Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: phytenphyre on February 27, 2014, 01:20:06 AM

Title: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: phytenphyre on February 27, 2014, 01:20:06 AM
This batch was going great...until...I checked fermentation 2 weeks in (at 62F in my fermentation chamber using s-04) and still had a reading of 1.032 (it started at 1.062)!!  What?  This couldn't be. I raised the temp to 68F and waited 2 more weeks and it was exactly 1.032.

I thought it was done. I started to cold crash it and was going to bottle it in a few days with half the priming sugar so I didn't make a whole lot of bottle bombs.

I headed to my LHBS and told them what was going on. The guy says (in a nutshell), "Whoa, you don't want to do that, it's way too high. Go home warm it up and pitch two more packs to see if you can restart the fermentation." 

I went home and went to go change my temperature controller, opened up the freezer, and saw I had forgotten to remove the blow off tube! There sat a half empty growler of star san and a carboy with about a half gallon more liquid inside it's belly.

Ahhhhhhhhh crud!! 

I've come this far we'll just see where it goes from here. Re-checked gravity...as expected, exactly 1.032. I warmed it up and pitched both packs of S-04 and waited a week.

Not a single bubble in now what is a simple air lock. Re-re-checked gravity, guess what?  1.032 on the nose.

Just so happens I was reading through the forums the other day when I came across an interesting thread. As I read and scrolled, read and scrolled I came across a post that grabbed my attention. I read the first line.  I'm sure you heard the smack around the world as one said hand hit one said head. Refractometers don't take accurate readings when there is alcohol present in one said carboy of what was supposed to be a Zombie Dust clone.

AAHHHHHHH DOUBLE CRUD x2!!!!

I, literally, just took a gravity with my HYDROMETER and it's...wait for it...wait for it... 1.010. And now it has an extra half gallon of star san and O2 as I swished and swirled that carboy every couple of hours after I re-pitched two packs of S-04, AND has now been sitting at basement temps for the past week or so.

I was so excited and now so bummed. It was going to be really good...I just knew it.

To all of you whom made it this far in my sob story, what would you do with the "extra love" I added to my beer?  Pitch or bottle with the star san (it's actually the low foam stuff and can't remember the a actual name). Have any of you done the same thing?  What did you do?  If you bottled, was it worth the effort and time?  Should I just re-brew the batch and start from scratch?  Drinkable or not, that is the question?

One said brewer,
Kyle
Title: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: In The Sand on February 27, 2014, 01:24:26 AM
Can't figure out how to do the emoticon laughing with tears, but that is a nice funny story. I know it wasn't funny to you. Chalk it up to experience and look at it this way: you get to brew more beer.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: garc_mall on February 27, 2014, 01:25:11 AM
Have you tried drinking it?

I don't know if the starsan will add its flavor to the beer. I would certainly taste it before you dump it.

Other than Star-san, I don't think anything else you did will affect the flavor too much.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: Pinski on February 27, 2014, 01:38:35 AM
Several hard learned lessons there my friend. They're only mistakes if you don't learn from them.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: ajk on February 27, 2014, 02:03:19 AM
Chill it down and see if the StarSan stratifies on top of the beer. Then carefully rack the beer out from under the StarSan. Even if that doesn't work, definitely taste it. And if it's any good, drink it!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: phytenphyre on February 27, 2014, 02:26:34 AM
Ah yes, mistakes and experience!!  Gotta love 'em, I just wish they didn't cost so much money!! 

I did taste the hydro sample. It wasn't awful, but obviously it's not exactly what I was shooting for.

Unfortunately, I have another beer fermenting now so there is no real good way of chilling this one down.

I guess the million dollar question is with the starsan actually in the beer and how many people am I going to kill by having them drink this stuff??  Is it safe??  That is what I truly need to know. If there is any possibility of if not, I'll dump it and chalk it up to "experience" and put it on my "do-over" list...that I just made...right now.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: Stevie on February 27, 2014, 02:36:53 AM
I have heard that star san at working dilution is safe to drink as is. Research it or ask five star.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: narvin on February 27, 2014, 02:38:00 AM
I wouldn't drink anything with that much Star San.  They advertise it as no-rise up to a 300ppm concentration only.  In fact, their old MSDS listed that it was 10% Isopropyl alcohol.  That's no longer listed, but other ingredients are not shown and simply marked as "trade secrets".

http://www.jstrack.org/brewing/msds/starsan.pdf

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanMSDS1.pdf
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: majorvices on February 27, 2014, 02:43:28 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't drink it if it had star san in it. I mean, it's supposed to be safe but .... man, have you ever gotten star san in your mouth? It literally hurts your teeth. Seriously.

I know it hurts (and was a great story. Sorry for your loss but thanks for the laugh! ;) ) but just know we have all been there. Once I was shaking a carboy full of precious barley wine that I had spent 8 hours brewing and the carboy slipped and shattered all over my garage. That's just one of the many stories of lost batches of beer. I've made numerous beer water falls down my drive way. It always sucks, but I've always been eager to get back to the next batch.

Chalk it up as learning and move on to the next one! 8)
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: narvin on February 27, 2014, 03:06:20 AM
I finished up a batch of Belgian strong dark and carried all 10 gallons just far enough to get into my kitchen before dropping it.  The lid blew off the bucket and a tidal wave engulfed the wall, fridge, cabinets , everything.  Another time I walked away from bottling and the springy tip on the bottling wand failed and half of the beer drained... Down the sink.  Beer is a cruel mistress.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 27, 2014, 03:15:03 AM
I've gagged down a homebrew or two. Some commercial ones too. Life's too short. I've learned to dump and redo.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: Stevie on February 27, 2014, 03:18:28 AM
The inventor of Star San was interviewed on Basic Brewing years ago. I think this is where I heard it is safe. Email five star before dumping or listening to me. I'm sure they will give you some legalese filled answer.

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/3/9/0/390da96899933961/bbr03-29-07.mp3
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: majorvices on February 27, 2014, 03:25:28 AM
The inventor of Star San was interviewed on Basic Brewing years ago. I think this is where I heard it is safe. Email five star before dumping or listening to me. I'm sure they will give you some legalese filled answer.

http://ec.libsyn.com/p/3/9/0/390da96899933961/bbr03-29-07.mp3

I remember that. I remember he said he would drink it diluted to sanitation strength. But have you ever gotten it in your mouth? Feels like it is eating your teeth away. Try it sometime. Actually, it's not something I would recommend, unless you feel like stripping the enamel off your teeth.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: troybinso on February 27, 2014, 04:16:09 AM
Star san or Saniclean diluted to sanitation strength is pretty intense, but diluted into a carboy full of beer should be unnoticeable. I say taste it and carbonate it.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 27, 2014, 05:48:41 AM
So... if I run out of Pepsodent I should try StarSan? How does PBW or Oxyclean feel on your teeth?
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: euge on February 27, 2014, 05:52:37 AM
Doesn't sound like a great idea.

C'mon it's only beer. Make some more.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: majorvices on February 27, 2014, 12:05:26 PM
So... if I run out of Pepsodent I should try StarSan? How does PBW or Oxyclean feel on your teeth?

Not sure. I've never sucked on a siphon hose with PBW or oxiclean! But I bet they would both do= wonders on your dentures!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: udubdawg on February 27, 2014, 01:46:44 PM
I've drank StarSan solution.  (some who know me are nodding with an "ah, that explains it!)   ;D

I would taste it and short of a flavor experience that makes you hear angels sing, I'd dump it and try again.  Life's too short to drink bad beer.

Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: darwin18 on February 27, 2014, 02:15:12 PM
I made a similar mistake last year with an American Premium Pilsner.  The starsan solution separated from the beer in a discernible layer and I just transferred the beer under that layer to the keg.  It tasted okay but not great.  Lesson learned. 
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: kramerog on February 27, 2014, 03:07:03 PM
Diluted starsan is less acidic than coca-cola IIRC.  I would at least try a taste and spit.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: dls5492 on February 27, 2014, 08:16:30 PM
phytenphyre,
When you get the opportunity to teach younger brewers, which you will, you now have a story to tell. They will get a good laugh and a lesson learned that they didn't have to learn the hard way. Brew some more and have fun. It's only beer.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: Jimmy K on February 27, 2014, 08:43:54 PM
Diluted starsan is less acidic than coca-cola IIRC.  I would at least try a taste and spit.
I thought you were crazy, but not so. Coca Cola has a pH of 2.8, Star-san is 'effective below 3.0' and both are phosphoric acid based.  The surfactants in Star San may be more responsible for mouth sensations.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: Pinski on February 27, 2014, 08:45:05 PM
I had a three-piece air lock backflow into the fermenter once. Only a few ounces but I could definitely taste it and the beer ended up a bit hazy compared to previous bright versions. Now I only use S type air locks when I'm crashing.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: dkfick on February 27, 2014, 08:46:30 PM
I would try it... Star san has a low pH... but mixed in the the beer I doubt it lowered teh pH of the beer that much... if it tastes ok I say go with it.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: SiameseMoose on February 27, 2014, 08:47:13 PM
I once pumped 10 gallons of fresh wort (double IPA) into my conical, and a day later realized that I hadn't dumped the 1+ gallon of Star San that was in it. It came out fine! Taste it and then decide.

We learn from our mistakes. I'm making as many mistakes as I can as fast as I can. Pretty soon I'll be a genius!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 27, 2014, 08:48:41 PM
I had a three-piece air lock backflow into the fermenter once. Only a few ounces but I could definitely taste it and the beer ended up a bit hazy compared to previous bright versions. Now I only use S type air locks when I'm crashing.

Been there, done that ! I use S-locks for crashing now, if I don't crash in keg.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: jeffy on February 27, 2014, 10:21:07 PM
We learn from our mistakes. I'm making as many mistakes as I can as fast as I can. Pretty soon I'll be a genius!

Nice attitude!  I'm right there with ya!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: bigchicken on February 27, 2014, 10:36:38 PM

 Pitch or bottle with the star san (it's actually the low foam stuff and can't remember the a actual name).


You said this is not actually Star San but instead a low foam type. Is it still made by Five Star? Drinking diluted Star San is one thing, but what you used may be a different animal.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: phytenphyre on February 27, 2014, 11:00:44 PM
It's Saniclean from five star.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: morticaixavier on February 27, 2014, 11:18:42 PM
this is NOT a no rinse product according to the 5 Star website. I would NOT drink the beer.

" SAFETY
 
DANGER: Corrosive to skin and eye, contains Phosphoric Acid. Harmful if swallowed. Do not
get in eyes, on skin or on clothing. Wear protective goggles and clothing when using. Avoid
contamination of food. DO NOT MIX SANICLEAN with chlorinated cleaners as chlorine gas
will result. See Label for more precautionary information. Contains Phosphoric Acid. A known
corrosive.
 
FIRST AID:
For Eyes: Hold eyes open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15-20 minutes. Remove
contact lenses, if present, after the first five minutes. Then continue rinsing. Call Poison
Control Center or doctor for treatment advice.
If Swallowed: Call Poison Control Center or doctor immediately for treatment advice. Have
person sip on a glass of water if able to swallow. Do not induce vomiting unless told to do so
by the Poison Control doctor. Do not give anything to an unconscious person.
If on Skin or Clothing: Take off contaminated clothing. Rinse skin immediately with plenty of
water for 15-20 minutes. Call Poison Control Center for treatment advice.
If Inhaled: Move person to fresh air. If person is not breathing call 911 or an ambulance, then
give artificial respiration, preferably mouth-to-mouth if possible. Call a Poison Control Center
or doctor for treatment.
NOTE TO PHYSICIAN: Probable mucosal damage may contraindicate the use of gastric
lavage. Measure against circulatory shock, respiratory depression and convulsion may be
needed. "
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: euge on February 27, 2014, 11:20:16 PM
Sounds like fun!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: phytenphyre on February 28, 2014, 03:02:12 AM
'Nuff said
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: phytenphyre on February 28, 2014, 03:02:28 AM
Thanks everyone
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 28, 2014, 03:04:50 AM
Lesson learned, but agreed - just make more!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: kramerog on February 28, 2014, 02:09:43 PM
I had a three-piece air lock backflow into the fermenter once. Only a few ounces but I could definitely taste it and the beer ended up a bit hazy compared to previous bright versions. Now I only use S type air locks when I'm crashing.

I get that sometimes!

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: phytenphyre on February 28, 2014, 02:16:56 PM
Well, after many hours of contemplation and tears, I have decided to let my sink enjoy the fruit of my spoils.  It is bittersweet; ZD clone, you will be missed.  You will be missed dearly, my unconsumed friend.  Cheers and tears.

C A U T I O N
Let all those who read this tremble, take heed!!! REMOVE THUS BLOW OFF TUBE before thy crash with coldness.  Be swift in one's actions to hide thy refractometer when thusly said wort morphs into the golden goodness of the glorious adult beverage of one said beer.  Join me and raise a glass, my friends. Shed a tear and move on to the next adventure, there is always another brew day upon the horizon.  Cheers!!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: morticaixavier on February 28, 2014, 03:31:53 PM
CRASH!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: denny on February 28, 2014, 04:27:15 PM
this is NOT a no rinse product according to the 5 Star website. I would NOT drink the beer.

" SAFETY
 
DANGER: Corrosive to skin and eye, contains Phosphoric Acid. Harmful if swallowed. Do not
get in eyes, on skin or on clothing. Wear protective goggles and clothing when using. Avoid
contamination of food. DO NOT MIX SANICLEAN with chlorinated cleaners as chlorine gas
will result. See Label for more precautionary information. Contains Phosphoric Acid. A known
corrosive.
 
FIRST AID:
For Eyes: Hold eyes open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15-20 minutes. Remove
contact lenses, if present, after the first five minutes. Then continue rinsing. Call Poison
Control Center or doctor for treatment advice.
If Swallowed: Call Poison Control Center or doctor immediately for treatment advice. Have
person sip on a glass of water if able to swallow. Do not induce vomiting unless told to do so
by the Poison Control doctor. Do not give anything to an unconscious person.
If on Skin or Clothing: Take off contaminated clothing. Rinse skin immediately with plenty of
water for 15-20 minutes. Call Poison Control Center for treatment advice.
If Inhaled: Move person to fresh air. If person is not breathing call 911 or an ambulance, then
give artificial respiration, preferably mouth-to-mouth if possible. Call a Poison Control Center
or doctor for treatment.
NOTE TO PHYSICIAN: Probable mucosal damage may contraindicate the use of gastric
lavage. Measure against circulatory shock, respiratory depression and convulsion may be
needed. "

I'm pretty sure that applies to undiluted StarSan or Saniclean.  When it's diluted to working strength it's a different story.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: morticaixavier on February 28, 2014, 04:28:23 PM
this is NOT a no rinse product according to the 5 Star website. I would NOT drink the beer.

" SAFETY
 
DANGER: Corrosive to skin and eye, contains Phosphoric Acid. Harmful if swallowed. Do not
get in eyes, on skin or on clothing. Wear protective goggles and clothing when using. Avoid
contamination of food. DO NOT MIX SANICLEAN with chlorinated cleaners as chlorine gas
will result. See Label for more precautionary information. Contains Phosphoric Acid. A known
corrosive.
 
FIRST AID:
For Eyes: Hold eyes open and rinse slowly and gently with water for 15-20 minutes. Remove
contact lenses, if present, after the first five minutes. Then continue rinsing. Call Poison
Control Center or doctor for treatment advice.
If Swallowed: Call Poison Control Center or doctor immediately for treatment advice. Have
person sip on a glass of water if able to swallow. Do not induce vomiting unless told to do so
by the Poison Control doctor. Do not give anything to an unconscious person.
If on Skin or Clothing: Take off contaminated clothing. Rinse skin immediately with plenty of
water for 15-20 minutes. Call Poison Control Center for treatment advice.
If Inhaled: Move person to fresh air. If person is not breathing call 911 or an ambulance, then
give artificial respiration, preferably mouth-to-mouth if possible. Call a Poison Control Center
or doctor for treatment.
NOTE TO PHYSICIAN: Probable mucosal damage may contraindicate the use of gastric
lavage. Measure against circulatory shock, respiratory depression and convulsion may be
needed. "

I'm pretty sure that applies to undiluted StarSan or Saniclean.  When it's diluted to working strength it's a different story.

I suspect you are correct, but it also mentions elsewhere in the document that you should rinse with potable water AFTER using saniclean
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: denny on February 28, 2014, 04:31:31 PM
According to this http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/saniclean.html, no rinse is required at the concentration we use.  I'll see if I can find something more definitive.

ETA:  just emailed Five Star to ask them.  We can guess til we're blue in the face, but they know!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: morticaixavier on February 28, 2014, 04:39:16 PM
According to this http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/saniclean.html, no rinse is required at the concentration we use.  I'll see if I can find something more definitive.

ETA:  just emailed Five Star to ask them.  We can guess til we're blue in the face, but they know!

good call. for reference, here is the document I was quoteing:

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/SanicleanTech1.pdf (http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/SanicleanTech1.pdf)

under general use directions is where they specify a potable water rinse after use.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: denny on February 28, 2014, 04:42:35 PM
According to this http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/saniclean.html, no rinse is required at the concentration we use.  I'll see if I can find something more definitive.

ETA:  just emailed Five Star to ask them.  We can guess til we're blue in the face, but they know!

good call. for reference, here is the document I was quoteing:

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/SanicleanTech1.pdf (http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/SanicleanTech1.pdf)

under general use directions is where they specify a potable water rinse after use.

Saw that.  But if you look at the recommended concentration it's about twice what we usually use.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: denny on February 28, 2014, 05:01:20 PM
And the word from Five Star.....

"When used properly saniclean is a no rinse final application.  To test its effectiveness you can test the PH as long as it’s 3.5 or below it will do as it’s intended.  When saniclean is used at a higher than recommended rate it will go over 200 PPM and that is when it needs to be rinsed with potable water."

So, as long as it's mixed properly, it's no different than StarSan.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: phytenphyre on February 28, 2014, 05:10:48 PM
And the word from Five Star.....

"When used properly saniclean is a no rinse final application.  To test its effectiveness you can test the PH as long as it’s 3.5 or below it will do as it’s intended.  When saniclean is used at a higher than recommended rate it will go over 200 PPM and that is when it needs to be rinsed with potable water."

So, as long as it's mixed properly, it's no different than StarSan.

Thank you for your time and efforts, they are much appreciated!!
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: denny on February 28, 2014, 05:22:46 PM

Thank you for your time and efforts, they are much appreciated!!

You're very welcome...it's what I do!  I'm all about trying to make sure homebrewers have accurate info and myths get debunked.
Title: Re: Cold crash fail! One ruined beer! One dumb home brewer?
Post by: Jimmy K on February 28, 2014, 07:02:15 PM

Thank you for your time and efforts, they are much appreciated!!

You're very welcome...it's what I do!  I'm all about trying to make sure homebrewers have accurate info and myths get debunked.
I noticed that the bottle label (with the lower rate) says air dry, but local regulations may require a water rinse.