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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on February 13, 2014, 04:11:42 PM

Title: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on February 13, 2014, 04:11:42 PM
Does anyone follow a certain guideline for what % of IBUs are acheived from the bittering addition when designing pale ales/IPAs? I normally go for 50% for some reason but was curious about others thoughts. I realize that there are numerous variables at play here regarding hop type, overall goals, etc.

For my current pale ale, my later additions are at 20 & 5 minutes with dry hop. I am cosidering pushing the additions to 10 & 0 min while increasing the bittering addtion to make up for lost IBUs. Maybe I am way off thinking anyone goes for a certain standard in this way.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: denny on February 13, 2014, 04:15:02 PM
Does anyone follow a certain guideline for what % of IBUs are acheived from the bittering addition when designing pale ales/IPAs? I normally go for 50% for some reason but was curious about others thoughts. I realize that there are numerous variables at play here regarding hop type, overall goals, etc.

For my current pale ale, my later additions are at 20 & 5 minutes with dry hop. I am cosidering pushing the additions to 10 & 0 min while increasing the bittering addtion to make up for lost IBUs. Maybe I am way off thinking anyone goes for a certain standard in this way.

I don't think of it that way, but I'd guess 80+ % come the bittering addition.  I prefer to calculate the FWH and late additions first, basing them on how much flavor and aroma I want.  Then I add enough bittering hops to get to my target IBU.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: mabrungard on February 13, 2014, 04:25:19 PM
I agree with Denny. I'm setting up a hopping schedule to produce the hop flavor and aroma (or lack of it) that I want in a beer and then altering the bittering contribution by its size or boil duration to produce the bittering level I want. Of course those flavor and aroma additions may be influencing the bittering too.

With that said, do any brewers have rules of thumb they could share with respect to the size and timing of their flavor and aroma additions in typical batches?   
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: denny on February 13, 2014, 04:28:24 PM
With that said, do any brewers have rules of thumb they could share with respect to the size and timing of their flavor and aroma additions in typical batches?

My standard hop schedule it FWH (1-2 oz.), 60, and flameout (1-4 oz.).  Of course that can vary. 
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on February 13, 2014, 04:35:56 PM
Thanks! I am really looking to simplify my additions so I do like the idea of FWH, 60, and flameout. I have enjoyed my current pale ale but there is a lot going on...
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: blatz on February 13, 2014, 10:17:27 PM
With that said, do any brewers have rules of thumb they could share with respect to the size and timing of their flavor and aroma additions in typical batches?

I do the same thing.

I brew 12gal batches - for IPA, typically 6oz flameout/whirlpool, 4-6oz at 10 min, and then back into whatever my IBU goal is by adding hops at 60min.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 14, 2014, 12:02:00 AM
For an APA with new hops this might work. Some guy named Vinnie used this for new hops.
http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2012/1616-16%20New%20Hop%20Varieties%20-Stan%20Hieronymus.pdf
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: erockrph on February 14, 2014, 03:43:10 AM
I've been moving away from this a bit lately as I try to cram more and more hop flavor into my hoppy beers, but for a while my rule of thumb had been:

APA's: ~20 IBU from FWH, no 60-minute addition, remainder in late additions
IPA's: 1/3 IBU from FWH, 1/3 from Chinook, Columbus or Nugget at 60 minutes, 1/3 from late additions.

Now I've started to move to:

APA's: ~40 IBU from FWH, 1-1.5 oz/gallon flameout hops added after wort hits ~185F, 30-minute hop stand
IPA's: ~30 IBU's from Columbus/Chinook/Nugget @60 min if I want more snap to my bitterness, otherwise no 60-minute addition, 3-4 oz/gallon at flameout as soon as all boiling activity stops, 90-minute hop stand
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: morticaixavier on February 14, 2014, 04:03:37 AM
I've been moving away from this a bit lately as I try to cram more and more hop flavor into my hoppy beers, but for a while my rule of thumb had been:

APA's: ~20 IBU from FWH, no 60-minute addition, remainder in late additions
IPA's: 1/3 IBU from FWH, 1/3 from Chinook, Columbus or Nugget at 60 minutes, 1/3 from late additions.

Now I've started to move to:

APA's: ~40 IBU from FWH, 1-1.5 oz/gallon flameout hops added after wort hits ~185F, 30-minute hop stand
IPA's: ~30 IBU's from Columbus/Chinook/Nugget @60 min if I want more snap to my bitterness, otherwise no 60-minute addition, 3-4 oz/gallon at flameout as soon as all boiling activity stops, 90-minute hop stand

you've been inspiring me lately, although not quite to your heights. I've been enjoying ~40-50 IBU FWH Cascade and simcoe and another 30 at flameout with a 45ish minute hop stand. Can't quite bring myself to go with 1.5 oz per gallon but one of these days!
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 14, 2014, 04:28:55 AM
With that said, do any brewers have rules of thumb they could share with respect to the size and timing of their flavor and aroma additions in typical batches?

My standard hop schedule it FWH (1-2 oz.), 60, and flameout (1-4 oz.).  Of course that can vary.
Funny, but I was listening to an old Brew Strong last night while brewing, and Jamil said that Denny Conn did an experiment that proves that FWH is a total waste of time. So, apparently you just like wasting your time Denny.

(I actually think JZ meant to say mash hopping not FWH. But it shows how even our brewing gods are not perfect. Nothing is true until you try it yourself)
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 14, 2014, 01:31:32 PM
I've been moving away from this a bit lately as I try to cram more and more hop flavor into my hoppy beers, but for a while my rule of thumb had been:

APA's: ~20 IBU from FWH, no 60-minute addition, remainder in late additions
IPA's: 1/3 IBU from FWH, 1/3 from Chinook, Columbus or Nugget at 60 minutes, 1/3 from late additions.

Now I've started to move to:

APA's: ~40 IBU from FWH, 1-1.5 oz/gallon flameout hops added after wort hits ~185F, 30-minute hop stand
IPA's: ~30 IBU's from Columbus/Chinook/Nugget @60 min if I want more snap to my bitterness, otherwise no 60-minute addition, 3-4 oz/gallon at flameout as soon as all boiling activity stops, 90-minute hop stand

I don't stand quite as long on IPAs - I go 45 minutes for IPA, 20 -30 minutes for APA, but otherwise I hop pretty similarly.  I've also been doing more hop bursted IPAs lately (all hops added in the last 15 minutes) - actually I'm starting to prefer them . I have one on tap now that I added 3 oz of hops each @ 15, 10, 5, and flameout. 45 minute hopstand, then 6 oz of dry hops. It's fantastic - pretty much APA bitterness with maltiness up front, followed by gigantic hop flavor and aroma. Really,really drinkable.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 14, 2014, 01:36:41 PM
In the German Pilsners I brew, I have found I like about 50% of the IBUs early in the boil and the other 50% between 30 and 10 minutes. They tend to like the hops boiled for 10 minutes to give that refined hoppiness that is popular over there.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: denny on February 14, 2014, 05:12:16 PM
Funny, but I was listening to an old Brew Strong last night while brewing, and Jamil said that Denny Conn did an experiment that proves that FWH is a total waste of time. So, apparently you just like wasting your time Denny.

(I actually think JZ meant to say mash hopping not FWH. But it shows how even our brewing gods are not perfect. Nothing is true until you try it yourself)

No, he meant FWH.  The results of the experiment were inconclusive, but JZ and I each interpreted them differently.  which is why I encourage people to experiment and find out for themselves.  Wow, if only there was a book about that kind of stuff.....:)
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: erockrph on February 14, 2014, 06:48:14 PM
Funny, but I was listening to an old Brew Strong last night while brewing, and Jamil said that Denny Conn did an experiment that proves that FWH is a total waste of time. So, apparently you just like wasting your time Denny.

(I actually think JZ meant to say mash hopping not FWH. But it shows how even our brewing gods are not perfect. Nothing is true until you try it yourself)

No, he meant FWH.  The results of the experiment were inconclusive, but JZ and I each interpreted them differently.  which is why I encourage people to experiment and find out for themselves.  Wow, if only there was a book about that kind of stuff.....:)

Hmmm... one or two of the published authors from the forums someone should write one :)
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: denny on February 14, 2014, 06:58:49 PM
Funny, but I was listening to an old Brew Strong last night while brewing, and Jamil said that Denny Conn did an experiment that proves that FWH is a total waste of time. So, apparently you just like wasting your time Denny.

(I actually think JZ meant to say mash hopping not FWH. But it shows how even our brewing gods are not perfect. Nothing is true until you try it yourself)

No, he meant FWH.  The results of the experiment were inconclusive, but JZ and I each interpreted them differently.  which is why I encourage people to experiment and find out for themselves.  Wow, if only there was a book about that kind of stuff.....:)

Hmmm... one or two of the published authors from the forums someone should write one :)

That's a damn good idea!
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: a10t2 on February 14, 2014, 09:33:47 PM
With that said, do any brewers have rules of thumb they could share with respect to the size and timing of their flavor and aroma additions in typical batches?

Typically, I target 250 g/bbl for each addition (15 min, flameout with 30 min whirlpool) in an APA, and double that in IPAs (20 min, 10 min, flameout, dry hop). My APAs are pretty much an Americanized interpretation of something like a Premium Bitter.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: michaeltrego on February 14, 2014, 10:49:04 PM
I've been moving away from this a bit lately as I try to cram more and more hop flavor into my hoppy beers, but for a while my rule of thumb had been:

APA's: ~20 IBU from FWH, no 60-minute addition, remainder in late additions
IPA's: 1/3 IBU from FWH, 1/3 from Chinook, Columbus or Nugget at 60 minutes, 1/3 from late additions.

Now I've started to move to:

APA's: ~40 IBU from FWH, 1-1.5 oz/gallon flameout hops added after wort hits ~185F, 30-minute hop stand
IPA's: ~30 IBU's from Columbus/Chinook/Nugget @60 min if I want more snap to my bitterness, otherwise no 60-minute addition, 3-4 oz/gallon at flameout as soon as all boiling activity stops, 90-minute hop stand

Just curious, what formula do you use for FWH IBU?  I currently have ProMash set to calc FWH as -50% utilization, which is effectively the same IBU as a 15 min addition.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: morticaixavier on February 14, 2014, 11:19:56 PM
I've been moving away from this a bit lately as I try to cram more and more hop flavor into my hoppy beers, but for a while my rule of thumb had been:

APA's: ~20 IBU from FWH, no 60-minute addition, remainder in late additions
IPA's: 1/3 IBU from FWH, 1/3 from Chinook, Columbus or Nugget at 60 minutes, 1/3 from late additions.

Now I've started to move to:

APA's: ~40 IBU from FWH, 1-1.5 oz/gallon flameout hops added after wort hits ~185F, 30-minute hop stand
IPA's: ~30 IBU's from Columbus/Chinook/Nugget @60 min if I want more snap to my bitterness, otherwise no 60-minute addition, 3-4 oz/gallon at flameout as soon as all boiling activity stops, 90-minute hop stand

Just curious, what formula do you use for FWH IBU?  I currently have ProMash set to calc FWH as -50% utilization, which is effectively the same IBU as a 15 min addition.

I used to calculate it as a 20 minute addition but then I did a blind tasting of the same beer hopped at 60 or FWH and the FWH was noticably more bitter. now I use the 60 minute + 20%
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: ranchovillabrew on February 14, 2014, 11:26:55 PM
Beersmith has a setting for fwh. I think it's close to what mort said.  I've started using fwh and it is a smoother bitterness.  But definitely more perceived bitterness

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: euge on February 15, 2014, 03:08:27 AM
I have absolutely no nose for hops and they nearly all smell the same. I'm at least two thirds bittering hops then it's a flavor addition or two. Last batch though I did a Fuggles FWH @180 for 30 minutes. Haven't done a FWH in years. Hoping for the goodness I fondly remember

Try doing a single 50bu bittering charge @30 minutes of a high alpha like chinook or columbus. A great approach to allergy season.

Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: erockrph on February 15, 2014, 01:03:59 PM
Just curious, what formula do you use for FWH IBU?  I currently have ProMash set to calc FWH as -50% utilization, which is effectively the same IBU as a 15 min addition.

Currently, I treat it like a 20 minute addition. This is what Brewer's Friend calculates it as, so that's convenient for me.

But I'm starting to waffle a bit on this. There is definitely a difference between "amount" and "quality" of bitterness. A FWH or hopstand addition definitely has a smoother quality to the bitterness, and that is why treating FWH as a 20-minute addition makes sense. But the amount of bitterness is still there. In the end I think you're better off thinking in the mindset of "X IBU's from a FWH plus Y IBU's from a bittering addition plus Z IBU's from my finishing hops are going to give me what I'm looking for in this beer", because they're not all equivalent. Simply adding together the IBU's from all your additions isn't necessarily going to give you the same results.

Here's what really cemented my thinking on this: I brewed an IPA over the summer using nothing but flameout hops with a long hopstand and dry hops. I sent it to a lab and it measured 98 IBU's. It only tasted like 60 IBU's to me, and it was a really smooth bitterness (similar to what I get from FWH). It was super drinkable, like an amped up APA. But I typically drink beer at the end of the night (i.e., not with a meal). The first time I had one of these IPA's with food I instantly tasted every one of those 98 IBU's. It was a bizarre experience. So, while the bitterness was far from enamel-stripping, it still totally blew out my palate for food. My new philosophy is "Not all IBU's are created equal".
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: michaeltrego on February 15, 2014, 03:11:08 PM
I have absolutely no nose for hops and they nearly all smell the same.

That's sad.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: michaeltrego on February 15, 2014, 03:26:28 PM
I used to calculate it as a 20 minute addition but then I did a blind tasting of the same beer hopped at 60 or FWH and the FWH was noticably more bitter. now I use the 60 minute + 20%

My new philosophy is "Not all IBU's are created equal".

I would like to do a side by side comparison at some point to calibrate my perceptions.
Title: Re: % of IBUs from bittering addition?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 15, 2014, 03:27:45 PM
I used to measure FWH as a 20 minute addition too, but I perceive it as higher than that, too. I've made a lot of beers with just FWH and finishing hops that were plenty bitter for my taste. I calculate it as a 60 minute.