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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: tomas77 on April 08, 2010, 04:15:29 AM

Title: saison mash
Post by: tomas77 on April 08, 2010, 04:15:29 AM
Hi looking for the best mash temp for a Saison. 60 minute.  Looking for it to be like Saison Dupont  a little.  Thanks,
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: MDixon on April 08, 2010, 04:58:02 AM
DuPont (according to Farmhouse Ales by Markowski) mashes by striking at 113F and ramping up at 0.5F/min till mashout.

If you are looking for a single temp, try 146-148F.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: Beertracker on April 08, 2010, 10:45:07 AM
It more depends on what malt(s) you're actually going to be using?  ???
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 08, 2010, 04:37:10 PM
Depends on your grain bill, OG, sugars, etc. Gotta give more info, but one thing is sure, a saison should be DRY.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: brewbeard on April 08, 2010, 07:13:40 PM
If you are doing a single infusion between 146-149, then you may want to increase your mash time to 90 minutes to insure complete conversion. The increased mash time will also help dry the beer out.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: redbeerman on April 09, 2010, 11:21:44 AM
Depends on your grain bill, OG, sugars, etc. Gotta give more info, but one thing is sure, a saison should be DRY.

Verrrrry Dry!  Saison Dupont is so dry it evaporates in your mouth! :o
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: stownson on April 09, 2010, 11:29:49 AM
Hi looking for the best mash temp for a Saison. 60 minute.  Looking for it to be like Saison Dupont  a little.  Thanks,

Increase mash time to 90 minutes and give it 20 minutes at 144 degrees the raise to 149 and let it sit for 70 minutes.

After 1 full week of fermentation, add your simple sugars.  I use invert sugar syrup.

Be sure to ramp fermentation temps through to completion which will be abour 4 weeks.  You're going to need to maintain 85 degrees at the end to get it to finish.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 09, 2010, 11:48:58 AM
Hi looking for the best mash temp for a Saison. 60 minute.  Looking for it to be like Saison Dupont  a little.  Thanks,

Increase mash time to 90 minutes and give it 20 minutes at 144 degrees the raise to 149 and let it sit for 70 minutes.

After 1 full week of fermentation, add your simple sugars.  I use invert sugar syrup.

Be sure to ramp fermentation temps through to completion which will be abour 4 weeks.  You're going to need to maintain 85 degrees at the end to get it to finish.
I don't understand how you can make such broad blanket statements without knowing anything about the OPs recipe. 85° may be fine for some saison yeasts, but makes others taste like crap, or may not even be hot enough for otheres. The mash schedule depends totally on the grain bill. I have made plenty of fantastic saisons using a low single infusion and zero extra sugar. Which is why everybody said "need more info"

One thing though OP, if this is your first saison, then avoid using ANY spices. You will get more than enough from the yeast.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: MDixon on April 09, 2010, 12:16:49 PM
One thing though OP, if this is your first saison, then avoid using ANY spices. You will get more than enough from the yeast.

Case of the pot calling the kettle black...you don't have enough information to make that statement. Suppose our friend the OP decides to use some strain without distinctive characteristics, then his beer could potentially have a lack of spicy phenols.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 09, 2010, 12:25:51 PM
One thing though OP, if this is your first saison, then avoid using ANY spices. You will get more than enough from the yeast.

Case of the pot calling the kettle black...you don't have enough information to make that statement. Suppose our friend the OP decides to use some strain without distinctive characteristics, then his beer could potentially have a lack of spicy phenols.
If he's using a strain that doesn't provide distinctive characteristics, then he's not using a saison strain. While they're all different, they're not without character.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: MDixon on April 09, 2010, 12:29:54 PM
I think a better suggestion would be to tell our friend the OP to purchase Farmhouse Ales by Markowski and then decide how to proceed with mashing and with fermentation.

Then no one would be making generalizations which may or may not apply  ;)
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 09, 2010, 12:33:54 PM
Agreed. That is a suggestion that I often give out, but failed to in this instance.

OP, do that thing he said.  ;D
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: stownson on April 09, 2010, 02:05:02 PM
I don't understand how you can make such broad blanket statements without knowing anything about the OPs recipe. 85° may be fine for some saison yeasts, but makes others taste like crap, or may not even be hot enough for otheres. The mash schedule depends totally on the grain bill. I have made plenty of fantastic saisons using a low single infusion and zero extra sugar. Which is why everybody said "need more info"

One thing though OP, if this is your first saison, then avoid using ANY spices. You will get more than enough from the yeast.

LMAO.....  If he's going to make a Siason Dupont, won't he be using the Dupont yeast?  Wyeast 3724?  Read up on that yeast an then talk to me about ramping temps.

Next, try getting Siason dry enough without the sugar additions.....It won't happen.  I didn't tell him how much just that he will need to add them mid ferment and not at boil.  While you may make your siason without, it would be better and dryer with.

As for the grain bill, I've very curious what you use in your siason besides Belgian Pils and some Vienna?  The 144 degree limit dextrinase rest will increase the fermentability of any low crystal malt grainbill.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 09, 2010, 04:27:17 PM
He didn't say he was making a Saison Dupont clone. He said he wanted it a little like it. Which I interpret as "inspired by". It's quite possible that he will use the dupont yeast, in which case you're correct, you do need to ramp it up quite warm to get it to attenuate, and probably leave it there for a couple weeks. That yeast is notoriously stubborn. Of course if he's not in fact using that yeast, as was the conclusion you jumped to, then all bets are off until we know what he is in fact using.

And if you can't get a Saison to dry out using an all malt grainbill then you are either A, having fermentation issues, or B, only make strong saisons. I personally prefer a lower gravity saison and it's quite easy to get an all malt grainbill in the 1.040s to finish at or below 1.005 without sugar. Usually a long and low single infusion mash is all that is necessary. If, on the other hand, I am trying to make something stronger, then sure, simple sugar is the way to do it and still have a dry product. But it's far from a requirement in every Saison brewed.

As for the grainbill, it's a saison dude, not a Helles. There are no laws dictating what grains can and cannot go into it. By it's very nature saison grain bills can be all over the place. While mostly pils with a touch of vienna can make a great saison, it is far from the only way to make one. What about wheat? Or spelt? Both being very traditional grains used in these beers. This is one of the styles that I feel the BJCP is really doing a disservice to, by trying to pigeonhole it into what they think it should be - ie, Saison Dupont.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: narvin on April 10, 2010, 08:37:49 AM

Next, try getting Siason dry enough without the sugar additions.....It won't happen.  I didn't tell him how much just that he will need to add them mid ferment and not at boil.  While you may make your siason without, it would be better and dryer with.


Uh, Saison Dupont uses no sugar.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: narvin on April 10, 2010, 12:59:48 PM

And if you can't get a Saison to dry out using an all malt grainbill then you are either A, having fermentation issues, or B, only make strong saisons. I personally prefer a lower gravity saison and it's quite easy to get an all malt grainbill in the 1.040s to finish at or below 1.005 without sugar. Usually a long and low single infusion mash is all that is necessary. If, on the other hand, I am trying to make something stronger, then sure, simple sugar is the way to do it and still have a dry product. But it's far from a requirement in every Saison brewed.


I agree completely.  My last all-malt Saison went from 1.055 to 1.004 with the Dupont yeast.  6.7%, dry, and delicious!
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: uthristy on April 11, 2010, 04:00:42 AM

Next, try getting Siason dry enough without the sugar additions.....It won't happen.


Now that's  just funny and so wrong at the same time.

Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: pjj2ba on April 11, 2010, 08:30:11 PM
I like White Labs Saison II strain, which is supposedly also from Dupont (correct?)  This strain has been a champ and has churned through some big beers typically finishing out around 1.006-7.  This is with all malt brews with no sugars added
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: dean on April 13, 2010, 09:30:01 AM
I thought adding a little sugar was typical of Belgian brews?   ;D  hehehe
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 13, 2010, 10:53:55 AM
I thought adding a little sugar was typical of Belgian brews?   ;D  hehehe
It certainly can be, depending on the style, but it's far from a requirement. Especially in a Saison.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: resto3 on April 22, 2010, 10:21:12 AM
I made a Saison using 14 pounds of Belgian Pils and 1 Pound of Demerara Sugar.  Mashed at 144 for 90 minutes, added the sugar late in the boild.  Used wlp 565 Saison I.  Went from 1.072 to 1.027 in like 4 days and then it took over a month in the hot garage to get it to 1.002.  It did turn out dry and great.  I am going to brew this style again and I will use the approach described in Farm House Ales for a more fermentable wort.  I'll always use a little sugar to dry it otr.

Cheers,

Richie 
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 22, 2010, 10:32:09 AM
Got one fermenting as we speak. Zero sugar. OG was 1.049, which is still higher than I intended. Oh well
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: narvin on April 22, 2010, 11:37:28 AM
I made a Saison using 14 pounds of Belgian Pils and 1 Pound of Demerara Sugar.  Mashed at 144 for 90 minutes, added the sugar late in the boild.  Used wlp 565 Saison I.  Went from 1.072 to 1.027 in like 4 days and then it took over a month in the hot garage to get it to 1.002.  It did turn out dry and great.  I am going to brew this style again and I will use the approach described in Farm House Ales for a more fermentable wort.  I'll always use a little sugar to dry it otr.

Cheers,

Richie  

If you are making a 1.072 OG Saison, I'd agree that some sugar is necessary to dry it out.  But if you are looking at the traditional Saison style (not the American interpretation), this is much too high of an OG, so you're already in "Super-Saison" territory.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: resto3 on April 22, 2010, 11:41:47 AM
You are correct.  Super Saison Territory it is.  Either way, easy to make and tasted really good.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: dbeechum on April 22, 2010, 02:03:43 PM
But if you are looking at the traditional Saison style (not the American interpretation)

The Belgians were already doing a number of Super Saisons well before our Craft brewers ever picked up the idea. It is true that the super saison is the preferred variety over here though.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: majorvices on April 22, 2010, 02:21:01 PM
Got one fermenting as we speak. Zero sugar. OG was 1.049, which is still higher than I intended. Oh well

+1. Any saison under 1.060 shouldn't need sugar. Tank - I don't know if you remember that Saison I sent you with the Lime Leaves and Ginger in it but that was a 1.060 saison with about a pound of sugar. I really liked that beer. But I knocked out the sugar and dropped the gravity down to around 1.050 and I really LOVE that beer know. Kind of a cross between a Wit and a Saison.
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 22, 2010, 02:27:32 PM
Got one fermenting as we speak. Zero sugar. OG was 1.049, which is still higher than I intended. Oh well

+1. Any saison under 1.060 shouldn't need sugar. Tank - I don't know if you remember that Saison I sent you with the Lime Leaves and Ginger in it but that was a 1.060 saison with about a pound of sugar. I really liked that beer. But I knocked out the sugar and dropped the gravity down to around 1.050 and I really LOVE that beer know. Kind of a cross between a Wit and a Saison.

Yeah man, I remember. It was a damn good beer. On the same note, the one I just brewed is pretty similar to the Saison that I sent you, that had the mild brett character. Grain bill was the same, just changed up the hops a bit from EKGs to Nelson Sauvin. Playing a little.  ;D
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: majorvices on April 22, 2010, 02:54:37 PM
Oh yeah? Might be time for an exchange again. IIRC I made out with the better deal on that last one.  ;)
Title: Re: saison mash
Post by: tankdeer on April 22, 2010, 03:38:07 PM
Ha ha. Thanks man. I gotta say, the beers you sent me were pretty tasty.

But yeah, we should. Might have to wait until the end of summer though.