sweet at those amounts even after adjusting to hit the right fg.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
their base malt is NA 2Row, Rahr or Great Western. English C60 is the crystal. They probably use a high amount of SO4 to get the finish dry, and they have lots of healthy Chico yeast to use.
that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on November 28, 2013, 05:48:50 PM
that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.

Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 28, 2013, 08:27:02 PM
that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.

Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.
  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.   
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on November 28, 2013, 08:55:32 PM
  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.
[/quote]

I doubt a brewer as big and high quality as SN would allow measurements that are that far off.  I know that when we brewed on the pilot system everything was carefully weighed.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 29, 2013, 02:37:18 AM
that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.

Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.
  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.

I can't say for certain, but I think beers like Celebration are brewed on the 100 barrel copper direct fired system. The 200 bbl is Copper on the outside for looks, SS on the inside, with a calandra to supply the heat. More Maillard reactions on the copper direct faired system.

Edit - to be more exact, listen to the Brewing network interview with Steve Dressler he gives the recipe for Celebration at the end. Now I think he rattled off all of the details for 200 bbls. He specifies malt and hops in his quantities, up to the homebrewer to scale it down.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 29, 2013, 02:38:24 PM
Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.
[/quote]  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.
[/quote]

I can't say for certain, but I think beers like Celebration are brewed on the 100 barrel copper direct fired system. The 200 bbl is Copper on the outside for looks, SS on the inside, with a calandra to supply the heat. More Maillard reactions on the copper direct faired system.

Edit - to be more exact, listen to the Brewing network interview with Steve Dressler he gives the recipe for Celebration at the end. Now I think he rattled off all of the details for 200 bbls. He specifies malt and hops in his quantities, up to the homebrewer to scale it down.
[/quote] I have listened to their interview before (a good interview), they just didn't get specific enough for me, like about this amount of grain or grain from this maltster or we mash at 158 but it takes us 2 hours to get it all up to a boil, stuff like that.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 29, 2013, 03:14:56 PM
I don't know of many breweries anywhere who would give a lot more detail than we have for this beer (if as much).  We have :        OG
                                 FG
                                 Mash Temp
                                 Hop Schedule
                                 Hop Varieties
                                 Yeast Strain
                                 90% 2 row
                                 10% C60

Clearly with a mash temp that high you would probably need to use some gypsum to dry the finish out a bit. I'm at a loss here.   :o

Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 29, 2013, 03:41:52 PM
I don't know of many breweries anywhere who would give a lot more detail than we have for this beer (if as much).  We have :        OG
                                 FG
                                 Mash Temp
                                 Hop Schedule
                                 Hop Varieties
                                 Yeast Strain
                                 90% 2 row
                                 10% C60

Clearly with a mash temp that high you would probably need to use some gypsum to dry the finish out a bit. I'm at a loss here.   :o
I'm not complaining about what info they did give, its great that they gave any, they didn't have to. Just here to discuss it. SN and everyone else have different processes, just trying to make the right adjustments.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 29, 2013, 03:54:27 PM
Those fine adjustments are such a crap shoot though.  Even if we had every aspect of their process, the jump from brewery to home, and system to system make it really tough. Personally I don't want a perfect clone. I like to get in the ballpark, but have something still my own unique beer. But we can all brew what we like, that's the fun !
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 29, 2013, 04:38:49 PM
I don't know of many breweries anywhere who would give a lot more detail than we have for this beer (if as much).  We have :        OG
                                 FG
                                 Mash Temp
                                 Hop Schedule
                                 Hop Varieties
                                 Yeast Strain
                                 90% 2 row
                                 10% C60

Clearly with a mash temp that high you would probably need to use some gypsum to dry the finish out a bit. I'm at a loss here.   :o
I'm not complaining about what info they did give, its great that they gave any, they didn't have to. Just here to discuss it. SN and everyone else have different processes, just trying to make the right adjustments.

As both Vinnie Chilurzo and Ken Grossman have said, you can have the same ingredients, but you don't have the equipment or process. You can make something like it, but not identical too it.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on November 29, 2013, 05:29:00 PM
I don't know of many breweries anywhere who would give a lot more detail than we have for this beer (if as much).  We have :        OG
                                 FG
                                 Mash Temp
                                 Hop Schedule
                                 Hop Varieties
                                 Yeast Strain
                                 90% 2 row
                                 10% C60

Clearly with a mash temp that high you would probably need to use some gypsum to dry the finish out a bit. I'm at a loss here.   :o
I'm not complaining about what info they did give, its great that they gave any, they didn't have to. Just here to discuss it. SN and everyone else have different processes, just trying to make the right adjustments.

As both Vinnie Chilurzo and Ken Grossman have said, you can have the same ingredients, but you don't have the equipment or process. You can make something like it, but not identical too it.
I understand this, which is why I was looking for more information on their process to adjust mine accordingly. the only reason I "try" to get it perfect is to learn more on making adjustments of process on my system (and its an awesome beer).
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 29, 2013, 05:58:46 PM
I don't know of many breweries anywhere who would give a lot more detail than we have for this beer (if as much).  We have :        OG
                                 FG
                                 Mash Temp
                                 Hop Schedule
                                 Hop Varieties
                                 Yeast Strain
                                 90% 2 row
                                 10% C60

Clearly with a mash temp that high you would probably need to use some gypsum to dry the finish out a bit. I'm at a loss here.   :o
I'm not complaining about what info they did give, its great that they gave any, they didn't have to. Just here to discuss it. SN and everyone else have different processes, just trying to make the right adjustments.

As both Vinnie Chilurzo and Ken Grossman have said, you can have the same ingredients, but you don't have the equipment or process. You can make something like it, but not identical too it.
I understand this, which is why I was looking for more information on their process to adjust mine accordingly. the only reason I "try" to get it perfect is to learn more on making adjustments of process on my system (and its an awesome beer).

OK, understand that you are looking for those last steps to get there. Those often are the hardest. It is a long journey sometimes. Good luck.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: klickitat jim on November 29, 2013, 06:07:15 PM
I've had zero success cloning anything, but on occasion something I brew tastes a lot like a commercial beer. Once I was trying for an IPA and it tasted a lot like Deschutes Mirror Pond. So I just told people it was my version of MP. Impressed! They just didn't know I fell way short of what I wad trying to make. I know this doesn't help the OP, but now I feel involved lol

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on November 29, 2013, 06:10:04 PM
At NHC in Orlando years back,  I was served no fewer than 10 versions of my Rye IPA made by different people.  Quite a few of them had gone to great lengths to make it as close to mine as they possibly could.  Not one of them tasted like mine.  The point is that brewing someone else's recipe and expecting it to be just like their beer may be an unreasonable expectation.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: klickitat jim on November 29, 2013, 07:04:57 PM
Besides, everyone knows that clones have no soul.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 01, 2013, 02:34:11 AM
At NHC in Orlando years back,  I was served no fewer than 10 versions of my Rye IPA made by different people.  Quite a few of them had gone to great lengths to make it as close to mine as they possibly could.  Not one of them tasted like mine.  The point is that brewing someone else's recipe and expecting it to be just like their beer may be an unreasonable expectation.

But, if it's your RIPA recipe it's still gonna be a good beer, unless the brewer really screws something up in the process...it is consistently the asked for beer from those who try mine!  I have even had several folks want to pay me to brew them a full batch - of course I don't do that, but that is one recipe that has always pleased my crew.  Clone or no, it's a crowd pleaser.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 02, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
I don't know of many breweries anywhere who would give a lot more detail than we have for this beer (if as much).  We have :        OG
                                 FG
                                 Mash Temp
                                 Hop Schedule
                                 Hop Varieties
                                 Yeast Strain
                                 90% 2 row
                                 10% C60

Clearly with a mash temp that high you would probably need to use some gypsum to dry the finish out a bit. I'm at a loss here.   :o
I'm not complaining about what info they did give, its great that they gave any, they didn't have to. Just here to discuss it. SN and everyone else have different processes, just trying to make the right adjustments.

As both Vinnie Chilurzo and Ken Grossman have said, you can have the same ingredients, but you don't have the equipment or process. You can make something like it, but not identical too it.
I understand this, which is why I was looking for more information on their process to adjust mine accordingly. the only reason I "try" to get it perfect is to learn more on making adjustments of process on my system (and its an awesome beer).

OK, understand that you are looking for those last steps to get there. Those often are the hardest. It is a long journey sometimes. Good luck.
thanks,  just got an email from SN with a homebrew recipe and some other info. Replied back for a little more info, so far I am impressed.  Will see how the second response goes

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 06, 2013, 07:46:43 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: AmandaK on December 06, 2013, 08:09:31 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

Care to share?

FWIW Nate, the beer you brewed from the original recipe is quite good. I'm very happy that I have another bottle of it in the fridge waiting for me when I get home.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on December 06, 2013, 08:21:25 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

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How can it be better?  FWIW, I kegged my latest version yesterday.  Started at 1.064, finished at 1.012.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 06, 2013, 08:21:37 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

Care to share?

FWIW Nate, the beer you brewed from the original recipe is quite good. I'm very happy that I have another bottle of it in the fridge waiting for me when I get home.
ok, now this is all on my direct fired rims system (it seems to make a difference on the amount of crystal malts) I find 95 percent us pale ale malt at 3L and 5 percent English c60 is a lot closer than 90/10 us 2 row / c60. Then adjust your mash temp to your system to hit 1.016. Mine is 154f.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 06, 2013, 08:26:25 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

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How can it be better?  FWIW, I kegged my latest version yesterday.  Started at 1.064, finished at 1.012.
well I get no toasted malt character using 2L 2 row and 10 percent Crystal is to much on my system (way to sweet) your results may very.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 06, 2013, 09:13:33 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

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How can it be better?  FWIW, I kegged my latest version yesterday.  Started at 1.064, finished at 1.012.
Denny, I would be interested to know if you get much of a toast flavor using 2L 2 row?

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on December 06, 2013, 09:38:41 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

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How can it be better?  FWIW, I kegged my latest version yesterday.  Started at 1.064, finished at 1.012.
Denny, I would be interested to know if you get much of a toast flavor using 2L 2 row?

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I can't really say about the toast flavor, but it tastes remarkably like Celebration.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 06, 2013, 09:50:10 PM
So I figered out a better recipe for celebration ale for the homebrew scale than the one given from SN.

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How can it be better?  FWIW, I kegged my latest version yesterday.  Started at 1.064, finished at 1.012.
Denny, I would be interested to know if you get much of a toast flavor using 2L 2 row?

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I can't really say about the toast flavor, but it tastes remarkably like Celebration.
I have made several versions using standard 2 row and thier similar, just did one with pale ale malt (just getting ready to dry hop) and it is a lot closer. Also feel the toastyness helps dry out the finish a lot. not saying thats how SN does it, but at the homebrew scale I find it to be a lot closer.

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on December 07, 2013, 06:47:49 PM
I have made several versions using standard 2 row and thier similar, just did one with pale ale malt (just getting ready to dry hop) and it is a lot closer. Also feel the toastyness helps dry out the finish a lot. not saying thats how SN does it, but at the homebrew scale I find it to be a lot closer.

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Tried mine again yesterday after posting and there's a definite toastiness to it.  I'll have to get some more Celebration to compare.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 07, 2013, 07:12:58 PM
I have made several versions using standard 2 row and thier similar, just did one with pale ale malt (just getting ready to dry hop) and it is a lot closer. Also feel the toastyness helps dry out the finish a lot. not saying thats how SN does it, but at the homebrew scale I find it to be a lot closer.

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Tried mine again yesterday after posting and there's a definite toastiness to it.  I'll have to get some more Celebration to compare.
Interesting, what maltsters did your grains come from?

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Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: denny on December 07, 2013, 09:34:13 PM
Interesting, what maltsters did your grains come from?

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Rahr 2 row pale, Briess organic 2 row C60.
Title: Re: Single malt and high mash temp
Post by: natebriscoe on December 07, 2013, 10:41:41 PM
Interesting, what maltsters did your grains come from?

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Rahr 2 row pale, Briess organic 2 row C60.
hmm, those are pretty neutral us malts. I use canada and Simpsons and get nothing but Carmel sweetness.

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