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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 08:32:44 AM

Title: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 08:32:44 AM
Sorry, but this has been building up...... :o

I've been seeing a lot of posts about using CaraPils in IPAs for head retention.  Almost every time there is at least 5% crystal and a ton of hops in the recipe.  So, not that I'm a brewmaster, but I need to set the record a little straighter on CaraPils.

CaraPils is a lightly kilned pilsner malt, meaning it is a crystal malt!  It is not some miracle grain that adds head retention to beer because it is used.  It's primary purpose is to add head retention to light lagers that are not highly hopped as it is so lightly kilned that it does not add any additional flavor.  That's about it!

If you are making an IPA, with crystal malt and a ton of hops, there is no reason to add CaraPils.  It is redundant and does nothing for the beer.  All crystal malts contain dextrins that are unfermentable and add body and head retention because of the kilning process.  If you already have hops and crystal malts in the recipe contributing to the head retention qualities, CaraPils is not needed.  It's a non-factor and contributes nothing......

OK, got that off my chest.  I feel better and hope I did not offend anyone.... 

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: slarkin712 on December 13, 2013, 08:44:50 AM
I feel better too.  I see carapils in nearly every IPA recipe, so I second guess my self whether or not I should be using it in my recipes as well.  No more carapils in IPAs!  I even see it in IPA recipes from professional brewers.  They use carapils and sugar(dextrose) in the same recipe.  What is the point?  Actually, now I'm getting angry again and typing very hard on the keyboard.  If you want to use carapils to add body I can understand, but why not just mash at a higher temperature?  And then leave the sugar out.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 08:49:16 AM
I feel better too.  I see carapils in nearly every IPA recipe, so I second guess my self whether or not I should be using it in my recipes as well.  No more carapils in IPAs!  I even see it in IPA recipes from professional brewers.  They use carapils and sugar(dextrose) in the same recipe.  What is the point?  Actually, now I'm getting angry again and typing very hard on the keyboard.  If you want to use carapils to add body I can understand, but why not just mash at a higher temperature?  And then leave the sugar out.

Maybe a pro has a different reason for adding CP to a recipe.  I don't know.  But I just couldn't see another recipe with it in there next to 10% crystal 40 and 6oz of hops for the specific reason of head retention......

I'm with you on the raising the mash temp comment.

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: singletrack brewer on December 13, 2013, 08:58:56 AM
Good timing on this topic as I am thinking about Carapils in an IPA but with no other crystal malts.  I'm thinking Crisp Pale 2 for the base and Goldpils Vienna for a color/flavor boost.  The idea was to use some Carapils for head retention here but now I'm thinking about skipping it. Anyway, good topic.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 13, 2013, 09:14:46 AM
Sorry, but this has been building up...... :o

I've been seeing a lot of posts about using CaraPils in IPAs for head retention.  Almost every time there is at least 5% crystal and a ton of hops in the recipe.  So, not that I'm a brewmaster, but I need to set the record a little straighter on CaraPils.

CaraPils is a lightly kilned pilsner malt, meaning it is a crystal malt!  It is not some miracle grain that adds head retention to beer because it is used.  It's primary purpose is to add head retention to light lagers that are not highly hopped as it is so lightly kilned that it does not add any additional flavor.  That's about it!

If you are making an IPA, with crystal malt and a ton of hops, there is no reason to add CaraPils.  It is redundant and does nothing for the beer.  All crystal malts contain dextrins that are unfermentable and add body and head retention because of the kilning process.  If you already have hops and crystal malts in the recipe contributing to the head retention qualities, CaraPils is not needed.  It's a non-factor and contributes nothing......

OK, got that off my chest.  I feel better and hope I did not offend anyone.... 

Dave

I totally agree, it is redundant. I've been brewing for a long time - long enough to remember when every recipe had carapils, every Scottish recipe had peated malt, and every beer got a secondary no matter what.  Things have come a long way.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: tcanova on December 13, 2013, 09:25:45 AM


I totally agree, it is redundant. I've been brewing for a long time - long enough to remember when every recipe had carapils, every Scottish recipe had peated malt, and every beer got a secondary no matter what.  Things have come a long way.
[/quote]

And we only had dry yeast and Coopers in a can... ;)

Thad being said, how do you feel about adding wheat malt for head retention?  Probably not necessary but I've been doing it for years...
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: Jimmy K on December 13, 2013, 09:26:56 AM
We need a homebrewing achievement badge for writing a rant about an ingredient.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: cornershot on December 13, 2013, 09:32:09 AM
Good timing on this topic as I am thinking about Carapils in an IPA but with no other crystal malts.  I'm thinking Crisp Pale 2 for the base and Goldpils Vienna for a color/flavor boost.  The idea was to use some Carapils for head retention here but now I'm thinking about skipping it. Anyway, good topic.
I love gildpils vienna for color and flavor.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: fmader on December 13, 2013, 09:43:15 AM
I'm thinking that the craze for carapils in IPA's stemmed from the Pliny recipe. Anyways, I used it for a minute based upon that recipe.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 13, 2013, 09:44:14 AM
We need a homebrewing achievement badge for writing a rant about an ingredient.

:D     That's funny !   Look out <random ingredient> you're next !
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 09:47:29 AM
We need a homebrewing achievement badge for writing a rant about an ingredient.

LOL!  Thanks Jimmy!
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 09:53:47 AM
I'm thinking that the craze for carapils in IPA's stemmed from the Pliny recipe. Anyways, I used it for a minute based upon that recipe.

It was around LONG before that.

Look, people, it's just a tool in the toolbox.  I definitely don't believe that carapils is the only answer for foam creation and retention.  Good recipe design, mashing and fermenting techniques can take care of that.  But that's not to say that carapils doesn't also have it's place.  Just like tools, if you need a hammer, use a hammer.  Don't try to do a hammer's job with a screwdriver.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 09:57:50 AM
Thad being said, how do you feel about adding wheat malt for head retention?  Probably not necessary but I've been doing it for years...
[/quote]

Now wheat adds proteins not dextrins which aid in head retention so that is different.  How much of an effect, I have no idea, but it is a different contributing factor.  Wheat will also add flavor while CP does not.....

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 10:03:10 AM

Thad being said, how do you feel about adding wheat malt for head retention?  Probably not necessary but I've been doing it for years...

Now wheat adds proteins not dextrins which aid in head retention so that is a different.  How much of an effect, I have no idea, but it is a different contributing factor.  Wheat will also add flavor while CP does not.....

Dave
[/quote]

ANY malt will add proteins, carapils included.  And it does have a flavor to it.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 10:05:03 AM

Thad being said, how do you feel about adding wheat malt for head retention?  Probably not necessary but I've been doing it for years...

Now wheat adds proteins not dextrins which aid in head retention so that is a different.  How much of an effect, I have no idea, but it is a different contributing factor.  Wheat will also add flavor while CP does not.....



Dave

ANY malt will add proteins, carapils included.  And it does have a flavor to it.
[/quote]

Denny, wheat adds more proteins including gluten while barley does not.  That is the contributing factor....

And everything has a flavor but CaraPils is designed specifically not to add flavor to a beer.

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 10:06:28 AM
Denny, wheat adds more proteins including gluten while barley does not.  That is the contributing factor....

And everything has a flavor but CaraPils is designed specifically not to add flavor to a beer.

Dave

Dave, I gotta disagree here.  Barley malt definitely adds proteins.  And if you use enough carapils, you'll find that it does have its own flavor.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 10:11:33 AM
Denny, wheat adds more proteins including gluten while barley does not.  That is the contributing factor....

And everything has a flavor but CaraPils is designed specifically not to add flavor to a beer.

Dave

Dave, I gotta disagree here.  Barley malt definitely adds proteins.  And if you use enough carapils, you'll find that it does have its own flavor.

I'll give you the latter but not the former.  If we are talking absolutes, then you are correct about flavor.

However, Gluten is almost zero in barley while in high quantity in wheat.  This is what gives wheat it's foam stability characteristics.  Big difference.

EDIT:  It's a different protein not found in barley....
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 10:14:39 AM
Denny,

Don't get me re-fired up over Cara-Pils!!!!   :o   ;D

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 13, 2013, 10:17:36 AM
The Pilsners I brew have great head retention. 100% Pils malt.

Except for the CAP, 6 row and corn, that has great head retention too.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 10:19:21 AM
Denny,

Don't get me re-fired up over Cara-Pils!!!!   :o   ;D

Dave

Dave, I just want you to have accurate info to support your bias!  ;)  Here's one of many citations about proteins in barley...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley .  Why do you think hops help to increase foam formation and retention?  It's because the polyphenols in the hops bind the proteins in the beer to create foam.  That happens even without wheat.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 10:26:29 AM
Denny,

Don't get me re-fired up over Cara-Pils!!!!   :o   ;D

Dave

Dave, I just want you to have accurate info to support your bias!  ;)  Here's one of many citations about proteins in barley...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley .  Why do you think hops help to increase foam formation and retention?  It's because the polyphenols in the hops bind the proteins in the beer to create foam.  That happens even without wheat.

Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 10:27:50 AM
Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave

Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 13, 2013, 10:57:33 AM
Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?

Maybe he's going gluten free?

After reflecting on using carapils (haven't for years, thought about going back to it) I recognize that I don't need it in my beers for head retention as they're doing just fine.

So, as a tool, what other use would you have for it?  My recollection over the past many years has always been that it was advised for head retention.

Denny - are you suggesting that as a tool you might use it for minor flavor contributions?  Or simply to help add body?  I've pretty much disregarded it for years.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 11:00:29 AM
Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave

Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?

Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave 
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: morticaixavier on December 13, 2013, 11:09:52 AM
Agreed.  I'm not disputing that barley has proteins, just that wheat has a different type of protein with a higher molecular weight called gluten that barley does not.  It changes the game in regards to foam stability in a way that CP can not because it lacks gluten.  Check it out...

Dave

Yes, wheat has gluten.  Can you explain to me why it makes a difference?

Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

barley also has gluten. Those that suffer from Gluten intolerance or celiac disease are not able to safely consume and all barley beer any more than one with wheat it in. Malted grain, whether barley or wheat, has LESS gluten than unmalted grain.

However, the brewers clarex product that reduced gluten so that GI and celiac folks can drink it totally eliminates all gluten from the beer or at least makes the level so low as to be undetectable and has zero effect on head retention as far as I could tell and I actually split a 10 gallon batch with 5 getting the clarex and the other not.

There may be proteins in wheat that are not in barley but it's not gluten. and the question is not whether wheat aids head retention but whether it is needed in an IPA with lots of hops. On this I actually have no opinion except to say that I don't bother and do not have a problem with head retention.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 11:11:42 AM
Denny - are you suggesting that as a tool you might use it for minor flavor contributions?  Or simply to help add body?  I've pretty much disregarded it for years.

I think of it as a way to add body.  Secondarily, you get a bit of flavor (depending on how much you use) and like any maly addition it will add protein that could possibly aid foam formation and retention.  But as this points out http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques if you have other problems, adding carapils or wheat won't help.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 11:12:50 AM
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 13, 2013, 11:15:56 AM
Denny - are you suggesting that as a tool you might use it for minor flavor contributions?  Or simply to help add body?  I've pretty much disregarded it for years.

I think of it as a way to add body.  Secondarily, you get a bit of flavor (depending on how much you use) and like any maly addition it will add protein that could possibly aid foam formation and retention.  But as this points out http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques if you have other problems, adding carapils or wheat won't help.

Haven't thought about using it just to add body.  Maybe it's the ingredient I need to help make the perfect Belgian Blonde.  I've just not been happy with the one's I've made and one of the issues has been that they don't have enough body.  Mashing higher helped a bit, but still didn't get me what I want.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 11:19:40 AM
The article is old but here is the excerpt....

Barley and Wheat
The most striking physical difference between barley and wheat is that wheat lacks barley’s familiar husk. The kernel is also a different shape — more rounded than barley, with a pronounced groove. Chart 1 illustrates the essential differences in composition. Wheat is significantly lower in cellulose and lipids, and higher in protein and starch than barley.

The varying protein level is the most significant difference. For one thing, wheat offers higher yields. Typical pale malt extracts run from 80 to 83 percent, while wheat malt extracts run from 84 to 88 percent.

The higher protein levels of wheat greatly enhance its contribution to foam stability - which means a better, longer-lasting head on the beer - and increase the beer’s mouthfeel (its sensation of fullness in the drinker’s mouth). The downside, and there always seems to be a downside, is that the higher protein levels can create problems in the brewhouse and make the beer hazy. Filtering out the haze can lessen the finished beer’s stability.

Not only are the levels of proteins different between barley and wheat, but the proteins themselves are different. Glutens, which are so critical to the formation of a good bread loaf, are virtually non-existent in barley yet make up 80 percent of wheat proteins. These high-molecular-weight proteins, which allow a loaf to stretch and then hold its shape, are the same proteins that can build a dense head in beer.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 11:21:15 AM
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)

No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 13, 2013, 11:32:42 AM
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)

No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)

I propose that this be settled with feats of strength.

It is, after all, the season for Festivus.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 11:33:51 AM
Nope.  Not a chemist.  But since it has a higher molecular weight than the proteins in barley it stands to reason that it will have a different effect on the foam stability of the beer. Therefore, and to my only point, wheat will have a different effect on foam stability than CP.

I have some time this afternoon so I'll research this further and round back.

Dave

No offense, Dave, but "stands to reason" isn't the evidence I was looking for!  :)

No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)

I propose that this be settled with feats of strength.

It is, after all, the season for Festivus.

Are you holding the Festivus pole?  Denny would kick my ass, no fair.....
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 13, 2013, 11:42:57 AM
Love a good Seinfeld reference. I think you have to start with the airing of grievances, then go 'til somebody gets pinned.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 11:52:11 AM
This chart would support my position that the amount of protein and type of gluten is different in Wheat and Barley.  Now to find out if there is something that can relate each specifically to foam stability....

Type and Percentage of Gluten In Different Grains (in order)
Grain-Type of Gluten-% Total Protein
Wheat-Gliadin-69%
Corn-Zien-55%
Sorghum-Kafirin-52%
Barley-Hordein-46-52%
Rye-Secalin-30-50%
Millet-Panicin-40%
Oats-Avenin-16%
Teff-Penniseiten-11%
Rice-Orzenin-5%
 
Based on information supplied in ‘Glutenology’, Dr Peter Osborne-2011
 "I have seen people gradually progress through this table, becoming intolerant to one after another grain almost in order of the level of gluten found."

EDIT:  Link to article-http://www.coeliacsmatter.com/digestive_conditions_coeliac/gluten_intolerance/glut_int_articles/gluten_no_grain_no_pain_rose.html (http://www.coeliacsmatter.com/digestive_conditions_coeliac/gluten_intolerance/glut_int_articles/gluten_no_grain_no_pain_rose.html)
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 13, 2013, 11:57:45 AM
No offense taken.  And to be fair, you are not always correct either.... ;)

Aye.  My wife never lets me forget that....
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: tschmidlin on December 13, 2013, 12:46:12 PM
This chart would support my position that the amount of protein and type of gluten is different in Wheat and Barley.  Now to find out if there is something that can relate each specifically to foam stability....

Type and Percentage of Gluten In Different Grains (in order)
Grain-Type of Gluten-% Total Protein
Wheat-Gliadin-69%
Corn-Zien-55%
Sorghum-Kafirin-52%
Barley-Hordein-46-52%
Rye-Secalin-30-50%
Millet-Panicin-40%
Oats-Avenin-16%
Teff-Penniseiten-11%
Rice-Orzenin-5%
 
Based on information supplied in ‘Glutenology’, Dr Peter Osborne-2011
 "I have seen people gradually progress through this table, becoming intolerant to one after another grain almost in order of the level of gluten found."

EDIT:  Link to article-http://www.coeliacsmatter.com/digestive_conditions_coeliac/gluten_intolerance/glut_int_articles/gluten_no_grain_no_pain_rose.html (http://www.coeliacsmatter.com/digestive_conditions_coeliac/gluten_intolerance/glut_int_articles/gluten_no_grain_no_pain_rose.html)
I don't believe this table is accurate.  Specifically, I don't believe that gliadin is 69% of the total protein in wheat.  What about glutenin?  Maybe glutenin + gliadin gets you to 69%.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 12:56:11 PM
Tom, I read that as Gliadin is the name of the Gluten in wheat and that there is 69% total protein in wheat.  They are mutually exclusive...

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 01:16:20 PM
I take back my "stands to reason" and offer the following.  This should help my cause:  From Beer: A Quality Perspective

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7344/11357172473_50f17107c4_z.jpg)

Therefore Wheat and CaraPils will have different effects on foam stability.  Fun exercise.

Time for a frothy IPA which I made without Wheat or CaraPils..... ;D
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: yso191 on December 13, 2013, 01:37:34 PM
Good thread.  People should go on a rant on a regular basis - we'd all learn a lot!
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: alestateyall on December 13, 2013, 01:42:00 PM
Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: tschmidlin on December 13, 2013, 01:45:39 PM
Tom, I read that as Gliadin is the name of the Gluten in wheat and that there is 69% total protein in wheat.  They are mutually exclusive...

Dave

If you are right then they are not mutually exclusive since total protein includes gluten. ;)  But raw wheat is something like 8-15% protein, not 69%.  Good malting barley is around 11-12% protein.

Also, they named the table "Type and Percentage of Gluten In Different Grains (in order)"  Note the "percentage of gluten" part of that.  They are saying that 69% of the total protein is gluten.  They are also saying that the type of gluten is gliadin.  Here is the problem - gliadin is a component of wheat gluten, but it is not 69% of the gluten or of the total protein.

Gluten is made up of several types of protein that go by different names.  Gliadin (and the others listed, including zein from corn) are the prolamin component of gluten from that grain.  Glutenin is in the glutelin family of proteins, and is a major component of the total protein and of gluten.

If you look at the table below you'll see that, under the conditions they tested, gliadin accounted for ~23% of protein content, and glutenin ~40%.
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/64/12/3627/T2.expansion.html

So I'm still going with that table being inaccurate.  And misleading.  And it has a typo.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 01:49:52 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I'll go with you on that one Tom....
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 01:50:56 PM
Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...

It's OK to use it whenever you want.  I was just ranting to make a point about using it in IPAs with crystal and a lot of hops specifically for head retention.....don't mind me.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: alestateyall on December 13, 2013, 02:16:35 PM

Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...

It's OK to use it whenever you want.  I was just ranting to make a point about using it in IPAs with crystal and a lot of hops specifically for head retention.....don't mind me.

I was just kidding around. But I do seriously have about 4oz of catapults in the brew closet that I has been sitting there for months. I plan to throw it in something soon.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: Pinski on December 13, 2013, 02:19:17 PM

Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...

It's OK to use it whenever you want.  I was just ranting to make a point about using it in IPAs with crystal and a lot of hops specifically for head retention.....don't mind me.

I was just kidding around. But I do seriously have about 4oz of catapults in the brew closet that I has been sitting there for months. I plan to throw it in something soon.
Throw something with it?  ::)
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 02:21:00 PM

Is it OK to use Carapils in an IPA just to get rid of it? You know it's taking up space in the brew closet...

It's OK to use it whenever you want.  I was just ranting to make a point about using it in IPAs with crystal and a lot of hops specifically for head retention.....don't mind me.

I was just kidding around. But I do seriously have about 4oz of catapults in the brew closet that I has been sitting there for months. I plan to throw it in something soon.

Toss it in an IPA with some crystal 40 and a ton of hops.

I hear it's great for head retention..... ;D
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 13, 2013, 02:38:52 PM
Tom, I read that as Gliadin is the name of the Gluten in wheat and that there is 69% total protein in wheat.  They are mutually exclusive...

Dave

If you are right then they are not mutually exclusive since total protein includes gluten. ;)  But raw wheat is something like 8-15% protein, not 69%.  Good malting barley is around 11-12% protein.

Also, they named the table "Type and Percentage of Gluten In Different Grains (in order)"  Note the "percentage of gluten" part of that.  They are saying that 69% of the total protein is gluten.  They are also saying that the type of gluten is gliadin.  Here is the problem - gliadin is a component of wheat gluten, but it is not 69% of the gluten or of the total protein.

Gluten is made up of several types of protein that go by different names.  Gliadin (and the others listed, including zein from corn) are the prolamin component of gluten from that grain.  Glutenin is in the glutelin family of proteins, and is a major component of the total protein and of gluten.

If you look at the table below you'll see that, under the conditions they tested, gliadin accounted for ~23% of protein content, and glutenin ~40%.
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/64/12/3627/T2.expansion.html

So I'm still going with that table being inaccurate.  And misleading.  And it has a typo.

But what is the percentage of gluteus?  Maximus?
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 13, 2013, 02:40:17 PM
^^^^^^^^^^LMAO....
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: narcout on December 13, 2013, 05:29:18 PM
I swear Sierra Nevada's website used to specifically list carapils as an ingredient in Torpedo and Celebration. 

Now it just says "Two-row Pale, Caramel." 
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: tschmidlin on December 13, 2013, 11:37:54 PM
But what is the percentage of gluteus?  Maximus?
;D
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: denny on December 14, 2013, 10:51:40 AM
I swear Sierra Nevada's website used to specifically list carapils as an ingredient in Torpedo and Celebration. 

Now it just says "Two-row Pale, Caramel."

I'm as certain as I can be that Celebration has always been just pale and crystal.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: reverseapachemaster on December 14, 2013, 02:13:54 PM
The only reason it makes sense to use carapils is if your brewhouse is set to mash at a specific temperature but you need/want more dextrins in your beer. Rather than recalibrate your system to mash higher on some beers you can adjust the dextrin content of different beers with carapils.

Definitely agree carapils is overused by homebrewers and often used for the wrong reason. Recipes mashing at 149 for fermentability with a chunk of carapils makes no sense. Just ferment warmer and leave out the carapils.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: troybinso on December 14, 2013, 05:18:30 PM
I find that Carapils works well to increase body, without adding the residual sweetness you get from higher crystal/cara malts. I have found that mash temps don't really have as much effect on body as the grain bill.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: erockrph on December 14, 2013, 11:17:16 PM
I find that Carapils works well to increase body, without adding the residual sweetness you get from higher crystal/cara malts. I have found that mash temps don't really have as much effect on body as the grain bill.

I agree with your first sentence, but to the second I would counter that you just aren't mashing high enough. I haven't seen any appreciable difference in body even mashing as high as 156. It's not until I hit the 158-162 F range where I've seen an increase in body. I think that most of the malt we're using nowadays are so loaded with enzymes that even in the mid 150's they've done their job before the majority of them have denatured.

I mash barleywines at 148, session beers and anything seeing some Brett at 162, and everything else at 153. But I do think you have the right idea for the proper use of CaraPils.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: klickitat jim on December 14, 2013, 11:53:39 PM
Hi. My name is Jim, and I use carapils.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: Pinski on December 15, 2013, 12:30:29 AM
Hi. My name is Jim, and I use carapils.
;D Hi Jim!
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 15, 2013, 06:54:48 AM
Hi. My name is Jim, and I use carapils.

In an IPA with 2 pounds of crystal malt and a sh_t ton of hops for the sole purpose of head retention while mashing at 149F?   :o :o :o :o

I'm using some in my BoPils today.

Dave

Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 15, 2013, 07:30:37 AM
I find that Carapils works well to increase body, without adding the residual sweetness you get from higher crystal/cara malts. I have found that mash temps don't really have as much effect on body as the grain bill.

I agree with your first sentence, but to the second I would counter that you just aren't mashing high enough. I haven't seen any appreciable difference in body even mashing as high as 156. It's not until I hit the 158-162 F range where I've seen an increase in body. I think that most of the malt we're using nowadays are so loaded with enzymes that even in the mid 150's they've done their job before the majority of them have denatured.

I mash barleywines at 148, session beers and anything seeing some Brett at 162, and everything else at 153. But I do think you have the right idea for the proper use of CaraPils.

Beta is active up to the 158F temp, where it rapidly denatures. Alpha denatures rapidly at 176F.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: blatz on December 16, 2013, 07:26:22 AM
I swear Sierra Nevada's website used to specifically list carapils as an ingredient in Torpedo and Celebration. 

Now it just says "Two-row Pale, Caramel."

I'm as certain as I can be that Celebration has always been just pale and crystal.

i do recall that Torpedo did, but never saw Celebration say that.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: erockrph on December 16, 2013, 07:52:42 AM
I find that Carapils works well to increase body, without adding the residual sweetness you get from higher crystal/cara malts. I have found that mash temps don't really have as much effect on body as the grain bill.

I agree with your first sentence, but to the second I would counter that you just aren't mashing high enough. I haven't seen any appreciable difference in body even mashing as high as 156. It's not until I hit the 158-162 F range where I've seen an increase in body. I think that most of the malt we're using nowadays are so loaded with enzymes that even in the mid 150's they've done their job before the majority of them have denatured.

I mash barleywines at 148, session beers and anything seeing some Brett at 162, and everything else at 153. But I do think you have the right idea for the proper use of CaraPils.

Beta is active up to the 158F temp, where it rapidly denatures. Alpha denatures rapidly at 176F.

Which is why it amazes me that I hear things like "you should mash high around 152-153F to get some extra body". It's one of those old brewers myths that just keeps hanging on that 153F is a high mash temp, and 156 is super high.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: milligan101 on December 16, 2013, 12:04:40 PM
wow, so I feel a bit complicit (or indicted :-[) in this thread, as it may have been my post in another thread on this board that got Dave so revved up...

I brewed my IPA last night with carapils and wheat as I've done for years.  If my grain had not been milled and. Mixed I would have left it out.  Oh well, I guess i need to brew another.  Then, a head to head (I hope, but unsure without the carapils!) tasting.

Good discussion, lots of information that would otherwise require hours of book reading.

cheers!
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 16, 2013, 12:08:54 PM
wow, so I feel a bit complicit (or indicted :-[) in this thread, as it may have been my post in another thread on this board that got Dave so revved up...

I brewed my IPA last night with carapils and wheat as I've done for years.  If my grain had not been milled and. Mixed I would have left it out.  Oh well, I guess i need to brew another.  Then, a head to head (I hope, but unsure without the carapils!) tasting.

Good discussion, lots of information that would otherwise require hours of book reading.

cheers!

Not you dude!  Like I said, it was building for a while.   :o

Let us know if you see a difference once you brew without. It's a good exercise.

Dave
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: tomsawyer on December 18, 2013, 09:31:08 AM
Without delving into the mechanisms I can say that, in my own experience, adding a little wheat to a recipe is a good way to ensure good head retention.  It often gives a bit more of a rocky head too, which I like.  Would it happen without wheat?  Probably but theres no real downside either unless you're out of wheat and don't brew anyway.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: mabrungard on December 18, 2013, 01:54:05 PM
+1 regarding wheat malt or flaked wheat for building head. Very effective. I also tried flaked barley for about a  half dozen brews. Flaked barley delivers about 10 times the beta-glucan as wheat and the head was huge! But I felt the flavor was downgraded in pale beers, even with teeny additions, so I switched to wheat. Wheat is more neutral tasting to me.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: klickitat jim on December 18, 2013, 02:26:18 PM
I suspect that many homebrewers (maybe not AHA members) chase after that magic cure. Lack of head/lacing/body is NOT from a lack of Carapils. It could easily be some other problems causing no body. That or beer had no head or body or lacing until carapils was invented. In my opinion carapils lets us brew really thin beers with the body of bigger beers. Point being, if you brew a big bad IPA but it needs carapils to have any body or foam? Sumpins wrong
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: blatz on December 18, 2013, 02:35:49 PM
so Briess and Weyermann, etc.  are producing, literally, tons of Carapils/Carafoam for the few thousand or so homebrewers out there that think they need it for head retention?  :o

As Denny said, its a tool in the tool box.  It does have a flavor and I do like to use it when I want to add some body/dextrines to a beer without darkening it too much or adding too much crystal flavor  - such as in my Dortmunder and a handful of other styles. Using C-15L here is a bit much. I sort of view it is as super light crystal.  I've tinkered with using it in IIPA before but have gone away from that in recent batches.

Demand begats supply - if some significant percentage of pros didn't demand it, it wouldn't be around...
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: klickitat jim on December 18, 2013, 02:59:51 PM
I use it too. I'll bet lots of people use it. I doubt there are tons of pro brewers who don't know how to use it, or who use it when they don't need to.
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: davidgzach on December 18, 2013, 03:04:52 PM
I use it too. I'll bet lots of people use it. I doubt there are tons of pro brewers who don't know how to use it, or who use it when they don't need to.

I use it three!
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: klickitat jim on December 18, 2013, 03:29:48 PM
Yea!
Title: Re: Gotta Vent about CaraPils
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 23, 2013, 01:16:33 PM
I don't have a separate "Carapils vent"; I leave the lid on the Mash Tun during the mash and only vent the lid a little during the boil. What is this Carapils Vent I see mentioned? ::)

FWIW, I use and endorse Carapils, but avoid using it with Carafoam :o