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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: mpietropaoli on December 13, 2013, 02:32:51 AM

Title: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: mpietropaoli on December 13, 2013, 02:32:51 AM
I am a relatively new BJCP judge, and have judged about a half dozen competitions.  I have had a few instances where I have perceived DMS when the other judges haven't. 

We recently carbed up 3 versions of a 1.080 or so RIS (naked, oak-aged, bourbon oak aged) and I perceive DMS in all of them, particularly when its served on the cold side.  Once its warmed a bit, I get an amazing symphony of bready malt, baker's chocolate, light roast, warming, and some hop flavor. 

I honestly have no idea how this beer could have had DMS.  100 minute boil, in-line therminator, cold pitched US-05, fermented at 66, temp raised to 68 after a week, then 70 for the remainder.  We used magnum to bitter to about 40 IBU, then got the remaining IBU's (total of 80, calculated) from Green Bullet hops, which I'm told are somewhat like Fuggles or EKG, especially when used late.  I am confident in our cleanliness, hot and cold-side processes.  We ferment in a 1/2 bbl stainless steel conical, in a dual-stage temp controlled fridge. 

Any feedback or similar experiences would be appreciated!
Title: Re: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 13, 2013, 02:50:32 AM
I'm no beer judge, but were the hops possibly old and a bit stale?  I have had Magnum give a noticeable vegetal flavor in light lagers when they were stored a bit too long.
Title: Re: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: tommymorris on December 13, 2013, 03:05:44 AM
You say recently carbed. Are you sure you are not tasting yeast? I always taste yeast in my recently carbed beers. Yeast tastes more like a vitamin than corn. But when mixed with many other flavors it can get confusing. I know I have confused yeast, DMS, and Diacetyl.

PS. I am not a BJCP judge.

Title: Re: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: dmtaylor on December 13, 2013, 04:30:08 AM
You are likely mistaking something else for DMS.  Perhaps it is just a very fresh grainy flavor.  If so it likely mellows with age.  DMS tastes distinctly like corn, cabbage, celery or broccoli.  It should be pretty obvious to good judges if it is there, although some people are hypersensitive and some not at all.  If no one else can taste it though then my guess is you might be mistaking it for something else.
Title: Re: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: udubdawg on December 13, 2013, 02:01:44 PM
I've got a pretty good palate/nose, but I think it would take a ton of DMS for me to detect it in a big stout.

Someone (else) should open a bottle of Rasputin and start adding Rolling Rock until they notice it and report back.   ;D

seriously though, it seems like this has to be something else.
Title: Re: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 05:23:28 PM
You are likely mistaking something else for DMS.  Perhaps it is just a very fresh grainy flavor.  If so it likely mellows with age.  DMS tastes distinctly like corn, cabbage, celery or broccoli.  It should be pretty obvious to good judges if it is there, although some people are hypersensitive and some not at all.  If no one else can taste it though then my guess is you might be mistaking it for something else.

I agree with Dave here.
Title: Re: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: erockrph on December 13, 2013, 05:31:46 PM
I'll go with either fresh grains or oxidated hops maybe. In something like a RIS oxidation may not be clearly detectable as wet paper, but that flavor may combine with some of the other complexities to give the impression of something like cabbage.

As far as the fresh grains thing goes, any chance this was underattenuated? Sometimes I get a cooked broth flavor from wort that could be mistaken for DMS I suppose. Just grasping at straws here, though.

My suggestion would be to sit down side-by-side with another person (or people) whose palate you trust and talk through exactly what nuances you're picking up in as descriptive a manner as possible. I.e., not "I get some DMS", but "I'm picking up a cooked cabbage note right in the middle of the palate after the initial sweetness starts to fade" or something to that effect. Maybe they can get a better sense of what you're picking up and can help you pinpoint exactly what it is. Try to find a woman, as their palates are more sensitive than men in general.

And it could just be that you are hyper-sensitive to DMS. As the beers warm up the other flavors increase to the point where they far surpass the miniscule amounts of DMS you may be getting.
Title: Re: BJCP / Sensory Question - DMS = noble hops?
Post by: mpietropaoli on December 20, 2013, 09:06:33 PM
Great, thanks forth replies all.  Honestly, I only really perceive it when it's first poured. Then as it warms and degasses a bit,this beer is a dream.  Probably need to do some live tasting with some good fellow judges to see what I'm perceiving...