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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: duboman on December 18, 2013, 03:18:15 PM

Title: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 18, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
To any BJCP judges out there: I brew a true all malt 10% Hard Root Beer and am wondering if it could be submitted in a BJCP sanctioned comp under category 23. There is nothing in it that isn't an ingredient of beer except for the Gnome Extract I use for flavoring and all the ABV is derived from fermented malt.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: tomsawyer on December 18, 2013, 04:18:28 PM
Heck yeah.  I've though about it before but never executed.  I have made a homemade rootbeer with roots and mint and stuff in it.  Pretty good, a little different than your standard rootbeer.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: AmandaK on December 18, 2013, 04:21:48 PM
I don't see why not. Hell, I'd like to try it!
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: tomsawyer on December 18, 2013, 07:01:49 PM
I called it first Amanda.

Since I generally get relegated to specialty or veggie/herb anyway, it'd likely be in my flight anyway.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Stevie on December 18, 2013, 08:08:06 PM
1 - Is it good? I assume yes if you are looking to enter into a comp

2 - Recipe?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: AmandaK on December 18, 2013, 08:23:41 PM
I called it first Amanda.

Since I generally get relegated to specialty or veggie/herb anyway, it'd likely be in my flight anyway.

Haha. Okay, fine. You win.  ;D

You can enter it in our club's competition here after January 10th: http://www.kcbiermeisters.org/comp/ (http://www.kcbiermeisters.org/comp/) I'd love to try it.
Title: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 18, 2013, 11:15:13 PM
You all are too funny!

Yes, it is actually great! As for entering in your comp I would love to but am not sure how it will travel and keep. It needs to stay cold so no secondary fermentation occurs unless someone can tell me how to kill off the yeast.

Here's the recipe though: It's a 3 gallon batch size and I keg it in a 3 gallon corny under 30psi

Total Grain Weight: 8 lbs 8.6 oz   Total Hops: 0.00 oz oz.
---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------

Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
        Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        75.0 %       
           De-Bittered Black Malt (Dingemans) (550. Grain         2        3.0 %         
              Carafa I (337.0 SRM)            Grain         3        2.0 %         
              Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM)   Grain         4        2.0 %         


Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 2.88 gal of water at 165.3 F        156.0 F       60 min 
Batch sparge to achieve 5.25 gallons pre-boil volume. Post boil volume 3 gallons  (YMMV)     

Post fermentation Notes:
Cold crash 3 days
Make simple syrup of corn sugar into 5 cups water, add to keg
boil malto-dextrine into 2 cups water, add to keg
Boil lactose into 1 cup water, add to keg
Add Gnome Root Beer Extract
Rack beer to keg and carb to 30 psi, serve. Note: you will need 25' of 3/16 bev line under this pressure.

OG: 1.090
FG: 1.010

Pours dark like root beer with a nice dense, thin tan head and tastes like a nice creamy root beer! If anyone decides to try this I would be thrilled to hear your thoughts.

If someone can tell me what I could add to the keg to prevent further fermentation so I could bottle without worries I would greatly appreciate it!

Edit note: after reviewing and considering the amount of work I put into getting this recipe exact I edited the recipe to remove the fine details but will certainly field questions. I want to see how it does in a comp first.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Stevie on December 18, 2013, 11:19:06 PM
Next time hit with campden tablets before kegging.

How does Guinness pasteurize their beer.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: AmandaK on December 18, 2013, 11:30:24 PM
I do stove top pasteurization to keep these kinds of beers and ciders.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 18, 2013, 11:32:12 PM

Next time hit with campden tablets before kegging.

How does Guinness pasteurize their beer.

Camp den tablets post fermentation, before racking or crashing? How many for 3 gallons?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 18, 2013, 11:33:20 PM

I do stove top pasteurization to keep these kinds of beers and ciders.
meaning you bring it to a boil for a few minutes? Then crash and rack?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Stevie on December 19, 2013, 12:00:57 AM

Next time hit with campden tablets before kegging.

How does Guinness pasteurize their beer.

Camp den tablets post fermentation, before racking or crashing? How many for 3 gallons?

The amount I have always seen is 1 tablet for 20 gallons or must or water. I have used it for unpasteurized cider and I used about 1/2 tablet to 5 gallons because I was lazy.

Maybe gelatin, along with a long cold condition would work too. Or you could always filter.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: AmandaK on December 19, 2013, 01:01:04 AM

I do stove top pasteurization to keep these kinds of beers and ciders.
meaning you bring it to a boil for a few minutes? Then crash and rack?
Put bottles in tap water, bring slowly up to 180-190, hold for 20 minutes. Pull bottles out. Easy peasy!
Title: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 19, 2013, 01:14:13 AM

I do stove top pasteurization to keep these kinds of beers and ciders.
meaning you bring it to a boil for a few minutes? Then crash and rack?
Put bottles in tap water, bring slowly up to 180-190, hold for 20 minutes. Pull bottles out. Easy peasy!
Thanks Amanda! I'll assume I can bottle off the keg and then do this without affecting the carbonation, correct?

Gary
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: AmandaK on December 19, 2013, 03:05:54 AM

I do stove top pasteurization to keep these kinds of beers and ciders.
meaning you bring it to a boil for a few minutes? Then crash and rack?
Put bottles in tap water, bring slowly up to 180-190, hold for 20 minutes. Pull bottles out. Easy peasy!
Thanks Amanda! I'll assume I can bottle off the keg and then do this without affecting the carbonation, correct?

Gary

I would assume so (if you don't loose the cap's seal), but I have only done it with bottle conditioned sours for stability's sake and a bottle conditioned carbonated cider to see if it'd work.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 19, 2013, 12:47:15 PM

I do stove top pasteurization to keep these kinds of beers and ciders.
meaning you bring it to a boil for a few minutes? Then crash and rack?
Put bottles in tap water, bring slowly up to 180-190, hold for 20 minutes. Pull bottles out. Easy peasy!

Doesn't that approach the boiling point of the alcohol? Like what distillers do?  Seems like there is a potential for a blowout.  No problems, though?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: AmandaK on December 19, 2013, 02:31:49 PM

Put bottles in tap water, bring slowly up to 180-190, hold for 20 minutes. Pull bottles out. Easy peasy!

Doesn't that approach the boiling point of the alcohol? Like what distillers do?  Seems like there is a potential for a blowout.  No problems, though?
[/quote]

The 190 has worked for me as far as effective pasteurization goes, yes. I did have a bottle explode in the water once. However, it was completely submerged in water so the shards were contained. Scared the bejeebus out of me for sure though!

The boiling point of alcohol is 173, IIRC.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 19, 2013, 03:34:34 PM

I do stove top pasteurization to keep these kinds of beers and ciders.
meaning you bring it to a boil for a few minutes? Then crash and rack?
Put bottles in tap water, bring slowly up to 180-190, hold for 20 minutes. Pull bottles out. Easy peasy!
Thanks Amanda! I'll assume I can bottle off the keg and then do this without affecting the carbonation, correct?

Gary

I would assume so (if you don't loose the cap's seal), but I have only done it with bottle conditioned sours for stability's sake and a bottle conditioned carbonated cider to see if it'd work.

Bottle conditioned or bottled from a keg, I can't think there would be a difference although the concern of exploding bottles doesn't really appeal to me............Might give one a try but I will do a little more research. If anyone else has suggestions let me know. I am wondering if there is anything I can add to the keg to kill off the yeast without affecting the flavor profile?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Stevie on December 19, 2013, 04:26:49 PM
Bottle conditioned or bottled from a keg, I can't think there would be a difference although the concern of exploding bottles doesn't really appeal to me............Might give one a try but I will do a little more research. If anyone else has suggestions let me know. I am wondering if there is anything I can add to the keg to kill off the yeast without affecting the flavor profile?

Researching campden tablets further, people seem to agree that it will take care of most of the yeast, but the yeast these days are bred to be resistant to the sulphates. Some yeast will survive and will take off again at some point.

There has to be a way to do this without filtering or ruining the product.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: denny on December 19, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
Next time hit with campden tablets before kegging.

How does Guinness pasteurize their beer.

Does Guinness pasteurize their beer?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Stevie on December 19, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
Next time hit with campden tablets before kegging.

How does Guinness pasteurize their beer.

Does Guinness pasteurize their beer?

They used to note it straight on the bottles and cans. http://cheeptalk.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/photo.jpg

Maybe they no longer do this?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Jeff M on December 20, 2013, 02:16:19 AM
People who make wine use Potassium Sorbate.

2Cents
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 20, 2013, 01:21:36 PM

People who make wine use Potassium Sorbate.

2Cents
i was reading this as well but didn't find anything pertaining to beer, I'd assume it wouldn't change/add anything to the flavor? Can I add it to the current keg I have tapped so I can pull a few bottles, or does it need to be added somewhere else in the process?
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Alewyfe on December 20, 2013, 06:24:25 PM
The chemists here will have more info I'm sure, but from my canning experience, killing unwanted mircro-organisms is a function of time+temp+pH.

I'm thinking you can stay well under the boiling point of alcohol and do this much more safely by reducing the temp of your water bath and extending the time. I would leave one taller (above water line) bottle uncapped and check temp in it to make sure content temps were high enough. The capped bottles are going to be under pressure so their temps will be higher than the uncapped one.
I'd think it's worth a try, and the lower temps are less likely to impart a cooked taste to your product.
Here's a USDA paper on pasteurization:
http://extension.psu.edu/food/safety/course-follow-up-information/juice-haccp-resources/food-safety-juice-haccp-regulations/FDA%20Recommended%20Pasteurization%20Time.pdf/view

Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: tomsawyer on December 20, 2013, 06:59:21 PM
I pasteurized a stout once, believe I used 165FA for 15min.  I do use sorbate in my back-sweetened ciders.  Or you can use Splenda.

Doesn't matter what the BP of ethanol is, a 5% ABV mixture will only start boiling in the mid 190's.  And pressure would raise the BP.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: tomsawyer on December 20, 2013, 07:00:21 PM
I bete the commerical outfits do flash pasteurization, high temp for a very short time.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: hoser on December 20, 2013, 07:39:49 PM
So was yeast already added to this and it is fermented out?  Don't see yeast listed on the recipe, but I would assume so since it is hard rootbeer?  Trying to figure out the need to flash pasteurize or stabilize for a comp if all of the fermentables have already been metabolized by the yeast.  Just curious...
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 20, 2013, 08:27:26 PM

So was yeast already added to this and it is fermented out?  Don't see yeast listed on the recipe, but I would assume so since it is hard rootbeer?  Trying to figure out the need to flash pasteurize or stabilize for a comp if all of the fermentables have already been metabolized by the yeast.  Just curious...
yes, fully fermented out but the final product is back sweetened with sugar in the keg, hence the need to pasteurize if bottling for a comp.

To follow up, spoke with the great folks at Wyeast and they suggested exactly what Amanda did earlier in the thread but at 175 for about 15-20 minutes so that's what I'm going to do and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Jimmy K on December 21, 2013, 03:45:34 AM
Bottle conditioned or bottled from a keg, I can't think there would be a difference although the concern of exploding bottles doesn't really appeal to me............Might give one a try but I will do a little more research. If anyone else has suggestions let me know. I am wondering if there is anything I can add to the keg to kill off the yeast without affecting the flavor profile?

Researching campden tablets further, people seem to agree that it will take care of most of the yeast, but the yeast these days are bred to be resistant to the sulphates. Some yeast will survive and will take off again at some point.

There has to be a way to do this without filtering or ruining the product.
Campden will stop fermentation temporarily, but it will restart. Potassium sorbate will stop fermentation from restarting. Sorbate alone might work if fermentation has stopped. Campden alone will not, it only stuns yeast. Both together are a sure bet.

I'm pretty sure the campden dose rate is 1 per 20 liters, not gallons. But the dose also depends on pH.

Sent from a parallel dimension where beer is made from unicorn tears

Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: Jeff M on December 21, 2013, 01:36:17 PM
Noone has suggested filtering to my knowledge.  How about passing it threw one of these?
http://morebeer.com/products/beer-wine-plate-filter-kit.html

I have never filtered but thats how breweries deal with yeast and 70 bucks isnt as expensive as some of the other options i have seen:)
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: duboman on December 21, 2013, 02:44:40 PM

Noone has suggested filtering to my knowledge.  How about passing it threw one of these?
http://morebeer.com/products/beer-wine-plate-filter-kit.html

I have never filtered but thats how breweries deal with yeast and 70 bucks isnt as expensive as some of the other options i have seen:)
filtering was suggested earlier but since I really just keg this and am looking to only bottle a few for a comp it's really not worth the $70 right now.
Title: Re: Hard Root Beer in a comp?
Post by: tschmidlin on December 22, 2013, 08:20:07 AM
I'm pretty sure the campden dose rate is 1 per 20 liters, not gallons. But the dose also depends on pH.
For wine and cider, you typically use 1 per gallon to kill the wild microorganisms.  To remove chlorine or chloramine, it is 1 per 20 gallons.