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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: klickitat jim on November 29, 2013, 08:08:58 PM

Title: To clone or not to clone
Post by: klickitat jim on November 29, 2013, 08:08:58 PM
Seems like a lot of discussion on cloning lately. With the start of the brew season upon us, I thought it might be fun to hear some opinions.

I'm mixed on this. I think one can poo poo cloning altogether, emphasizing personal creativity. And one can make the search for an identical copy their life goal. What anyone does in the privacy of their brewery is fine as far as I am concerned.

I personally think that trying a clone recipe is maybe a good idea for someone just getting started. It might be a way of having a benchmark to compare with so you know you are in the ball park. But as Denny has said, it may be futile to expect an identical copy.

What are your thoughts? Do clones have a place? Is "clone" a misleading term? If you could identically copy a commercial beer which one? Do clones have a soul?
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on November 29, 2013, 08:17:31 PM
I stopped using the word "clone" a long time ago because IMO you can never truly clone a beer, whether it's commercial or homebrew.  I started saying "homage" or "inspired by".  But I don't discount the benefit of trying to brew a beer like something else you like.  There's a lot of value in both the recipe design and the brewing process that can teach you a lot, whether you get close or not.  And you'll still likely end up with a delicious beer that's in the ballpark of what you're going for.  I'm looking forward to my Celebration "homage", even if I don't hit the exact gravities or hop profile of the original.  I know it'll still be great.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: erockrph on November 29, 2013, 08:28:18 PM
Personally, brewing a clone for clone's sake has no interest to me. One of the main reasons I homebrew is the whole creative side. If something is already available to me commercially then there's not a big reason for me to brew the same thing.

Having said that, if I taste something in a commercial beer that I like, then I would consider trying a clone. Say there's a porter that I really enjoy the roast quality of. By brewing something in the same ballpark I can figure out how to get that type of roast character in my brew. Now I "own" that and can add it to my toolkit for designing future brews. To me that's the real benefit of a clone, not so much to put 5 gallons of a beer I'd normally buy at the store on tap.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 29, 2013, 08:32:21 PM
+1.  Totally agree with Denny.  I can see the challenge for someone to want to duplicate something exactly (though as said, you can't) but I love the creativity of getting in the ballpark, with my own take on it. I just did an Arrogant Bastard-type beer, but chose to add in some Biscuit and Munich to what is believed to be the grist. Better or worse, it'll be mine.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: punatic on November 29, 2013, 08:41:08 PM
(http://www.abc.es/Media/201011/30/clones--478x270.jpg)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: tommymorris on November 29, 2013, 08:57:27 PM
I tried to clone one of my own recipes once with no success...
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Three on November 29, 2013, 09:00:01 PM
Define what your meaning of cloning is.  Is it coming up with a clone from scratch or brewing one that has been tried and true?

I am all about and do make beers that I call my own.  But I do enjoy some West Coast IPA from Green Flash and Stones Enjoy By is another favorite of mine.  There are some tried and true recipes and techniques that let you brew these.  So this "cloning" then gives me not only some truly awesome beers but also insight to how these brewers came up with them.  Are they the same?  I'm not sure.  They are pretty close.  I don't expect an exact copy though.  It's more like brewing in the style of these beers is what I'm after.  Then I try to incorporate (or not) what I learn from brewing them into my own beers.....

Every recipe is a clone unless you just made it up!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Three on November 29, 2013, 09:01:10 PM
Funny punatic!  Very funny.....
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: mugwort on November 29, 2013, 09:10:14 PM
I tried to clone one of my own recipes once with no success...

Very funny but so true!  Is it sour grapes when you decide later that you didn't want the same beer after all?
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: phunhog on November 29, 2013, 09:43:08 PM
I think there are a lot of similarities between music and brewing.  Personally I love it when a musician takes someone else's song and put's their own interpretation to it.  It's a cover but it can be sooooo much more!!  That's how I see "clones" and brewing.  The cover version can be better than the original.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: punatic on November 29, 2013, 09:46:26 PM
I tried to clone one of my own recipes once with no success...

Very funny but so true!  Is it sour grapes when you decide later that you didn't want the same beer after all?

Nope, that would be sour barley...  ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: gymrat on November 29, 2013, 09:52:34 PM
There's a brewing season?
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: speed on November 29, 2013, 09:58:11 PM
I like trying to clone a beer, if for nothing else to say I can make one as good as commercial beers. I have done big sky brewings moose drool and side by side with the commercial one our brew club couldn't tell the difference. And I know I'll catch flack for this one, but I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: gymrat on November 29, 2013, 10:26:30 PM
I like tasting a beer and seeing if I can identify the ingredients. Cloning is sort of a way to hone in that skill. A lot of brewery websites now will list their ingredients, just not the proportions, I think it is a good learning tool to try to figure out the proportions to come up with a beer that tastes really close. I believe when I become more in tune with the various malts and hops I have a better shot at knowing the end result of a recipe I am creating. Or how I can improve on a recipe I already have.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: riceral on November 29, 2013, 10:27:18 PM

I personally think that trying a clone recipe is maybe a good idea for someone just getting started. It might be a way of having a benchmark to compare with so you know you are in the ball park.


I tend to agree with this. For someone just starting or someone returning to brewing after a long period (like me), "clone" recipes gives me a good starting point to build around.

With more experience and knowing what each ingredient contributes you should be able to say, "I want a porter but I want more chocolate malt than this 'clone' call for." With an understanding of the malts and hops and with Pro Mash or Beersmith, you should eventually be able to build recipes that are your creation and for your tastes.

Like making bread or barbecue sauce, you add things you like and tweak it until it eventually becomes becomes yours.

Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: mugwort on November 29, 2013, 10:36:55 PM
Lotta good responses to some good questions.

I tend to avoid cloning not the least because I couldn't follow a recipe--even my own--if my life depended on it.  Each and every time I think I've made a recipe, come brewday it's open season.

Only beer I've tried to clone is Arrogant Bastard, half because it's delicious and half because the recipe is classified.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: tommymorris on November 30, 2013, 12:53:33 AM

I like trying to clone a beer, if for nothing else to say I can make one as good as commercial beers. I have done big sky brewings moose drool and side by side with the commercial one our brew club couldn't tell the difference. And I know I'll catch flack for this one, but I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Post that Schlitz recipe. Even Schlitz doesn't know the real original recipe so you really can't miss on that one!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: klickitat jim on November 30, 2013, 02:21:52 AM
(http://www.abc.es/Media/201011/30/clones--478x270.jpg)

Awesome!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: phunhog on November 30, 2013, 04:27:49 AM
The other part is that if you are brewing "classic styles" in many cases you are essentially brewing a clone of some commercial beer.   
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: speed on November 30, 2013, 04:38:15 AM

I like trying to clone a beer, if for nothing else to say I can make one as good as commercial beers. I have done big sky brewings moose drool and side by side with the commercial one our brew club couldn't tell the difference. And I know I'll catch flack for this one, but I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Post that Schlitz recipe. Even Schlitz doesn't know the real original recipe so you really can't miss on that one!
Here's what I got,
6 lb 6 row
4 lb 2 row
1 lb flaked maize
1/2 oz magnum, 1/4 oz cluster, 1/2 oz fuggle all at 15 minutes
90 minute mash
90 minute boil
2035 yeast
Mash at 148
Ferment at 50-55
You could probably cut back on the base grains to get the abv a little lower, mine came in at 6.5%
I did a step mash, 122  for 30 minutes and 1hour at 148
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: tommymorris on November 30, 2013, 04:56:11 AM


I like trying to clone a beer, if for nothing else to say I can make one as good as commercial beers. I have done big sky brewings moose drool and side by side with the commercial one our brew club couldn't tell the difference. And I know I'll catch flack for this one, but I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Post that Schlitz recipe. Even Schlitz doesn't know the real original recipe so you really can't miss on that one!
Here's what I got,
6 lb 6 row
4 lb 2 row
1 lb flaked maize
1/2 oz magnum, 1/4 oz cluster, 1/2 oz fuggle all at 15 minutes
90 minute mash
90 minute boil
2035 yeast
Mash at 148
Ferment at 50-55
You could probably cut back on the base grains to get the abv a little lower, mine came in at 6.5%
I did a step mash, 122  for 30 minutes and 1hour at 148

Thanks! 6.5% must be the pre-prohibition Schlitz ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: dmtaylor on November 30, 2013, 02:05:13 PM
I think true cloning of a beer is entirely possible.  The ingredients available to homebrewers are exactly the same as what the commercial brewers use.  A lot of commercial brewers freely give out their recipes.  So I figure it's worth a shot trying to duplicate my favorites.  I have brewed numerous clone recipes in the past, and while I never actually cloned one IMO, I always figured it was my own fault for not trying hard enough, as I rarely brew the same beer twice, always wanting to try something new.  However that's about to change, as I've set my heart on trying to clone two beers, Anchor Porter and Pete's Wicked Ale, which I'll be working on in the next few months.  Now of course they don't make Pete's anymore, so the "cloning" bit will have to be based on my taste memory.  But the Anchor, I will compare side-by-side with the real thing, brewing it at least twice if not 3 or 4 times, tweaking each time until it tastes exactly the same, if possible.  Even if I can't clone it, I think it will be fun to try and a great learning experience.

I do think an important part of the cloning process might be in aging your beer for several months.  When you brew your own, it is super fresh.  When you buy it at the store, it is probably already 4 months old or more (at least by the time it gets to the front of the shelves in Wisconsin).  So it's only fair to compare "old" homebrew to "brand new" store bought beer, otherwise you're not comparing apples to apples.  Then of course after you think you've cloned the beer, you'll need to decide whether you prefer to drink your clone young or aged, and this is largely subject to personal preference.  I guess what I'm also saying is, it's entirely possible to clone a beer and not have it taste exactly the same as what you buy on the shelf.  Your own homebrew might be a clone but taste even better than what you can buy, due either to freshness, or to slight tweaks that you have done with the recipe, or both.

All in theory.  I haven't cloned a beer... yet... but I do think it is an excellent learning experience, and the potential benefits are great, so I am going to try.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on November 30, 2013, 05:59:57 PM
(http://www.abc.es/Media/201011/30/clones--478x270.jpg)

Hello Dolly!  ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on November 30, 2013, 06:01:20 PM
I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Damn right!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on November 30, 2013, 06:04:07 PM
I do think an important part of the cloning process might be in aging your beer for several months.  When you brew your own, it is super fresh.  When you buy it at the store, it is probably already 4 months old or more (at least by the time it gets to the front of the shelves in Wisconsin).  So it's only fair to compare "old" homebrew to "brand new" store bought beer, otherwise you're not comparing apples to apples.  Then of course after you think you've cloned the beer, you'll need to decide whether you prefer to drink your clone young or aged, and this is largely subject to personal preference.  I guess what I'm also saying is, it's entirely possible to clone a beer and not have it taste exactly the same as what you buy on the shelf.  Your own homebrew might be a clone but taste even better than what you can buy, due either to freshness, or to slight tweaks that you have done with the recipe, or both.

I think that's gonna depend a lot on the particular commercial beer.  If I buy beer that's brewed by a local brewery, it's seldom more than a week or 2 old.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: dbeechum on November 30, 2013, 06:40:47 PM
I'm not a cloner since I tend to faff about with stories and taste ideas, but I get the drive behind the clone - there's something innately satisfying about hitting what you're aiming for.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: punatic on November 30, 2013, 06:44:36 PM
(http://www.abc.es/Media/201011/30/clones--478x270.jpg)

Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: yso191 on November 30, 2013, 06:46:04 PM
Words are funny things.  So many problems, misunderstandings and even fights come about through incorrect interpretations of what people think another means when using a specific word.  This is why in theology for example the first order of business is always to define terms.

If we don't have a clearly defined meaning of a word that is shared by all who are in the conversation what results is assumptions.  Oddly, human beings have a general tendency to assume negative motivations, states of mind, etc. in someone else, and to excuse or interpret their own actions, thoughts, conclusions much more generously.  In counseling of couples, in politics, et al, this is generally referred to as 'Negative Mind Reading.'

Why am I being so philosophical?  Because I think the real issue is what one thinks 'cloning' means will determine whether they clone or not; or think others should.

Is brewing classic styles cloning?  Is using a recipe from this website cloning?  Is using a kit cloning?  Is brewing a beer based on BJCP guidelines cloning?  One could argue that they all are or none are. 

Cloning for one person could be a general target, for another a highly rigorous, scientific process with double-blind processes and the like.

I for one don't care.  And I guess I'm also arguing for others not to care.  We are all beer brewers.  That is the goal.  If you brew beer and you enjoy it, you/we win.  I think it should matter not a whit to the home brewing community if one is motivated by making exact duplicates of something they love, or by making beers no one has ever had before. 

We will alienate a lot of people if we have a list of acceptable/unacceptable motivations for brewing.



Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on November 30, 2013, 07:04:53 PM
(http://www.abc.es/Media/201011/30/clones--478x270.jpg)

Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)

What are ewe talking about?  :)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: punatic on November 30, 2013, 08:00:27 PM
(http://www.abc.es/Media/201011/30/clones--478x270.jpg)

Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)

What are ewe talking about?  :)

 ::)  why do I baaa-ther?
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: speed on November 30, 2013, 09:20:43 PM
I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Damn right!
Thanks Denny. Denny was my Guiana pig. :D
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 30, 2013, 10:51:47 PM
(http://www.abc.es/Media/201011/30/clones--478x270.jpg)

Hello Dolly!  ;)

Hello Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly...

(Why aren't they called genetic echoes?)

What are ewe talking about?  :)

 ::)  why do I baaa-ther?

Can't pull the wool over MY eyes !   :D
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: punatic on December 01, 2013, 12:16:38 AM
I cloned Schlitz and it came awe fully close.

Damn right!
Thanks Denny. Denny was my Guiana pig. :D


Does it involve kool aid and sodium cyanide?   :o
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: klickitat jim on December 01, 2013, 03:50:18 AM
Words are funny things.  So many problems, misunderstandings and even fights come about through incorrect interpretations of what people think another means when using a specific word.  This is why in theology for example the first order of business is always to define terms.

If we don't have a clearly defined meaning of a word that is shared by all who are in the conversation what results is assumptions.  Oddly, human beings have a general tendency to assume negative motivations, states of mind, etc. in someone else, and to excuse or interpret their own actions, thoughts, conclusions much more generously.  In counseling of couples, in politics, et al, this is generally referred to as 'Negative Mind Reading.'

Why am I being so philosophical?  Because I think the real issue is what one thinks 'cloning' means will determine whether they clone or not; or think others should.

Is brewing classic styles cloning?  Is using a recipe from this website cloning?  Is using a kit cloning?  Is brewing a beer based on BJCP guidelines cloning?  One could argue that they all are or none are. 

Cloning for one person could be a general target, for another a highly rigorous, scientific process with double-blind processes and the like.

I for one don't care.  And I guess I'm also arguing for others not to care.  We are all beer brewers.  That is the goal.  If you brew beer and you enjoy it, you/we win.  I think it should matter not a whit to the home brewing community if one is motivated by making exact duplicates of something they love, or by making beers no one has ever had before. 

We will alienate a lot of people if we have a list of acceptable/unacceptable motivations for brewing.

Its probably really hard to literally clone beer (genetically identical to parent), so I'm guessing that it means identical tasting, appearance, aroma.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: punatic on December 01, 2013, 05:38:44 AM
I've always found the concept of brewing a "clone" amusing.  I don't know who decided to apply that word to brewing, but it is far from appropriate. 

Asking for a recipe that brews a beer similar to "X" is more accurate. 

When I was less experienced I used recipes as a starting point and went from there, both in brewing and cooking. Now I taste beer or food and choose the ingredients that I think are going to produce the flavor results that I want.  It's very seldom I use recipes anymore. Ingredients vary in flavor quite a lot over time. Most of the time now I choose ingredients based on what I'm trying to create, like painting from a palate of flavors, instead of colors. I learned this from cooking, and apply it to brewing too.  My wife and Chef M taught me how.

Why would I want to brew a clone when I can buy the original?  When I brew, I want to brew something original - something to style, but with my signature on it.

For instance, probably the best beer I brew, and a style I really enjoy drinking is Münchner Helles.  However, I really like the flavor of Hallertauer Hersbrucker hops.  My helles is over-hopped for flavor and aroma for someone used to the Bavarian style, but I don't brew for Bavarians, I brew for me.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: yso191 on December 01, 2013, 04:02:23 PM

Its probably really hard to literally clone beer (genetically identical to parent), so I'm guessing that it means identical tasting, appearance, aroma.

Somewhere between really hard and impossible.

But I have such a poor palate, if it is in the neighborhood I couldn't tell the difference.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: jeffy on December 01, 2013, 04:07:00 PM
I'm with all you guys.  "Clone" is the wrong word, but it sold a lot of books.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: chezteth on December 01, 2013, 05:39:37 PM
As with plenty of other homebrewers I have used clone recipes. I think they provide a good starting point. It allows you to know what the beer should taste like when it is finished. However, I agree that making the clone beer taste exactly like the original is difficult. It is possible for a homebrewer to be disappointed in the beer if it doesn't turn out as expected.  Sometimes I like to use clone or other recipes as a starting point then modify for my purposes. If there is a commercial beer I like I prefer to buy it. I like to reserve homebrewing for my own recipes.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Three on December 01, 2013, 10:21:14 PM
I will be repeating myself here but......  Everything you brew using and following a recipe is a clone.  It never turns out the same.  It turns out as a reasonable facsimile (clone).  Maybe brewing in a lab and having precise control of everything you could "copy" a brew.  Hops get older or are a different crop. Grains change with age and or you use new crops. Then there is the water.  Yeast cell counts in starters?  I could go on but I think that gets the thought out.  The only time it's not cloning is if you just decide to make something up and brew it for the first time.

It's the same for cooking.  Baking is more precise but still has factors that are clone-ish like temperature, humidity, etc.......

Now, if your cloning sheep like punatic.  I believe that is a different definition of "clone".

Okay, Now I want to apologize for the rant.  I had to get that out of my head.  Lets brew!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: punatic on December 01, 2013, 10:36:49 PM
Never cloned any sheep, but I did find some rubber boots on sale on Black Friday!   ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Three on December 02, 2013, 01:16:21 AM
Never cloned any sheep, but I did find some rubber boots on sale on Black Friday!   ;)

Now we're talkin'!!! :)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: klickitat jim on December 02, 2013, 02:03:01 AM
I don't think it's a clone unless it says clone. The rest just think they are clones. Psy clones
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: gmac on December 02, 2013, 02:37:19 AM
Never cloned any sheep, but I did find some rubber boots on sale on Black Friday!   ;)

Pushing sheep through the fence are we?  You really need those gloves with the velcro palms for the best grip....
Personally, I'm with Denny (as usual).  I've tried to clone a few local beers and I've never come super close but they have provided the inspiration for some very good beers.  Some of them, I now like much better than the original to be honest.
I can't really say that I've ever even followed my own recipes 100% accurately so I doubt I'll ever really follow a clone recipe 100% accurately.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Three on December 02, 2013, 04:45:02 AM
I don't think it's a clone unless it says clone. The rest just think they are clones. Psy clones

Psyclone.......

(http://i42.tinypic.com/sc6m1x.jpg)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 02, 2013, 03:29:17 PM
As others have said, I think the attempt at cloning can be a good learning experience when you're starting out.  It can help you identify what particular ingredients lend to a beer. 

I prefer to approach it as benchmarking, though.  I've never really tried to make an exact replica, but I do try to make beers that are similar to ones I've enjoyed.  If the color comes out darker, or the beer is hoppier, or otherwise different, it helps to have that benchmark to fine tune recipes for the next go round.

As far as cloning your own beer, I recently did a side by side tasting of two different years of my strong stout.  Surprisingly, it tasted like two glasses of the same beer even despite the age difference.  So I suppose over the years I've managed to fine tune that one.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: el_capitan on December 07, 2013, 02:41:41 AM
I've brewed a lot of clone recipes, but I really don't get hung up on whether or not they're exact copies.  In fact, I rarely even do side-by-side tastings with the commercial versions.  For me, the attraction is finding a recipe that will get me close to a beer that I'm familiar with and that I really enjoy. 

I've brewed just over 100 batches and I'm just now homing in on a good set of house recipes.  FWIW, none of the beers in my standard lineup are clone beers.  Now that I've identified some recipes that I really like, I know what to expect when I'm making the beer.  Since I'm the one person who drinks most of the beer I brew, I like to be fairly certain that it's something I'll enjoy. 

As I've learned more about recipe formulation and brewing techniques, I've strayed from clone recipes and sought out more traditional recipes.  I've been exploring the recipes in BCS, which are great because the nuances of the style are described pretty well, and the provided recipes are pretty much guaranteed to produce a good representation of the style.  I look at Jamil's recipes as a starting point - I brew them as written and then start to think about tweaks to make them suit my tastes. 

I think my current favorite beer (and one that's always popular with just about anybody) is Waldo Lake Amber.  Thanks, Denny!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on December 07, 2013, 06:45:56 PM
I hope this isn't seen as advertising, but for those of you who want to brew recipes from breweries ("clones" or not), there's a new book coming out in Jan.


http://www.qbookshop.com/products/211160/9780760344743/Craft-Beer-for-the-Homebrewer.html

Here are the recipes....

CHAPTER 1: Pale Ales & IPAs.................................................12
8-Bit, Tallgrass Brewing Company................................................14
Capt’n Crompton’s Pale Ale, Epic Brewing....................................18
Elevated IPA, La Cumbre Brewing Company.................................20
Furious, Surly Brewing Company.................................................24
Hop Stoopid, Lagunitas Brewing Company...................................26
Maharaja, Avery Brewing Company..............................................30
Spiral Jetty, Epic Brewing ..........................................................34
Thrust!, Red Eye Brewing Company.............................................38
Watershed IPA, Oakshire Brewing................................................40
CHAPTER 2: Porter s & Stouts..............................................44
Buffalo Sweat, Tallgrass Brewing Company...................................46
Malpais Stout, La Cumbre Brewing Company................................48
Smoke, Surly Brewing Company..................................................50
Snowstorm 2009 Baltic Porter, August Schell Brewing Company....54
CHAPTER 3: Wheat & Rye Beers.............................................58
Bittersweet Lenny’s R.I.P.A., Shmaltz Brewing..............................60
Little Sumpin’ Sumpin’ Ale, Lagunitas Brewing Company..............64
Rugbrød, The Bruery..................................................................66
Wiley’s Rye Ale, Stone Cellar Brewpub.........................................70
CHAPTER 4: Belgians.............................................................74
Allagash Black, Allagash Brewing Company..................................76
Allagash Curieux, Allagash Brewing Company...............................80
Matacabras, Dave’s BrewFarm.....................................................82
Funkwerks Saison, Funkwerks.....................................................84
Salvation, Avery Brewing Company..............................................88
Scarlet 7, Red Eye Brewing Company..........................................90
Saison Rue, The Bruery..............................................................94
CHAPTER 5: Other Ales..........................................................96
90 Shilling Ale, Odell Brewing Company......................................98
Dead Guy Ale, Rogue Ales..........................................................102
El Lector, Cigar City Brewing.......................................................106
Hazelnut Brown Nectar, Rogue Ales.............................................110
Hellion, TRVE Brewing...............................................................112
Ill-Tempered Gnome, Oakshire Brewing........................................116
Imperial Red Ale, Marble Brewery................................................118
Kölsch 151, Blue Mountain Brewery............................................122
Levitation, Stone Brewing Company.............................................126
Nugget Nectar, Tröegs Brewing Company......................................130
Xenu, Cigar City Brewing............................................................134
CHAPTER 6: Lagers.................................................................136
Select, Dave’s BrewFarm............................................................138
Coney Island Mermaid Pilsner, Shmaltz Brewing...........................142
Schell’s Pils, August Schell Brewing Company..............................144

Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: kgs on December 07, 2013, 06:58:11 PM
Awesome! Pre-ordered it!

Most cooking is cloning. From what I've seen, some people enjoy figuring out how to replicate a beer (or any other foodstuff) when the recipe is unknown; some enjoy the replication itself (being able to mirror a recipe when the ingredients and process are known); some enjoy tweaking it to be their own. Some enjoy all of it. I think I am mostly #2.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Three on December 07, 2013, 08:05:53 PM
I hope this isn't seen as advertising, but for those of you who want to brew recipes from breweries ("clones" or not), there's a new book coming out in Jan.


http://www.qbookshop.com/products/211160/9780760344743/Craft-Beer-for-the-Homebrewer.html


Very nice!  I've pre-ordered it Denny!  I look forward to "cloning around" with the(your) recipes!!!!


Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: yso191 on December 07, 2013, 08:36:37 PM
I love it.  I intend to make one 'Inspired by" Avery's Salvation!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on December 07, 2013, 09:31:25 PM
There are some really nice looking recipes in there.  I recommend you check out the Watershed IPA and Ill tempered Gnome from Oakshire.  You've probably never heard of them or tried their beers, but they do some great stuff!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: erockrph on December 07, 2013, 10:00:19 PM
Where do the recipes come from? Have these been provided by the breweries themselves? Other "clone brew" recipe books out there haven't been even close on a lot of their recipes.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 07, 2013, 10:30:18 PM
I'm sure I must have bought one of the original "clone" books way back in the day.  I'd only brewed a few batches and remembered thinking I'd struck gold with that book. I think I brewed the alleged Guinness clone
(and brewed it to the letter) and ended up with something cloyingly sweet, sweeter than a milk stout, that finished at ~ 1.020 IIRC. Not exactly accurate !   ;D
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: BrewingRover on December 08, 2013, 12:15:07 AM
There are some really nice looking recipes in there.  I recommend you check out the Watershed IPA and Ill tempered Gnome from Oakshire.  You've probably never heard of them or tried their beers, but they do some great stuff!
Thanks for posting the list, I was going to ask on the NB Forum

I knew Matt at Oakshire when he was at Flossmoor Station and was happy I was able to find some of his beers in Seattle last winter. I look forward to seeing his recipes.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: theDarkSide on December 08, 2013, 01:34:26 AM
I hope this isn't seen as advertising, but for those of you who want to brew recipes from breweries ("clones" or not), there's a new book coming out in Jan.

Denny...you (http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1538/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1538R-49367.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: klickitat jim on December 08, 2013, 02:17:16 AM
? Swashbuckler?
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 08, 2013, 04:00:33 PM
I hope this isn't seen as advertising, but for those of you who want to brew recipes from breweries ("clones" or not), there's a new book coming out in Jan.


http://www.qbookshop.com/products/211160/9780760344743/Craft-Beer-for-the-Homebrewer.html

Here are the recipes....

CHAPTER 1: Pale Ales & IPAs.................................................12
8-Bit, Tallgrass Brewing Company................................................14
Capt’n Crompton’s Pale Ale, Epic Brewing....................................18
Elevated IPA, La Cumbre Brewing Company.................................20
Furious, Surly Brewing Company.................................................24
Hop Stoopid, Lagunitas Brewing Company...................................26
Maharaja, Avery Brewing Company..............................................30
Spiral Jetty, Epic Brewing ..........................................................34
Thrust!, Red Eye Brewing Company.............................................38
Watershed IPA, Oakshire Brewing................................................40
CHAPTER 2: Porter s & Stouts..............................................44
Buffalo Sweat, Tallgrass Brewing Company...................................46
Malpais Stout, La Cumbre Brewing Company................................48
Smoke, Surly Brewing Company..................................................50
Snowstorm 2009 Baltic Porter, August Schell Brewing Company....54
CHAPTER 3: Wheat & Rye Beers.............................................58
Bittersweet Lenny’s R.I.P.A., Shmaltz Brewing..............................60
Little Sumpin’ Sumpin’ Ale, Lagunitas Brewing Company..............64
Rugbrød, The Bruery..................................................................66
Wiley’s Rye Ale, Stone Cellar Brewpub.........................................70
CHAPTER 4: Belgians.............................................................74
Allagash Black, Allagash Brewing Company..................................76
Allagash Curieux, Allagash Brewing Company...............................80
Matacabras, Dave’s BrewFarm.....................................................82
Funkwerks Saison, Funkwerks.....................................................84
Salvation, Avery Brewing Company..............................................88
Scarlet 7, Red Eye Brewing Company..........................................90
Saison Rue, The Bruery..............................................................94
CHAPTER 5: Other Ales..........................................................96
90 Shilling Ale, Odell Brewing Company......................................98
Dead Guy Ale, Rogue Ales..........................................................102
El Lector, Cigar City Brewing.......................................................106
Hazelnut Brown Nectar, Rogue Ales.............................................110
Hellion, TRVE Brewing...............................................................112
Ill-Tempered Gnome, Oakshire Brewing........................................116
Imperial Red Ale, Marble Brewery................................................118
Kölsch 151, Blue Mountain Brewery............................................122
Levitation, Stone Brewing Company.............................................126
Nugget Nectar, Tröegs Brewing Company......................................130
Xenu, Cigar City Brewing............................................................134
CHAPTER 6: Lagers.................................................................136
Select, Dave’s BrewFarm............................................................138
Coney Island Mermaid Pilsner, Shmaltz Brewing...........................142
Schell’s Pils, August Schell Brewing Company..............................144

I like that there are some recipes for La Cumbra and Marble in there. Those were fine beers we had a year back in NM.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on December 08, 2013, 06:04:51 PM
Where do the recipes come from? Have these been provided by the breweries themselves? Other "clone brew" recipe books out there haven't been even close on a lot of their recipes.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

They come right from the brewmasters at the breweries.  Then each of us scaled the recipe to homebrew size, and it was double checked by another person.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: spikbeatz on May 04, 2014, 07:18:40 PM
Denny. I picked up the kindle version of this book 2 weeks ago and LOVED they include La Cumbre's Malpais Stout. I had the pleasure of having the real thing this past friday and it was flat out awesome. A rich, thick, roasted, slight chocolate, easy drinking stout.

I will be brewing that recipe in the fall. I live in southern NM and only get their Hefenweizen and Elevated IPA which, in my opinion, is the best IPA in the state of NM. Period. I also moving to Germany(USAF member) in July so I'll be a little out of reach for their distribution ;) so needless to say, Elevated and Malpais will be getting brewed A LOT in Germany.

If folks haven't picked this up, you all should. It's a great book and a great read. The insight on the breweries is a great touch. Some of the info, I didn't know.

Cheers all!

Boris
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on May 04, 2014, 07:41:35 PM
Glad you're enjoying it, Boris.  every time I pick it up, it seems like I change my mind on what to brew next.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: spikbeatz on May 04, 2014, 07:43:51 PM
Lol. I hear that.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: gymrat on May 05, 2014, 01:14:00 AM
I recently did a clone of Breckenridge Avalanche Ale. We were doing a house warming party for a guy and that is his favorite beer. I got the ingredients from the website and got fairly close for a keg to serve at his party.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: jestersbrewworks on May 06, 2014, 03:07:14 PM
Why imitate when you can innovate?
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on May 06, 2014, 03:09:32 PM
Why imitate when you can innovate?

Because sometimes you want a beer that tastes like something that's already been done.  Because sometimes you want to test your skill by seeing if you can hit a target.  Then, you can take what you've learned and try something new.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: jrmontecarlo on May 06, 2014, 03:19:13 PM
One of the main reasons I enjoy brewing is the challenge of making a good quality beer.  I don't care if my friends or neighbors don't drink it cause it is dark.  I don't see the point of trying to re-create the wheel.  The only time I will look for a clone recipe is to see what was making a specific flavor.  We are all better off with home brewers being different that is how we have so many new and tasty beers.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: yso191 on May 06, 2014, 03:26:48 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on May 06, 2014, 03:28:05 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.

+1.060, Steve.  Everyone has their own reason and way to brew.  No need to judge them or feel superior about your own reasons.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Jimmy K on May 06, 2014, 03:28:58 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.
+1
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 06, 2014, 03:35:50 PM
+1.  There's value in both approaches to me. Creativity and pushing the envelope in doing something different and unique that doesn't follow style guidelines is pretty fun, on occasion. But the challenge of brewing to style or of loosely recreating a favorite beer is a great way to develop brewing skills. I don't judge somebody for their approach - you have to brew what you like !
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: cswest on May 06, 2014, 03:46:06 PM
I do a couple cloned batches a year, often from the same brewery.  I feel like I gain a lot of insight on a brewery's process and how they put a recipe together. Plus it helps me dial in my system because without their exact equipment changes will be necessary.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: ncbluesman on May 06, 2014, 03:52:50 PM
To each, his own.

For me, I'm in a phase where I love to try to reproduce certain beers.  I've done several beers from CYBI podcasts and have been very impressed with the results. Living on the East Coast, I'm not able to buy some of the west coast beers I've enjoyed, such as: Deschutes Mirror Pond & Black Butte Porter or Firestone Walker's Union Jack & Pale 31, Pizza Port's Shark Bite Red. It allows me to focus on my process, remove variation and improve repeatability while producing delicious beer from proven recipes.

Maybe when I'm done having fun with other people's recipes, I'll focus on the creativity of recipe formulation. Then again, maybe not.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: beersk on May 06, 2014, 04:27:29 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.

+1.060, Steve.  Everyone has their own reason and way to brew.  No need to judge them or feel superior about your own reasons.
For instance, I prefer to brew beers with starting gravities under 1.060 ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: udubdawg on May 06, 2014, 04:31:44 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.

+1.060, Steve.  Everyone has their own reason and way to brew.  No need to judge them or feel superior about your own reasons.
For instance, I prefer to brew beers with starting gravities under 1.060 ;)

+1.047
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: denny on May 06, 2014, 04:54:11 PM
For instance, I prefer to brew beers with starting gravities under 1.060 ;)

Actually, these days I do that more often than not.  Yeah, I just blew my image, huh?  ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: beersk on May 06, 2014, 05:08:37 PM
D'oh! You blew your cover, man!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Jimmy K on May 06, 2014, 05:09:26 PM
For instance, I prefer to brew beers with starting gravities under 1.060 ;)

Actually, these days I do that more often than not.  Yeah, I just blew my image, huh?  ;)

IT'S LIKE I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU!!
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: erockrph on May 06, 2014, 05:13:45 PM
Why imitate when you can innovate?

A) You have to start somewhere
B) The challenge
C) You can learn a lot about how to design recipes by brewing proven ones yourself
D) You really like the beer
E) You enjoy one (or many) of the dozens of other parts of our hobby aside from the recipe design process

Why roll the dice on 5 gallons of a brew that might be horrible when you can brew a tried and tested recipe?

Frankly, there's no difference between brewing a clone vs brewing a kit vs brewing someone else's recipe. Unless you're designing every single one of your recipes entirely from scratch, then it's all the same. And even then, if you're brewing a particular style, you're not really innovating anything anyways.

Brew what you like.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: tschmidlin on May 07, 2014, 04:33:31 AM
Some people enjoy crafting recipes and tasting the results, others simply enjoy the process of making beer.  Some people are really into the equipment, automation, shiny stainless, and some people have been using the same old cooler for 10+ years.  Some want to brew every style, some like to enter competitions, some like to brew one kind of beer over and over, some share, some hoard, we all have our reasons.  Make what you want, drink what you like.

On a side note, I once knew a girl who was an excellent cook as long as she was following a recipe, but she could not look in her pantry and whip up something edible.  For some people that takes knowledge and experience, others just don't think that way and can never get there.  She still liked to cook though.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: garc_mall on May 07, 2014, 05:36:33 AM
On a side note, I once knew a girl who was an excellent cook as long as she was following a recipe, but she could not look in her pantry and whip up something edible.  For some people that takes knowledge and experience, others just don't think that way and can never get there.  She still liked to cook though.

I am the opposite. I don't think I could follow a recipe if I tried. I like to do my own thing.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: tschmidlin on May 07, 2014, 06:22:27 AM
On a side note, I once knew a girl who was an excellent cook as long as she was following a recipe, but she could not look in her pantry and whip up something edible.  For some people that takes knowledge and experience, others just don't think that way and can never get there.  She still liked to cook though.

I am the opposite. I don't think I could follow a recipe if I tried. I like to do my own thing.
Remind me to never let you make any lab media. :)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: klickitat jim on May 07, 2014, 01:35:06 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.

This post has been moved to the appropriate thread :D
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: garc_mall on May 07, 2014, 04:30:35 PM
On a side note, I once knew a girl who was an excellent cook as long as she was following a recipe, but she could not look in her pantry and whip up something edible.  For some people that takes knowledge and experience, others just don't think that way and can never get there.  She still liked to cook though.

I am the opposite. I don't think I could follow a recipe if I tried. I like to do my own thing.
Remind me to never let you make any lab media. :)
Don't worry, I will.  ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: yso191 on May 07, 2014, 04:45:07 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.

This post has been moved to the appropriate thread :D

Jim!  Get your mind out of the gutter.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: pete b on May 08, 2014, 01:41:10 AM
i'm actually doing my first clone (since my first kit) soon. I'm doing it as a learning experience to practice harvesting yeast and because I have sentimental reasons to make a certain beer. I've spent most of my adult life in the cooking profession and am not a recipe person. When I'm trying out something I have never done or am trying to perfect something that's not quite satisfactory I use recipes as a resource to check out proportions or to see where other people are going and riff on it. I kind of won my girlfriend over when I was at her house and she said she had nothing to eat. I looked around, found tomatoes, eggs, flour, and cheese and made ravioli in under an hour without looking at a recipe. The only recipes I really use verbatim are for a couple things like a perfect pizza dough and flour tortillas, but from there there is plenty of creativity in making that pizza or fish tacos. My point is that I wouldn't homebrew for long making just clones but there's nothing inherently wrong in following the occasional recipe if it can help you grow as a brewer, or just make a beer you like for less money
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: Steve L on May 08, 2014, 10:08:47 AM
I guess in my mind, trying to brew a clone or "in the style of"... for me is an exercise in learning my ingredients. Manipulating  a recipe based on taste alone to reproduce a commercial brew seems to me a like great palate training. Mostly I'm for brewing to style but even with that... 10 beers in the same style by 10 different brewers are gonna all taste different so why bother brewing anything that tastes like anything other than what you like. :D

... by the way... I think I've nailed my Legend Brown Ale clone! ;)
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: leejoreilly on May 08, 2014, 01:18:08 PM
I guess in my mind, trying to brew a clone or "in the style of"... for me is an exercise in learning my ingredients.

I agree. I tend to use a recipe (or a group of similar recipes) as a jumping off point and then adjust version 2.0 to my taste. A couple of moths ago I decided I wanted an IPA similar to Bell's Two Hearted. I started by finding a few "clone" recipes, all similar but with subtle differences, and sort of "averaging" them for my first pass. It was good, but didn't have quite the malt balance to the hop bitterness that I so enjoy in the Bell's. So I toyed with the grain bill and mash temp, and V2.0 is now my house IPA. Clone it, then personalize it.
Title: Re: To clone or not to clone
Post by: klickitat jim on May 08, 2014, 01:32:02 PM
I think we are better off letting people do what they want to do.

This post has been moved to the appropriate thread :D

Jim!  Get your mind out of the gutter.

No. And I meant that it was worthy of the quotation thread