Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: mcdform on March 02, 2014, 05:39:32 AM

Title: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 02, 2014, 05:39:32 AM
I recently set out to brew a pale stout with traditional stout ingredients. I failed a couple of times in accomplishing the "pale" portion of the stout but finally seem to have made progress using nitrogen infusion and iced gelatin filtration (sounds so nerdy).

I used JZ's Dry Stout recipe from BCS but treated the black roasted barley in the following way (I brew 1 gallon BIAB):

- Add 2 oz milled black roasted barley into ISI whip (whip cream machine) and fill with room temp water to .5 liter. Charge with one nitrogen canister and empty after 1 minute into Chemex coffee maker with paper coffee filter. Heat liquid in microwave until hot then mix into prepped gelatin (.5% by weight of liquid).

The results were very interesting and the resulting liquid could be described as: Dry astringency and roast both present. More chocolaty than astringent. Much lighter than normal steeped grains.

After tasting the mixture I began phase II which was the iced gelatin filtration process. The liquid was frozen solid then thawed on a cheesecloth lined sieve over a bowl in the refrigerator. The whole process took about 4.5 days from infusion to thaw. It was so much fun that I did it twice to get a nice light colored liquid!

After completing a 2nd round of gelatin filtration the liquid looked like the photo below:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Us-ANeSF0qA/UxGB3CLvekI/AAAAAAAAAcM/43V-1tUaISY/s1600/IMG_2248.JPG)

Now that I had a nice looking black roasted barley extract it was time to brew. The brew was a normal BIAB with a cereal mash and 60 minute rest at 150F. The black roasted barley was added with 1 minute left in the boil to minimize added color. Once cooled the resulting beer's appearance blew my mind. Almost pale ale in color and nothing like a stout. I didn't get a good taste so I'm flying blind but hopefully it will have some roast character and will provide a starting point for further exploration. I'm pretty excited! Here's a pic of the fermentation vessel with the pale stout inside:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vxpcSm1WK6s/UxGDKo3QEqI/AAAAAAAAAcY/uG8Wp1c8I4g/s1600/20140227_143316.jpg)

I believe that using the quick infusion with the ISI whip allowed me to get the flavor from the grains without extracting color. I probably should have used unmilled grain (I'm going to try it soon) to see if the roast character could come out without milling. For more info on my process check out my signature. For more info on quick infusions check out Dave Arnold's post and for more info on my inspiration for iced gelatin filtration check out the jimseven blog post from 2007.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: Jimmy K on March 02, 2014, 12:00:48 PM
Wow! What a cool unique process. Let us know how it tastes when it's finished.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: erockrph on March 02, 2014, 03:20:24 PM
This is awesome stuff! I've been kicking around an idea of brewing a pair of coffee stouts - one using light roasted barley, pale chocolate malt and whole blonde roast coffee beans; and the other with dark roast barley and chocolate malt, and ground espresso beans. But this takes it to a whole new level. Please keep us posted with updates.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: gmwren on March 02, 2014, 07:48:54 PM
Pale stouts! Next thing they will think of is black IPAs!
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 02, 2014, 08:12:14 PM
Pale stouts! Next thing they will think of is black IPAs!

I agree it's totally useless but sort of fun.  If it's roasty enough the sensation of drinking something so light and roasty will be entertaining for abit.

Besides, maybe it will help people who are concerned with dark beers staining their teeth. :)
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: ranchovillabrew on March 02, 2014, 08:21:33 PM
Noble ale works makes  a blonde coffee stout called naughty sauce

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 02, 2014, 08:41:48 PM
Noble ale works makes  a blonde coffee stout called naughty sauce

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk



It's a tasty beer but I don't believe they are making it with a traditional stout recipe.  I heard they use a little bit of roasted grain and try to get roasted flavors from the coffee.  A few other breweries have done it as well.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 02, 2014, 08:57:19 PM
Are there any commercial examples of this in bottled form yet?  I'm curious but skeptical. If it's a good beer I'm game to try it. But being a huge stout fan, gotta say the name sounds sounds like BS.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 02, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
To be honest I have no clue if there are any bottled versions available.  I know that Naughty Sauce is draft only (last I checked) but again they are not stout recipes from what my research has shown.

This recipe for this was 63% MO, 25% Flaked Barley and 12% Black Roasted Barley.  If anyone is around LA when it's done I'm willing to try and get them a taste if it resembles a stout in flavor.

The name, I wasn't sure what to call mine.  Didn't want to say "white" because that usually means wheat so pale seemed to fit.

I can't imagine a commercial brewery trying this because of the labor and time involved but commercial kitchens sometimes use this method for consommes.  You could do a five gallon batch with a bit more work on the first part but the gelatin filtration would be easy in big pans with holes in the bottom.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 02, 2014, 09:40:49 PM
To be honest I have no clue if there are any bottled versions available.  I know that Naughty Sauce is draft only (last I checked) but again they are not stout recipes from what my research has shown.

This recipe for this was 63% MO, 25% Flaked Barley and 12% Black Roasted Barley.  If anyone is around LA when it's done I'm willing to try and get them a taste if it resembles a stout in flavor.

The name, I wasn't sure what to call mine.  Didn't want to say "white" because that usually means wheat so pale seemed to fit.

I can't imagine a commercial brewery trying this because of the labor and time involved but commercial kitchens sometimes use this method for consommes.  You could do a five gallon batch with a bit more work on the first part but the gelatin filtration would be easy in big pans with holes in the bottom.

Didn't mean to single you out.  Sorry. I've been hearing the term 'white stout' thrown around lately. Just trying to get my head around it.    :)
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 02, 2014, 10:02:23 PM
Thanks man.  If this is successful and I brew a bigger batch I'll send you one to try! :)
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 02, 2014, 10:37:33 PM
I'm all for trying it, to see if it's possible to get that kind of flavor in a paler beer (though I'm skeptical) . I remember a couple years ago the idea of Black IPA was considered heresy or a joke too !
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: chezteth on March 03, 2014, 04:38:54 AM
JP's brewing in Stevens point, WI has a blonde stout. It is rather sweet with the flavor of white chocolate. Not quite what I would think of as a stout but interesting none the less.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: dkfick on March 03, 2014, 04:57:01 AM
Very cool project.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: reverseapachemaster on March 03, 2014, 03:13:04 PM
Very interesting.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 03, 2014, 05:17:05 PM
JP's brewing in Stevens point, WI has a blonde stout. It is rather sweet with the flavor of white chocolate. Not quite what I would think of as a stout but interesting none the less.

Thanks for the information.  I looked it up and it sounds similar to what others have tried.  I found this quote from beerpulse.com.  Nonetheless it still sounds tasty!:

"JP’s Casper White Stout is not actually white in color, but it’s not the deep brown, almost black hue characteristic of stouts either: it is an inviting amber color. “Our challenge was to make it as pale as possible,” Hopkins said. “That means we cannot use black roasted malts in the brew, so instead we age it for two weeks with coffee beans and cocoa nibs to create the classic stout roasted character.”
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: dmtaylor on March 03, 2014, 05:21:42 PM
JP's brewing in Stevens point, WI has a blonde stout. It is rather sweet with the flavor of white chocolate. Not quite what I would think of as a stout but interesting none the less.

I'm pretty sure it's crème de cacao.  Nothing like a stout at all, really.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: denny on March 03, 2014, 05:45:18 PM
Drew put a recipe for a white stout into the book.  After my initial heart attack, I calmed down.  ;)
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: johnf on March 03, 2014, 07:29:10 PM
I thought about this and never tried it a while back. One of the ideas I had was to try activated charcoal filtration. That would certainly remove color but I wasn't sure if it would selectively remove more or less color than all of the non-color stuff I wanted to keep.

Reading about the attempts to make clear coffee and stock I would assume this has been tried and must not be effective if people are using relatively more complicated techniques.

The second idea I had, which might still be worth trying, is to infuse ethanol rather than water. This would obviously not work for making stock or coffee so it isn't worth excluding based on the logic above. I still sort of suspect this might be effective at selectively infusing aromatic compounds rather than color but I haven't tried it.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: morticaixavier on March 03, 2014, 08:12:46 PM
I thought about this and never tried it a while back. One of the ideas I had was to try activated charcoal filtration. That would certainly remove color but I wasn't sure if it would selectively remove more or less color than all of the non-color stuff I wanted to keep.

Reading about the attempts to make clear coffee and stock I would assume this has been tried and must not be effective if people are using relatively more complicated techniques.

The second idea I had, which might still be worth trying, is to infuse ethanol rather than water. This would obviously not work for making stock or coffee so it isn't worth excluding based on the logic above. I still sort of suspect this might be effective at selectively infusing aromatic compounds rather than color but I haven't tried it.

I have steeped colored stuff in ethanol and the color is extracted as well. Perhaps if you evaporated the ethanol and passed it through your roasted grains in vapor form but that raises legality issues I think (perhaps not if you start with high percentage ethanol and don't concentrate it but that's above my pay grade)
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: johnf on March 03, 2014, 08:28:57 PM
I thought about this and never tried it a while back. One of the ideas I had was to try activated charcoal filtration. That would certainly remove color but I wasn't sure if it would selectively remove more or less color than all of the non-color stuff I wanted to keep.

Reading about the attempts to make clear coffee and stock I would assume this has been tried and must not be effective if people are using relatively more complicated techniques.

The second idea I had, which might still be worth trying, is to infuse ethanol rather than water. This would obviously not work for making stock or coffee so it isn't worth excluding based on the logic above. I still sort of suspect this might be effective at selectively infusing aromatic compounds rather than color but I haven't tried it.

I have steeped colored stuff in ethanol and the color is extracted as well. Perhaps if you evaporated the ethanol and passed it through your roasted grains in vapor form but that raises legality issues I think (perhaps not if you start with high percentage ethanol and don't concentrate it but that's above my pay grade)

Right, but extracting in water extracts color is well. If the ethanol extracts less color per aroma/flavor then it would better serve the goal of making a pale stout than a water extraction.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: morticaixavier on March 03, 2014, 08:38:44 PM
I thought about this and never tried it a while back. One of the ideas I had was to try activated charcoal filtration. That would certainly remove color but I wasn't sure if it would selectively remove more or less color than all of the non-color stuff I wanted to keep.

Reading about the attempts to make clear coffee and stock I would assume this has been tried and must not be effective if people are using relatively more complicated techniques.

The second idea I had, which might still be worth trying, is to infuse ethanol rather than water. This would obviously not work for making stock or coffee so it isn't worth excluding based on the logic above. I still sort of suspect this might be effective at selectively infusing aromatic compounds rather than color but I haven't tried it.

I have steeped colored stuff in ethanol and the color is extracted as well. Perhaps if you evaporated the ethanol and passed it through your roasted grains in vapor form but that raises legality issues I think (perhaps not if you start with high percentage ethanol and don't concentrate it but that's above my pay grade)

Right, but extracting in water extracts color is well. If the ethanol extracts less color per aroma/flavor then it would better serve the goal of making a pale stout than a water extraction.

gotcha.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: narcout on March 03, 2014, 09:00:09 PM
The brew was a normal BIAB with a cereal mash and 60 minute rest at 150F.

Why the cereal mash? 
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 03, 2014, 09:20:35 PM
The brew was a normal BIAB with a cereal mash and 60 minute rest at 150F.

Why the cereal mash?

For the flaked barley.  It wasn't for any other reason than to keep the recipe and process the same as in BCS so that I could see the difference in how it turns out based on my previous "regular" brews from the same recipe.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 03, 2014, 09:23:55 PM
Quote

Right, but extracting in water extracts color is well. If the ethanol extracts less color per aroma/flavor then it would better serve the goal of making a pale stout than a water extraction.

Could try extracting the grains into ethanol in the ISI Whip to see if you get more flavor from the grains and less color than the roasted color.  I just got another couple pounds of roasted barley to play around with.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: narcout on March 03, 2014, 09:47:12 PM
The brew was a normal BIAB with a cereal mash and 60 minute rest at 150F.

Why the cereal mash?

For the flaked barley.  It wasn't for any other reason than to keep the recipe and process the same as in BCS so that I could see the difference in how it turns out based on my previous "regular" brews from the same recipe.

Got it.  I'm pretty sure flaked barley is pre-gelatinized and doesn't require a cereal mash.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 03, 2014, 10:34:30 PM
Drew put a recipe for a white stout into the book.  After my initial heart attack, I calmed down.  ;)

Thanks Denny, Drew used cocoa nibs and coffee without dark roasted grains as well.  If this works we could try making a pale Vanilla Bourbon Porter. ;)  Hopefully your heart could handle that one.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: dcb on March 05, 2014, 03:30:20 AM
1.  I really want to taste this
2. "Pale stout" still sounds like an oxymoron to me
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: mcdform on March 06, 2014, 01:49:53 AM
1.  I really want to taste this
2. "Pale stout" still sounds like an oxymoron to me

1.  i'm going to brew a 5 gallon batch and bring it to the Southern California Homebrewer's Festival (you might be a little far away for that one).  Looks like the fest is cancelled this year.  I'll bring it to a meeting for our local homebrew club.

2.  How about Naked stout?

Edited since festival was cancelled.
Title: Re: Pale Stout (with roasted grains) - New Techniques
Post by: dcb on March 06, 2014, 02:12:58 AM
1.  i'm going to brew a 5 gallon batch and bring it to the Southern California Homebrewer's Festival (you might be a little far away for that one).

Regretfully, it is a little too far.  Although sometimes I suprise myself at how far out of the way I'll go for a good beer.

2.  How about Naked stout?

I like it!  Brings to mind some great label ideas.