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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: S. cerevisiae on February 27, 2014, 09:10:21 PM

Title: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 27, 2014, 09:10:21 PM
I just realized that the beers that I entered into a local competition are going to be disqualified because I taped the labels onto the bottles.  To add insult to injury, I used clear packing tape to tape the labels onto the bottles, which means that it is going to take some effort to remove them from the bottles.  If my entries are disqualified for having taped-on labels, I hope that the club hosting the competition will allow me to claim my entries.  I would like to have the opportunity to remove the labels and enter the beers in another competition. 
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: theDarkSide on February 27, 2014, 09:14:40 PM
Did they send you notice that they are going to be disqualified or are you just assuming?  That's sucks but I've never run or participated in a competition so I'm sure there are good reasons for using rubberbands and not tape. 

I also hear a lot of comp people say they hate when people use peanuts.  I can agree there...I hate those stupid things.

Good luck with this comp or getting you entries back for a different one.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: AmandaK on February 27, 2014, 09:16:17 PM
This sounds like an assumption.

As someone who runs competitions and goes through bottle check in, I will assure you that you will be cursed and grumbled at. But it is unlikely that you will be disqualified.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: udubdawg on February 27, 2014, 09:17:01 PM
you should contact the organizer and offer apologies.  People are generally pretty nice.  (stuff) happens.  Someone is always entering their first competition and it happens more than you think.  I suspect the organizing crew will curse you out a bit and do whatever they can to remove the labels.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: duboman on February 27, 2014, 09:31:39 PM

This sounds like an assumption.

As someone who runs competitions and goes through bottle check in, I will assure you that you will be cursed and grumbled at. But it is unlikely that you will be disqualified.
As one who was a steward at a local comp I can tell you that yes, we cursed but didn't disqualify the entries but check in with them anyways to be sure:) good luck!
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: erockrph on February 27, 2014, 09:42:36 PM
you should contact the organizer and offer apologies.  People are generally pretty nice.  (stuff) happens.  Someone is always entering their first competition and it happens more than you think.  I suspect the organizing crew will curse you out a bit and do whatever they can to remove the labels.

+1 - An apology up front will definitely be appreciated and certainly wouldn't hurt your cause.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: Jimmy K on February 27, 2014, 09:51:45 PM
I have a special voodoo doll for entries like yours, but I've never disqualified one.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 27, 2014, 09:54:46 PM
I have a special voodoo doll for entries like yours, but I've never disqualified one.

That's funny !   If he has any phantom pains after the comp, I guess he'll understand.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 27, 2014, 09:56:55 PM
I hope that everyone is right.  The directions clearly stated that entry forms were to be attached using rubber bands, which is how I attached my entry forms.  However, the bottle labeling directions were not clear (i.e., there was no mention of how they were supposed to be attached). 

Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: dmtaylor on February 27, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
I bet you'll be just fine.  They'll grumble but they'll judge 'em anyway.  You live, you learn.  You forgive, you forget.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 27, 2014, 10:17:22 PM
I am not a hyper competitive person.  I pretty much avoided amateur-level brewing competitions during the decade that I brewed before taking almost an eleven-year hiatus from the hobby.   I only entered one contest during that period of time, and that contest was held in 1998.  I decided to enter this contest because I wanted to get more involved with the local brewing community. 
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: dkfick on February 27, 2014, 10:59:19 PM
Yeah you'll likely be fine.  Not that many entries actually get disqualified from competitions.  They just say that you can/will be to ensure you follow the rules.  Rules are there to make life easier for all the volunteers. 
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: duboman on February 27, 2014, 11:05:40 PM
Stuff like this happens even to those that regularly enter

I just recently shipped off beers to a local comp and got an email a few days later saying I broke the rules by entering two beers in one category, clearly stated as a NO in the rules:( no biggie, through a suggestion from the coordinator another category was recommended for one that fit another style well so he facilitated the switch for me...easy deal!
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 27, 2014, 11:42:42 PM
I have a special voodoo doll for entries like yours, but I've never disqualified one.

That's funny !   If he has any phantom pains after the comp, I guess he'll understand.

Should've added - I only laugh because I've been there . Sorry.  I taped my labels on in my first comp despite very clear directions to not do so, out of excitement, ignorance or some of both ! I didn't get disqualified, and paid a little better attention after.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: udubdawg on February 27, 2014, 11:56:12 PM
also, when the OP wins a medal, expect to hear "I nearly had to use a chainsaw to get that guy's label off the bottle; he owes me a beer!"  ;)


Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 28, 2014, 02:17:08 AM
Both of my entries are borderline within their style categories. 
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 28, 2014, 02:32:12 AM
Just noticed the obliterate requirement on the caps!  Thankfully.  My caps are the simple Brewers Best so they have a big B on them....
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: Stevie on February 28, 2014, 02:43:46 AM
I have caps from a brewery. I need to get a good marker.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: klickitat jim on February 28, 2014, 03:08:25 AM
I wonder if anyone has ever entered a category 1 in a Sam Adams bottle with a blotted out Sam Adams cap? Would really make you wonder huh? Especially if it was like a 49 point beer...
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 28, 2014, 12:24:37 PM
With no sediment, it would probably get dinged for oxidation..... :P
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: duboman on February 28, 2014, 01:31:20 PM

I wonder if anyone has ever entered a category 1 in a Sam Adams bottle with a blotted out Sam Adams cap? Would really make you wonder huh? Especially if it was like a 49 point beer...
i always wondered if anyone has ever simply removed the label off a commercial beer like Sierra, re-capped and entered it as their own
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: dkfick on February 28, 2014, 01:33:55 PM
It's always possible that someone could do it.  Basically works on the honor system.  For the most part there are not big stakes so cheating would get you very little... I guess if you were really insecure you might get respect from your peers (but for beer you didn't brew so who cares?)
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: theDarkSide on February 28, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
I am not a hyper competitive person. 
It's funny but I've never seen beer competitions as competitive against other brewers.  I am always happy for the people who win.

Unless udubdawg and I have a cider going against each other in the finals...then I hope to crush him!!!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 28, 2014, 02:18:21 PM
I wonder if anyone has ever entered a category 1 in a Sam Adams bottle with a blotted out Sam Adams cap? Would really make you wonder huh? Especially if it was like a 49 point beer...
The Boston Lager would get dinged as being out of style in cat 1.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: AmandaK on February 28, 2014, 02:29:48 PM

I wonder if anyone has ever entered a category 1 in a Sam Adams bottle with a blotted out Sam Adams cap? Would really make you wonder huh? Especially if it was like a 49 point beer...
i always wondered if anyone has ever simply removed the label off a commercial beer like Sierra, re-capped and entered it as their own

That has happened. I believe it was at the Indians State Fair Brewer's Cup? The entrant was banned for a year, or life? I can't remember.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: udubdawg on February 28, 2014, 02:38:23 PM
I am not a hyper competitive person. 
It's funny but I've never seen beer competitions as competitive against other brewers.  I am always happy for the people who win.

Unless udubdawg and I have a cider going against each other in the finals...then I hope to crush him!!!  ;) ;D

"hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things..."

...I hope I don't trip when I wave at theDarkSide from the stage.    8)
(with a limit of 4 entries, at least we know Jeff Carlson competing on his home turf can't win them ALL!)
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: Jimmy K on February 28, 2014, 02:42:23 PM
That has happened. I believe it was at the Indians State Fair Brewer's Cup? The entrant was banned for a year, or life? I can't remember.
I know a guy who moved here from Indiana. He said they figured it out because the entrant just blacked out the breweries cap with marker. It's hearsay, but I'd want to be damn sure to sanction someone for that. I guess they could taste it next to the 'real' beer. The cap/bottle type might be decent evidence.
 
I doubt it happens much, maybe a little in competitions with good prizes. Still, a commercial beer will score well - especially a fresh version of a classic style - but I don't think it would be a slam dunk every time.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: Stevie on February 28, 2014, 02:50:35 PM
Cap is not good evidence cheating. I have 500 or so caps from a fairly well known Northern California brewery. I don't like to waste, so I will use them up before I buy new ones. Sure, I could buy caps specific for comps, but I don't always know if or what will be submitted.

When I started brewing overrun caps were the normal at the LHBS. Is this no longer the case?
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 28, 2014, 03:27:20 PM
The Boston Lager would get dinged as being out of style in cat 1.

Having to fit cleanly into a style is the main reason why I have avoided beer competitions like the plague. Boston Lager is one of the beers that got me interested in brewing. The other beer was another contract brew called Old Heurich.

Speaking of contract brews, I remember when Boston Beer was drawing a lot of fire from the amateur brewing community in the nineties for pretending to be a "real deal" microbrewer (Boston Lager was brewed by the Pittsburgh Brewing Company at that point in time).  How did Jim Koch curry favor with the amateur brewing community?  He co-opted it by making a portion Boston Beer's supply of Halltertau Mittlefreuh available to the amateur brewing community and sponsoring Boston Beer's own national-level amateur brewing contest.  I do not recall how much I paid for my Halltertau Mittlefreuh pellets, but I do recall that is was a relatively good deal at the time.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: reverseapachemaster on February 28, 2014, 03:27:44 PM
Cap is not good evidence cheating. I have 500 or so caps from a fairly well known Northern California brewery. I don't like to waste, so I will use them up before I buy new ones. Sure, I could buy caps specific for comps, but I don't always know if or what will be submitted.

When I started brewing overrun caps were the normal at the LHBS. Is this no longer the case?

I am no expert in competitions but the few I have looked at all require unmarked caps to avoid that problem.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: morticaixavier on February 28, 2014, 03:39:58 PM
Cap is not good evidence cheating. I have 500 or so caps from a fairly well known Northern California brewery. I don't like to waste, so I will use them up before I buy new ones. Sure, I could buy caps specific for comps, but I don't always know if or what will be submitted.

When I started brewing overrun caps were the normal at the LHBS. Is this no longer the case?

I am no expert in competitions but the few I have looked at all require unmarked caps to avoid that problem.

unmarked or with any identifying characters blacked out.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 28, 2014, 04:13:46 PM
The Boston Lager would get dinged as being out of style in cat 1.

Having to fit cleanly into a style the main reason why I have avoided beer competitions like the plague. Boston Lager is one of the beers that got me interested in brewing. The other beer was another contract brew called Old Heurich.

Speaking of contract brews, I remember when Boston Beer was drawing a lot of fire from the amateur brewing community in the nineties for pretending to be a "real deal" microbrewer (Boston Lager was brewed by the Pittsburgh Brewing Company at that point in time).  How did Jim Koch curry favor with the amateur brewing community?  He co-opted it by making a portion Boston Beer's supply of Halltertau Mittlefreuh available to the amateur brewing community and sponsoring Boston Beer's own national-level amateur brewing contest.  I do not recall how much I paid for my Halltertau Mittlefreuh pellets, but I do recall that is was a relatively good deal at the time.
They also got criticized by the other craft brewers. They brewed at several breweries, Pittsburg PA, Rochester NY, Eden NC, Portland OR all appeared on the labels. They now own breweries in Cincinnati and in the Lehigh Valley.

The Longshot competition also includes the Homebrewers. Jim Koch was the keynote speaker at the 2008 NHC in Cincinnatti.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: duboman on February 28, 2014, 04:52:32 PM

Cap is not good evidence cheating. I have 500 or so caps from a fairly well known Northern California brewery. I don't like to waste, so I will use them up before I buy new ones. Sure, I could buy caps specific for comps, but I don't always know if or what will be submitted.

When I started brewing overrun caps were the normal at the LHBS. Is this no longer the case?

I am no expert in competitions but the few I have looked at all require unmarked caps to avoid that problem.
thats why I mentioned recapping but I'm glad to know that if it did happen the entrant was sanctioned.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: Jimmy K on February 28, 2014, 04:58:16 PM
Cap is not good evidence cheating.
Certainly not. It might be a piece of the puzzle, but I don't think anybody would suspect an entry just because of the cap.
 
If I really suspected an entry, it would have to be an identical beer in an identical bottle with the brewery cap. Even then, I'd probably ask a brewery lab to do some analytics on the entry and commercial example. And honestly, it would have to be really egregious for most organizers to go to that effort. I'd rather 10 cheaters get though than wrongfully accuse a homebrewer.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: johnf on February 28, 2014, 04:59:53 PM
I wonder if anyone has ever entered a category 1 in a Sam Adams bottle with a blotted out Sam Adams cap? Would really make you wonder huh? Especially if it was like a 49 point beer...
The Boston Lager would get dinged as being out of style in cat 1.

As would Sam Adams Light, which is essentially Boston Lager Light, but it is humorously listed as a commercial example in 1A.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 28, 2014, 05:06:04 PM
I wonder if anyone has ever entered a category 1 in a Sam Adams bottle with a blotted out Sam Adams cap? Would really make you wonder huh? Especially if it was like a 49 point beer...
The Boston Lager would get dinged as being out of style in cat 1.

As would Sam Adams Light, which is essentially Boston Lager Light, but it is humorously listed as a commercial example in 1A.
Yeah, that would work.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: Jimmy K on February 28, 2014, 05:15:17 PM
I think the other aspect is that there's fallacy in assuming that a commercial beer, even a classic style example, would automatically win. Condition makes a difference, the commercial beer may not be at peak flavor, and commercial brewers make sacrifices for production reasons that homebrewers don't always have to. It may be a good example and would score well, but it's probably not a perfect example.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 28, 2014, 07:56:36 PM
They also got criticized by the other craft brewers. They brewed at several breweries, Pittsburg PA, Rochester NY, Eden NC, Portland OR all appeared on the labels. They now own breweries in Cincinnati and in the Lehigh Valley.

The Longshot competition also includes the Homebrewers. Jim Koch was the keynote speaker at the 2008 NHC in Cincinnatti.


Boston Beer's Lehigh Valley brewery is the old F. & M. Schaefer brewery near Allentown.  Ownership of that brewery was a revolving door. 

By the way, a homebrewer is an amateur brewer.  The major difference between an advanced homebrewer and a professional brewer is that a professional brewer receives compensation for his/her work.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 28, 2014, 08:26:10 PM
They also got criticized by the other craft brewers. They brewed at several breweries, Pittsburg PA, Rochester NY, Eden NC, Portland OR all appeared on the labels. They now own breweries in Cincinnati and in the Lehigh Valley.

The Longshot competition also includes the Homebrewers. Jim Koch was the keynote speaker at the 2008 NHC in Cincinnatti.


Boston Beer's Lehigh Valley brewery is the old F.M. Schaeffer brewery near Allentown.  Ownership of that brewery was a revolving door. 

By the way, a homebrewer is an amateur brewer.  The major difference between an advanced homebrewer and a professional brewer is that a professional brewer receives compensation for his/her work.
The reason I said homebrewer was that the Longshot includes one beer from a BBC staff member.
I often say I am a professional amateur brewer, usually with a wink and a nod.

The old Schaefer brewery was built for a 4 million bbl. capacity, but probably never made that. I understand it has different equipment today. The old Hudepohl-Schoenling brewery in Cincinnati needed some upgrades when BBC bought it.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 28, 2014, 10:28:15 PM
The old Schaefer brewery was built for a 4 million bbl. capacity, but probably never made that. I understand it has different equipment today. The old Hudepohl-Schoenling brewery in Cincinnati needed some upgrades when BBC bought it.

It was sad to see the Stroh Brewing Company acquire Schaefer.  As you know, Schaefer was one of the brewing companies that pioneered the style that we refer to today as Classic American Pilsner (one of my favorite styles of beer to brew). National Bohemian (a.k.a. Natty Boh) and Schaefer were the two brews that my father and grandfather usually drank when they drank beer.  Another beer that my father drank from time to time was Schmidt's (William Pflaumer’s desire to avoid paying taxes drove the company that Christian Schmidt built into the ground).  The crazy thing is that all of these old East Coast breweries made products that tasted better than Budweiser.  Well, at least we still have Christian's yeast strain* available to us.

*The Christian Schmidt strain (a.k.a., Seibel Bry 118, Wyeast 2272, and Brewtek CL-630)
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 28, 2014, 11:01:16 PM
The old Schaefer brewery was built for a 4 million bbl. capacity, but probably never made that. I understand it has different equipment today. The old Hudepohl-Schoenling brewery in Cincinnati needed some upgrades when BBC bought it.

It was sad to see the Stroh Brewing Company acquire Schaefer.  As you know, Schaefer was one of the brewing companies that pioneered the style that we refer to today as Classic American Pilsner (one of my favorite styles of beer to brew). National Bohemian (a.k.a. Natty Boh) and Schaefer were the two brews that my father and grandfather usually drank when they drank beer.  Another beer that my father drank from time to time was Schmidt's (William Pflaumer’s desire to avoid paying taxes drove the company that Christian Schmidt built into the ground).  The crazy thing is that all of these old East Coast breweries made products that tasted better than Budweiser.  Well, at least we still have Christian's yeast strain* available to us.

*The Christian Schmidt strain (a.k.a., Seibel Bry 118, Wyeast 2272, and Brewtek CL-630)
The first sip of a CAP I had from Jeff Renner at a club meeting instantly transported me back to the time when I would steal sips of beer when I was a little kid.

I brew a CAP every year. Most are surprised it is made with 6row, corn meal, and cluster hops, finished with a noble hop. I am partial to WLP 833, the Ayinger Strain, but might do a split batch some day with the Schmidt's strain to see how it does. I do remember Schmidt's to be pretty good.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 01, 2014, 03:17:55 AM
One of my entries is a CAP.  However, it pushes the boundaries of the style.   I used domestic 2-row, flaked maize, and a single decoction mash instead of using 6-row, corn grits, and a double mash,.  I used Liberty for my bittering and knockout additions.  The batch was fermented with an interesting old American lager yeast strain that I dug out of a culture collection.   The strain behaves much like a more attenuative Christian Schmidt.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: klickitat jim on March 01, 2014, 04:32:06 AM
I think the other aspect is that there's fallacy in assuming that a commercial beer, even a classic style example, would automatically win. Condition makes a difference, the commercial beer may not be at peak flavor, and commercial brewers make sacrifices for production reasons that homebrewers don't always have to. It may be a good example and would score well, but it's probably not a perfect example.

This is the reply I was fishing for. If my brew is any hint of what others are brewing, I have no doubt that the best beers are home brewed. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying my (fill in the blank) is better that any commercial example. I'm saying that if a moron rookie like me can do what I do, then in a nationwide contest with 700 entries in one class, a decent commercial example would be lucky to get honorable mention.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 01, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
I think the other aspect is that there's fallacy in assuming that a commercial beer, even a classic style example, would automatically win. Condition makes a difference, the commercial beer may not be at peak flavor, and commercial brewers make sacrifices for production reasons that homebrewers don't always have to. It may be a good example and would score well, but it's probably not a perfect example.

This is the reply I was fishing for. If my brew is any hint of what others are brewing, I have no doubt that the best beers are home brewed. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying my (fill in the blank) is better that any commercial example. I'm saying that if a moron rookie like me can do what I do, then in a nationwide contest with 700 entries in one class, a decent commercial example would be lucky to get honorable mention.
Read the Commercial Calibration reviews in Zymurgy to see how the high ranking judges rate commercial beers.
Title: Re: My entries are going to be disqualified
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 01, 2014, 03:02:14 PM
I think the other aspect is that there's fallacy in assuming that a commercial beer, even a classic style example, would automatically win. Condition makes a difference, the commercial beer may not be at peak flavor, and commercial brewers make sacrifices for production reasons that homebrewers don't always have to. It may be a good example and would score well, but it's probably not a perfect example.

This is the reply I was fishing for. If my brew is any hint of what others are brewing, I have no doubt that the best beers are home brewed. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying my (fill in the blank) is better that any commercial example. I'm saying that if a moron rookie like me can do what I do, then in a nationwide contest with 700 entries in one class, a decent commercial example would be lucky to get honorable mention.
Read the Commercial Calibration reviews in Zymurgy to see how the high ranking judges rate commercial beers.

I have read them with increased interest.  I always wonder if one or more of the judges get a beer that might have been aged, mishandled or simply from a different batch, given some of the comments.  Also, it is interesting that while the analytics are the same, some characteristic is more highly approved by one judge as compared to others.  Finally, the scores are interesting from an averaging perspective - one judge may be typically a few points lower on average than the others.  Not criticizing at all, but I have noticed the subtle human aspect that comes with judging something as ephemeral as a beer experience!