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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: yso191 on December 20, 2013, 09:49:06 PM

Title: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: yso191 on December 20, 2013, 09:49:06 PM
I am currently trying to push the carbonation of a Scottish Ale, and was going over in my head the various methods of doing so. 

Then it occurred to me to simply hook the gas to the beverage out post.  Then as the gas is absorbed and pressure allows, a gas bubble would travel from the bottom of the beer to the top, exposing much more beer to the gas, hence carbonating rapidly.

Has anyone tried this?  It would be an interesting timed experiment.

Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: micsager on December 20, 2013, 09:55:29 PM
I am currently trying to push the carbonation of a Scottish Ale, and was going over in my head the various methods of doing so. 

Then it occurred to me to simply hook the gas to the beverage out post.  Then as the gas is absorbed and pressure allows, a gas bubble would travel from the bottom of the beer to the top, exposing much more beer to the gas, hence carbonating rapidly.

Has anyone tried this?  It would be an interesting timed experiment.

I've heard of folks doing that, and I remember some saying it didn't do any good.  I've never tried.  Let us know how it works.  (I assume your still using a beer ball lock plumbed to your gas line, right?) 
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 20, 2013, 09:57:02 PM
only thing i know is its all about solubility and relates to surface area, temp and pressure variants that drive c02 absorption.

i'm not sure that entering the bottom of keg makes any difference....smarter peeps than i out there so lets see what is said.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: duboman on December 20, 2013, 10:03:44 PM
I know that this is actually a method used by some to degas an over carbonated keg as it forces the excess co2 out of solution faster somehow, there's a dude with a YouTube video showing how it's done and having tried it once I can say it works. Can't find the link but you can search YouTube, I remember the guy being somewhat drunk during the video and belching a lot!

Thinking about an in-carbonated keg I would assume it might provide faster carbonation for the reasons you stated but I'm not that smart with these things:D
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: denny on December 20, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
I am currently trying to push the carbonation of a Scottish Ale, and was going over in my head the various methods of doing so. 

Then it occurred to me to simply hook the gas to the beverage out post.  Then as the gas is absorbed and pressure allows, a gas bubble would travel from the bottom of the beer to the top, exposing much more beer to the gas, hence carbonating rapidly.

Has anyone tried this?  It would be an interesting timed experiment.

I've tried it a number of times.  It made no difference.  Yeah, it seems like it should, but it doesn't.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: yso191 on December 20, 2013, 10:55:49 PM
I am currently trying to push the carbonation of a Scottish Ale, and was going over in my head the various methods of doing so. 

Then it occurred to me to simply hook the gas to the beverage out post.  Then as the gas is absorbed and pressure allows, a gas bubble would travel from the bottom of the beer to the top, exposing much more beer to the gas, hence carbonating rapidly.

Has anyone tried this?  It would be an interesting timed experiment.

I've tried it a number of times.  It made no difference.  Yeah, it seems like it should, but it doesn't.

Ah.  Well, back to the drawing board.  In addition I think it would keep the beer stirred up rather than settling out when combined with cold crashing like I am.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Joe Sr. on December 20, 2013, 11:01:21 PM
I am currently trying to push the carbonation of a Scottish Ale, and was going over in my head the various methods of doing so. 

Then it occurred to me to simply hook the gas to the beverage out post.  Then as the gas is absorbed and pressure allows, a gas bubble would travel from the bottom of the beer to the top, exposing much more beer to the gas, hence carbonating rapidly.

Has anyone tried this?  It would be an interesting timed experiment.

I've tried it a number of times.  It made no difference.  Yeah, it seems like it should, but it doesn't.

I wonder if the sintered stones they sell for this make any difference.  Smaller bubbles and all that.

Probably not.  But that's how they market them.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: klickitat jim on December 20, 2013, 11:06:02 PM
I don't think there are any great cheats. Unless it's filtered you still have to wait for it to settle clear.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Alewyfe on December 21, 2013, 12:33:03 AM
What about laying the keg on it's side to expose more surface area to the CO2?
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: duboman on December 21, 2013, 01:00:21 AM
So if force carbing is really what you are trying to achieve, I do this:

Set gas to serving pressure. Connect gas and when you hear it stop flowing in, disconnect, roll keg on floor for 5-10 minutes, reconnect and repeat process two to three times and then connect gas and put in kegerator.

There is no chance to over carb because you are only at serving pressure the whole time. Give the keg a day to settle in and it should be just about ready to serve
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 21, 2013, 01:04:55 AM
I like to chill the beer, then hit it with ~ 30psi for 2 days , vent slowly, then serve @ 12psi ( leave @ 12 psi. ) I do this when time is a factor, otherwise I use the old fashioned temp/pressure chart.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: euge on December 21, 2013, 01:10:37 AM
I found that the gas QD didn't like like fitting on the out post. But I was able to force it on there easily. Getting it off is another matter. Lube would help. Anyway I didn't experiment too long with this approach. However, I believe I have seen a bright-tank for sale with a co2 diffuser at the end of a long gas tube- much like an O2 stone.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: duboman on December 21, 2013, 01:24:34 AM

I like to chill the beer, then hit it with ~ 30psi for 2 days , vent slowly, then serve @ 12psi ( leave @ 12 psi. ) I do this when time is a factor, otherwise I use the old fashioned temp/pressure chart.
i used to do this but every now and then I'd get over carbonated and then have to mess with it to get it back down and it was a PITA
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: yso191 on December 21, 2013, 01:28:20 AM
I found that the gas QD didn't like like fitting on the out post. But I was able to force it on there easily. Getting it off is another matter. Lube would help. Anyway I didn't experiment too long with this approach. However, I believe I have seen a bright-tank for sale with a co2 diffuser at the end of a long gas tube- much like an O2 stone.

I was thinking about just plugging a beverage QD to the gas line.  I do that when I purge my kegs with CO2 prior to filling.

I think it will be close to carbed by Sunday anyway.  It will be 5+ days sitting at 33* and 18 psi.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 21, 2013, 01:30:07 AM

I like to chill the beer, then hit it with ~ 30psi for 2 days , vent slowly, then serve @ 12psi ( leave @ 12 psi. ) I do this when time is a factor, otherwise I use the old fashioned temp/pressure chart.
i used to do this but every now and then I'd get over carbonated and then have to mess with it to get it back down and it was a PITA
Yeah it takes a little dialing in. I keep my kegerator at ~ 45F for most beers, and usually 28-30F at that temp for 48 hours has it where I want it. But styles come into play - I definitely wouldn't carb a British style beer that way. I"m not a fan of overcarbonated beers for sure. But when I have the time (which is usually) I like the temp/pressure chart.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: denny on December 21, 2013, 05:01:10 PM
What about laying the keg on it's side to expose more surface area to the CO2?

That might work.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: klickitat jim on December 21, 2013, 05:24:26 PM
Seems like a geometry thing. Wouldn't the surface area be the same no matter what angle it was at, unless it was only half full?
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: fmader on December 21, 2013, 05:31:16 PM
Negative. The cool thing about liquid is that it takes the shape of the vessel it fills. Take a bottle of water and take a drink out of it. This will give you the head space to mimic a full keg. Take notice of the surface area... Now turn it on its side and the surface area is at least tripled.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: erockrph on December 21, 2013, 05:35:39 PM
Seems like a geometry thing. Wouldn't the surface area be the same no matter what angle it was at, unless it was only half full?

Volume, yes - surface area, no
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: klickitat jim on December 21, 2013, 05:38:25 PM
Makes sense but the closer to full the less a difference, yes?
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 21, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
What about laying the keg on it's side to expose more surface area to the CO2?

That might work.

yep - i always carb kegs on their side
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: bboy9000 on December 21, 2013, 05:57:18 PM
I do 40psi for 36 hours, testing it at 24 and 30 hours just to be sure it's not over carbonated.


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Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: yso191 on December 21, 2013, 08:28:31 PM
What is the safety rating for these ball-lock kegs?  What should be considered the 'Don't go past this PSI' level?
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: klickitat jim on December 21, 2013, 08:34:30 PM
It's a bunch, but only reliable if you have recently had them tested to that. But the relief should blow before they get that high.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 21, 2013, 08:36:17 PM
What is the safety rating for these ball-lock kegs?  What should be considered the 'Don't go past this PSI' level?

mine say 130PSI - however you really have no need to ever get near that PSI. 30-40 will do it.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: majorvices on December 21, 2013, 09:42:48 PM
This is one of those rare things I disagree with Denny about. It definitely carbs faster going through bottom post, especially if you use a higher pressure and/or shake. Also, the more head space the faster the beer will carbonate.

Nothing beats a diffusion stone though. I can carbonate a 30 bbl batch of beer in a few hours. They sell them for corny kegs. You could probably carb 5 gallons in less than 30 minutes with one.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 22, 2013, 03:29:01 AM
This is one of those rare things I disagree with Denny about. It definitely carbs faster going through bottom post, especially if you use a higher pressure and/or shake. Also, the more head space the faster the beer will carbonate.

Nothing beats a diffusion stone though. I can carbonate a 30 bbl batch of beer in a few hours. They sell them for corny kegs. You could probably carb 5 gallons in less than 30 minutes with one.

so your surface area increases when you put keg on side and roll it. having it go thru bottom post or not makes no difference i think.....its a simple formula of pressure, surface area, and temp.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: majorvices on December 22, 2013, 12:10:43 PM
This is one of those rare things I disagree with Denny about. It definitely carbs faster going through bottom post, especially if you use a higher pressure and/or shake. Also, the more head space the faster the beer will carbonate.

Nothing beats a diffusion stone though. I can carbonate a 30 bbl batch of beer in a few hours. They sell them for corny kegs. You could probably carb 5 gallons in less than 30 minutes with one.

so your surface area increases when you put keg on side and roll it. having it go thru bottom post or not makes no difference i think.....its a simple formula of pressure, surface area, and temp.

Going through bottom port at a higher pressure does make a difference IME.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 22, 2013, 02:23:41 PM
This is one of those rare things I disagree with Denny about. It definitely carbs faster going through bottom post, especially if you use a higher pressure and/or shake. Also, the more head space the faster the beer will carbonate.

Nothing beats a diffusion stone though. I can carbonate a 30 bbl batch of beer in a few hours. They sell them for corny kegs. You could probably carb 5 gallons in less than 30 minutes with one.

so your surface area increases when you put keg on side and roll it. having it go thru bottom post or not makes no difference i think.....its a simple formula of pressure, surface area, and temp.

Going through bottom port at a higher pressure does make a difference IME.

question: with the carb stone (.2 micron?) how do you go about doing that in the corny - is it open or are you attaching the stone and tubing to co2 inlet on keg?
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: majorvices on December 22, 2013, 03:42:18 PM
The carb stones for cornies that I have seen attach to the lid and have a welded QDC on lid that you can attach gas to. There are probably other options as well.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: yso191 on December 22, 2013, 03:49:07 PM
I may have to actually do this experiment.  Two side by side cornys one with gas to the gas post, the other to the beverage post.  Wait a 3-4 days, sample to see which is more carbonated.  I could do a double batch pretty easily if it was a lighter ABV beer.
Title: Re: Faster Carbonation Idea
Post by: Stevie on December 22, 2013, 04:00:58 PM

The carb stones for cornies that I have seen attach to the lid and have a welded QDC on lid that you can attach gas to. There are probably other options as well.

This or attach to the gas in dip tube using beer line.