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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: erockrph on March 12, 2014, 03:11:26 PM

Title: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on March 12, 2014, 03:11:26 PM
I have a Bohemian Pilsner coming up soon on my brewing schedule. I've never brewed this style before and was wondering what everyone had for suggestions. It will be a bit on the hoppy side (surprise), and I'm going to be using Motueka for my hops, so I want a yeast that will let some of that lime zest/lemongrass character shine through. I've been looking at 2000, 2001 and 2278, but I'm open to any suggestions.

Also, any suggestions what to brew next after the Pils with that yeast? I already have a doppelbock going, so Baltic Porter seems like the obvious choice for a bigger lager. But I'm leaning towards thinking outside the box a bit and doing some experimenting.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: dannyjed on March 12, 2014, 05:21:38 PM
I recently used Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager for a BoPils and a German Pils and it came out nicely. Good attenuation and no diacetyl.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: kmccaf on March 12, 2014, 05:42:13 PM
I would use 2278, and then brew a Czech Dark Lager. I just tapped my Dark Lager, and it is phenomenal. Very crisp and hoppy.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: Pinski on March 12, 2014, 05:51:42 PM
I have a Bohemian Pilsner coming up soon on my brewing schedule. I've never brewed this style before and was wondering what everyone had for suggestions. It will be a bit on the hoppy side (surprise), and I'm going to be using Motueka for my hops, so I want a yeast that will let some of that lime zest/lemongrass character shine through. I've been looking at 2000, 2001 and 2278, but I'm open to any suggestions.

Also, any suggestions what to brew next after the Pils with that yeast? I already have a doppelbock going, so Baltic Porter seems like the obvious choice for a bigger lager. But I'm leaning towards thinking outside the box a bit and doing some experimenting.
I would go with 2206, 2124 or 2278. I like your Baltic idea but how about Schwarzbier if you've not tried that? They can be fantasitcally interesting and refreshing dark lagers.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on March 12, 2014, 07:01:04 PM
I would go with 2206, 2124 or 2278. I like your Baltic idea but how about Schwarzbier if you've not tried that? They can be fantasitcally interesting and refreshing dark lagers.

I was thinking of brewing something big, but I should have 2 fermenter spots open when the Pils is ready. Maybe I'll split the cake and do a Schwarz on one and something else on the other half. Maybe something with the new Red X malt from Best. Decisions, decisions...
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 12, 2014, 07:51:47 PM
I would go with a Saaz-type (Bohemian) yeast strain such as 2000, 2001, or 2278. Wyeast 2124 is Weihenstephan W-34/70, which is a Frohberg-type (Bavarian) yeast strain. 

Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: Pinski on March 12, 2014, 07:55:55 PM
I would go with a Saaz-type (Bohemian) yeast strain such as 2000, 2001, or 2278. Wyeast 2124 is Weihenstephan W-34/70, which is a Frohberg-type (Bavarian) yeast strain.

Yeah, I figured if he's using Motueka hops he's not too worried about staying true to "Boh" style.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 12, 2014, 10:12:20 PM
Yeah, I figured if he's using Motueka hops he's not too worried about staying true to "Boh" style.

Motueka is a perfectly acceptable Saaz substitute.  It is to Saaz what Mt. Hood, Liberty, and Ultra are to Hallertauer Mittelfrüh.   Motueka was developed to be a higher producing, less photoperiod sensitive substitute for traditional Saaz.  The peak day length in Zatec is almost sixteen and half hours. The peak day length in Nelson is a little over fifteen hours.   Anheuser Busch (AB) established Elk Mountain Farms in Bonners Ferry, Idaho because its latitude is in the Goldilocks zone for growing noble hops (Bonners Ferry's latitude is over two degrees further north than that of the Yakima Valley).  At 48.6922° N, AB can grow the diploid landrace hop cultivars instead of their triploid clones.  Sixteen hours of sunlight is the magic number for growing noble hops.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: troybinso on March 12, 2014, 10:19:47 PM
Yeah, I figured if he's using Motueka hops he's not too worried about staying true to "Boh" style.

Motueka is a perfectly acceptable Saaz substitute.  It is to Saaz what Mt. Hood, Liberty, and Ultra are to Hallertauer Mittelfrüh.   Motueka was developed to be a higher producing, less photoperiod sensitive substitute for traditional Saaz.  The peak day length in Zatec is almost sixteen and half hours. The peak day length in Nelson is a little over fifteen hours.   Anheuser Busch (AB) established Elk Mountain Farms in Bonners Ferry, Idaho because its latitude is in the Goldilocks zone for growing noble hops (Bonners Ferry's latitude is over two degrees further north than that of the Yakima Valley).  At 48.6922° N, AB can grow the diploid landrace hop cultivars instead of their triploid clones.  Sixteen hours of sunlight is the magic number for growing noble hops.

While this may be the true heritage of Motueka, it sure doesn't taste a lot like Czech Saaz.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: Pinski on March 12, 2014, 11:24:47 PM
Yeah, I figured if he's using Motueka hops he's not too worried about staying true to "Boh" style.

Motueka is a perfectly acceptable Saaz substitute.  It is to Saaz what Mt. Hood, Liberty, and Ultra are to Hallertauer Mittelfrüh.   Motueka was developed to be a higher producing, less photoperiod sensitive substitute for traditional Saaz.  The peak day length in Zatec is almost sixteen and half hours. The peak day length in Nelson is a little over fifteen hours.   Anheuser Busch (AB) established Elk Mountain Farms in Bonners Ferry, Idaho because its latitude is in the Goldilocks zone for growing noble hops (Bonners Ferry's latitude is over two degrees further north than that of the Yakima Valley).  At 48.6922° N, AB can grow the diploid landrace hop cultivars instead of their triploid clones.  Sixteen hours of sunlight is the magic number for growing noble hops.
Ok, I'll keep all that in mind next time I'm aiming for a lime zesty/lemongrassy Boh-Pils.  ::)
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: dannyjed on March 12, 2014, 11:41:41 PM
I would go with a Saaz-type (Bohemian) yeast strain such as 2000, 2001, or 2278. Wyeast 2124 is Weihenstephan W-34/70, which is a Frohberg-type (Bavarian) yeast strain.
FWIW I don't think the lager yeast strain is as important as the malt and hop flavor for a BoPils. I recently entered my BoPils in a big competition using the 2124 strain and I didn't use Saaz hops. I used Perle and Hersbrucker and I entered it anyway just to get feedback and see where it stood up to the style. It got a 36 and the comments from the BJCP judges were "it needs more Saaz flavor and aroma for a better score".
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 12, 2014, 11:44:52 PM
Yeah, I figured if he's using Motueka hops he's not too worried about staying true to "Boh" style.

Motueka is a perfectly acceptable Saaz substitute.  It is to Saaz what Mt. Hood, Liberty, and Ultra are to Hallertauer Mittelfrüh.   Motueka was developed to be a higher producing, less photoperiod sensitive substitute for traditional Saaz.  The peak day length in Zatec is almost sixteen and half hours. The peak day length in Nelson is a little over fifteen hours.   Anheuser Busch (AB) established Elk Mountain Farms in Bonners Ferry, Idaho because its latitude is in the Goldilocks zone for growing noble hops (Bonners Ferry's latitude is over two degrees further north than that of the Yakima Valley).  At 48.6922° N, AB can grow the diploid landrace hop cultivars instead of their triploid clones.  Sixteen hours of sunlight is the magic number for growing noble hops.
Ok, I'll keep all that in mind next time I'm aiming for a lime zesty/lemongrassy Boh-Pils.  ::)

+1.  I think Mt Hood and Liberty are at least moderately interchangeable with German Hallertau, whereas Motueka and Saaz maybe not so much for a traditional BoPils.  I do like Motueka in an American-type ale blend though.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on March 13, 2014, 12:22:06 AM
Yeah, I'm not doing a completely by-the-books BoPils with the Motueka, but that's fine. I can definitely pick up the Saaz-lineage with Motueka, but there is a lime zest/lemongrass flavor & aroma that I love. I'm definitely not planning on a "bombs away" hopping approach, but I am planning on a short hop stand and modest dry hop. I think the Motueka will fit the bill nicely here, and the Saazer parentage will help tie things back into the Bohemian theme. (Motueka was actually originally called "Saaz/B") I guess it will be something of a "Motuemian Pilsner" in the end.

And, to get the train back on the rails, I'm pretty sure the original "Saaz" comment was referring to the yeast's lineage, and not the hop's .
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 13, 2014, 12:39:36 AM
Yeah, I'm not doing a completely by-the-books BoPils with the Motueka, but that's fine. I can definitely pick up the Saaz-lineage with Motueka, but there is a lime zest/lemongrass flavor & aroma that I love. I'm definitely not planning on a "bombs away" hopping approach, but I am planning on a short hop stand and modest dry hop. I think the Motueka will fit the bill nicely here, and the Saazer parentage will help tie things back into the Bohemian theme. (Motueka was actually originally called "Saaz/B") I guess it will be something of a "Motuemian Pilsner" in the end.

And, to get the train back on the rails, I'm pretty sure the original "Saaz" comment was referring to the yeast's lineage, and not the hop's .

No, I get what you're doing here, and I think it sounds pretty good !  I just thought the advice on using a 'historically accurate' yeast was a little out of place given the spirit of this beer.

EDIT - I think WY2124 would be a good one for this one. It's easy to use and clean.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 13, 2014, 02:35:00 AM
+1.  I think Mt Hood and Liberty are at least moderately interchangeable with German Hallertau, whereas Motueka and Saaz maybe not so much for a traditional BoPils.  I do like Motueka in an American-type ale blend though.

It depends on how it used.   Sure, the citrus notes are going to come through in a big way if one late hops the heck out of a beer with Motueka (most modern craft beers are over-hopped).  However, Moteuka is used as a substitute for Saaz on a regular basis because it has Saaz's spicy notes in addition to the non-Saaz notes.  The same can be said about Liberty.  Liberty is almost like a caricature of Hallertauer.  As an aroma hop, Liberty leaves Hallertauer in the dust. 
 
With that said, would I use Moteuka instead of Czech Saaz?  Well, if I am going to use an imported hop in a Bohemian-style Pilsener, it would have to be the real thing.  However, seeing that I prefer to use whole cones with a false bottom, I tend to use the U.S. triploids Sterling and Santiam in my Bohemian-style lagers because high-quality whole cone Czech Saaz is difficult to obtain via the home brew trade.  Neither hop is perfect for the job.

With respect to yeast, well, there is huge difference between Saaz (Bohemian) and Frohberg (German) lager strains.  Members of the Frohberg family of lager yeast strains have an additional set of Saccharomyces cerevisiae chromosomes, which makes them less cold tolerant and more attenuative.  Saaz strains produce a beer with more residual sweetness.  Saaz strains also tend to be more flocculent than Frohberg strains, which means that they tend to leave behind above taste threshold diacetyl.  I like a touch of diacetyl in my Bohemian Pilseners.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 13, 2014, 04:10:27 AM
Just watch out for DMS and diacetyl with this style of beer!  As to Hops - Saaz is the preferred hop near as I can tell
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: Pinski on March 13, 2014, 05:09:46 AM
Yeah, I'm not doing a completely by-the-books BoPils with the Motueka, but that's fine. I can definitely pick up the Saaz-lineage with Motueka, but there is a lime zest/lemongrass flavor & aroma that I love. I'm definitely not planning on a "bombs away" hopping approach, but I am planning on a short hop stand and modest dry hop. I think the Motueka will fit the bill nicely here, and the Saazer parentage will help tie things back into the Bohemian theme. (Motueka was actually originally called "Saaz/B") I guess it will be something of a "Motuemian Pilsner" in the end.

And, to get the train back on the rails, I'm pretty sure the original "Saaz" comment was referring to the yeast's lineage, and not the hop's .

No, I get what you're doing here, and I think it sounds pretty good !  I just thought the advice on using a 'historically accurate' yeast was a little out of place given the spirit of this beer.

EDIT - I think WY2124 would be a good one for this one. It's easy to use and clean.

Exactly Hoosier, that's all I was trying to say.  I love where Erockr is going with this beer and Motueka sounds like a great hop. I'm really excited to try them after this discussion because I have half a lb. in the freezer and lemongrass is one of my favorite flavor notes. I simply suggested Pils strains that in my experience have produced very clean fermentations that allow the hops to shine. Any that I listed could also go on to produce a fine Schwarzbier from harvested yeast.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 13, 2014, 04:17:55 PM
There's nothing wrong with a clean, crisp, hop-centric Pils.  It is just not a Bohemian Pilsener.  A large part of the complex malt profile that is found in a well-made Bohemian Pilsener is the result of using a Saaz-type lager strain. 
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: Pinski on March 13, 2014, 05:20:19 PM
Yeah, I'm not doing a completely by-the-books BoPils with the Motueka, but that's fine. I can definitely pick up the Saaz-lineage with Motueka, but there is a lime zest/lemongrass flavor & aroma that I love. I'm definitely not planning on a "bombs away" hopping approach, but I am planning on a short hop stand and modest dry hop. I think the Motueka will fit the bill nicely here, and the Saazer parentage will help tie things back into the Bohemian theme. (Motueka was actually originally called "Saaz/B") I guess it will be something of a "Motuemian Pilsner" in the end.

And, to get the train back on the rails, I'm pretty sure the original "Saaz" comment was referring to the yeast's lineage, and not the hop's .

Wherever you land on your yeast choice Eric, please do report back how this turns out for you. Cheers.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on March 13, 2014, 10:46:51 PM
Might be a little while before I get to brew it, but I just placed my order. Going with Budvar (WY2000). Thanks for the input, everyone!
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 13, 2014, 10:55:45 PM
I'm sure it'll be good.  Look forward to hearing how it comes out !
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: ajk on March 26, 2014, 09:58:32 AM
With that said, would I use Moteuka instead of Czech Saaz?  Well, if I am going to use an imported hop in a Bohemian-style Pilsener, it would have to be the real thing.  However, seeing that I prefer to use whole cones with a false bottom, I tend to use the U.S. triploids Sterling and Santiam in my Bohemian-style lagers because high-quality whole cone Czech Saaz is difficult to obtain via the home brew trade.  Neither hop is perfect for the job.

I thought Sterling was a diploid.  I tend to think of Mt. Hood, Ultra, Crystal, and, as you mention, Santiam when I think of U.S. triploids with a noble character.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: klickitat jim on March 26, 2014, 11:39:32 AM
Heh heh..he thaid diploid.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on March 27, 2014, 03:07:42 AM
There's nothing wrong with a clean, crisp, hop-centric Pils.  It is just not a Bohemian Pilsener.  A large part of the complex malt profile that is found in a well-made Bohemian Pilsener is the result of using a Saaz-type lager strain.
You sure what are you talking about?
Just checking
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on June 24, 2014, 05:02:09 AM
I'm finally drinking this beer, so I thought I'd check in with an update. In the end, my yeast selection didn't have near the impact as my hop selection and schedule. In particular, the dry hops really took this from Pilsner to APA/borderline IPA territory. First impressions from my friends ranged from "What is this, an IPA?" to "this is really fruity".

It's a solid beer, and it was a big hit with my buddies, but personally I'm really missing the gypsum in this. There's fruit and spice on the nose. A sip leads off with some fruit and a nice bitterness, but then it just seems to drop off and finishes with that pasta dough pils malt note. It's like it's not sure if it wants to be an APA or a Bo Pils.

I like the flavors here, but the super-soft water profile just isn't cutting it with the hops. I've tried several takes on the APA-meets-lager thing over the past few years, and still haven't quite gotten there yet. But I think I'm finally getting close to what I'm picturing. Next time I'll use a "hoppy pale" water profile, bump up my whirlpool additions, and cut the dry hops a bit. I'll probably add some Sterling to really emphasize that "noble, but fruity" hop profile as well.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on June 25, 2014, 05:15:51 PM
I like the flavors here, but the super-soft water profile just isn't cutting it with the hops. I've tried several takes on the APA-meets-lager thing over the past few years, and still haven't quite gotten there yet. But I think I'm finally getting close to what I'm picturing. Next time I'll use a "hoppy pale" water profile, bump up my whirlpool additions, and cut the dry hops a bit. I'll probably add some Sterling to really emphasize that "noble, but fruity" hop profile as well.

Maybe, just maybe, you do not care for Bo Pils?   Soft water is an integral part of that style.  There's nothing wrong with not caring for a style.  I have a friend whose opinion I respect that cannot stand lager.  Most of the beer that I make is not to style.

On the topic of water, two beers were served during the session that John Palmer gave on water chemistry.  One was made with tap water.  The other was made with adjusted water that included the addition of CaSO4.   Both of the beers were good, but there was definite difference in finish.   Many people preferred the beer that was made with tap water.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on June 25, 2014, 07:33:13 PM
I like the flavors here, but the super-soft water profile just isn't cutting it with the hops. I've tried several takes on the APA-meets-lager thing over the past few years, and still haven't quite gotten there yet. But I think I'm finally getting close to what I'm picturing. Next time I'll use a "hoppy pale" water profile, bump up my whirlpool additions, and cut the dry hops a bit. I'll probably add some Sterling to really emphasize that "noble, but fruity" hop profile as well.

Maybe, just maybe, you do not care for Bo Pils?   Soft water is an integral part of that style.  There's nothing wrong with not caring for a style.  I have a friend whose opinion I respect that cannot stand lager.  Most of the beer that I make is not to style.

It's more that the beer seemed rather disjointed. I wasn't shooting for a traditional Bo Pils specifically. It's more that I've been meaning to make a hoppy lager with Motueka, and I've also been meaning to brew a Bo Pils. I tried to mesh the two together, but I find that the "hoppy lager" part of it wants more sulfate, and the Bo Pils part doesn't want the dry hops.

It's still a good beer. I'm just playing the typical homebrewer "how can I make this better" game.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: brewcrew7 on July 03, 2014, 03:10:06 PM
S. cerevisiae, thank you for your enlightening comments about the yeast. The only lager strain I'm using is the Frohberg-type (2124) though lately I think I'm losing some attenuation in successive pitches on different worts.

Eric, what was your hop schedule? I recently brewed a similar beer with about 1oz/5gal FWH MtHood and 1oz FO/no-chill Sterling. Recently got a suggestion to move back the late hops to 30 minutes remaining as the beer was a bit "grassy" to him. I was contemplating on dryhopping but didn't. I think the beer may already be 6-8 weeks old and I think that hop character is already 50% or less of what it was just 2 weeks ago.

Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on July 03, 2014, 04:25:11 PM
Hop schedule was 1 oz of Motueka at each of my additions: 60 min, a 30 min hop stand at 180f, and a 1oz dry hop/D-rest at 62f for about a week. This was a 3 gallon batch.

I didn't get a chance to lager it that long. After 2 weeks at 35f I served this beer at my 4 year olds bday party. It was pretty much kicked after 2 hours.

As far as the grassiness you're getting, don't rule out the Pils malt as the source of that. I do pick that up on occasion.
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: morticaixavier on July 03, 2014, 04:27:18 PM
Hop schedule was 1 oz of Motueka at each of my additions: 60 min, a 30 min hop stand at 180f, and a 1oz dry hop/D-rest at 62f for about a week. This was a 3 gallon batch.

I didn't get a chance to lager it that long. After 2 weeks at 35f I served this beer at my 4 year olds bday party. It was pretty much kicked after 2 hours.

As far as the grassiness you're getting, don't rule out the Pils malt as the source of that. I do pick that up on occasion.

man! your 4 year old is a party animal huh?
Title: Re: Bo Pils yeast strain recommendations?
Post by: erockrph on July 03, 2014, 04:36:02 PM


man! your 4 year old is a party animal huh?

He has a couple of friends in kindergarten that are bad influences.