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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Steve L on May 14, 2014, 06:02:05 AM

Title: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Steve L on May 14, 2014, 06:02:05 AM
Is attenuation and lag time a better indication of proper aeration as opposed to flavor?
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Jimmy K on May 14, 2014, 06:21:48 AM
Aren't attenuation and FG two measures of the same thing?
 
But I think the answer is yes, no, maybe - because wort aeration is just part of overall yeast health which includes healthy cells, pitch rate, fermentation temperature, and aeration. Together, yeast health will affect attenuation, lag time, fermentation flavors and off-flavors, head retention, and more. You can't really decouple one outcome and link it to one cause.
 
Also, I'd guess that pitch rate and cell health can hide aeration problems.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2014, 06:33:13 AM
Proper areation leads to yeast health which leads to better, faster attenuation, less lag time, and healthier repitch.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: klickitat jim on May 14, 2014, 06:38:05 AM
I think its not quite as easy as picking one or the other. Like asking if 4 is a good indication that the problem was 2 plus 2. It could have been 1 plus 3, or 2 x 2, or 100 minus 96, but if the goal was 4 and you got 4 I would keep doing what you did.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 14, 2014, 06:47:57 AM
Proper areation leads to yeast health which leads to better, faster attenuation, less lag time, and healthier repitch.

FTW
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: troybinso on May 14, 2014, 06:56:46 AM
It would be a pretty easy experiment to set up. Split a batch into two fermenters, pitch the same amount of yeast, aerate one but not the other. Keep notes on fermentation and finished product. Report back to the group.  :)
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: kramerog on May 14, 2014, 07:07:47 AM
Lag time is significantly affected by pitch temp and pitch volume, and presumably yeast strain.  I think attenuation and flavor are better indicators than lag time. 
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: denny on May 14, 2014, 07:54:08 AM
I think its not quite as easy as picking one or the other. Like asking if 4 is a good indication that the problem was 2 plus 2. It could have been 1 plus 3, or 2 x 2, or 100 minus 96, but if the goal was 4 and you got 4 I would keep doing what you did.

Right on the money, Jim.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: yso191 on May 14, 2014, 08:36:16 AM
Proper areation leads to yeast health which leads to better, faster attenuation, less lag time, and healthier repitch.

FTW

I have to ask: FTW?   I can't get past the meaning from my youth.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2014, 09:06:28 AM
Proper areation leads to yeast health which leads to better, faster attenuation, less lag time, and healthier repitch.

FTW

I have to ask: FTW?   I can't get past the meaning from my youth.

I think it is Forty Terra Watts.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: dmtaylor on May 14, 2014, 09:41:48 AM
For The Win?

And For The Record and For What It's Worth (FTR & FWIW), I'm with Denny and Jim on this one.  Do whatever works.

In the end, flavor is the only thing that matters.  A brewer who makes up all his own rules and doesn't use any of the majority rules of thumb, and can still manage to make excellent tasting beer, to me, is the friggin winner.  It all comes down to flavor.  If differences in process have zero flavor effects, then it is important to note that those differences are not, in fact, important.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on May 14, 2014, 10:03:07 AM
For The Win?

Read it in your head with Marv Albert's voice. Makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 14, 2014, 10:06:09 AM
"For The Win".  Sorry Steve.     ;)
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2014, 11:38:05 AM
Wrong. It means:  Fornicating the Walrus....
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: HoosierBrew on May 14, 2014, 11:44:53 AM
Wrong. It means:  Fornicating the Walrus....

 Shot coffee out my nose on that one. Image is burned in my brain.   :D
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Jimmy K on May 14, 2014, 01:24:09 PM
Proper areation leads to yeast health which leads to better, faster attenuation, less lag time, and healthier repitch.

FTW
If you pitch bad yeast all the aeration in the world won't save you me thinks.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Steve L on May 14, 2014, 05:11:53 PM
I guess what prompted this post was an off flavor I get rather often. It's kind of a sherry or vinous flavor... not too strong but tends to show up within a few weeks of aging. Interestingly enough, 2 things come up when I do a search... under pitching and under aerating. Currently I aerate with pure O2 at about 45 seconds @ 1 lpm for a 2.5 gallon batch. I try to pitch right on but it is a game of best guess. Which do you think is more likely to be an issue?
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2014, 05:20:45 PM
Proper areation leads to yeast health which leads to better, faster attenuation, less lag time, and healthier repitch.

FTW
If you pitch bad yeast all the aeration in the world won't save you me thinks.

But of course!
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Jimmy K on May 14, 2014, 05:33:12 PM
Well sherry I've always associated with oxidation after fermentation, but more of a long term aging oxidation. I'm not sure what would cause it to show up quickly.  Your aeration procedure sounds fine though. I doubt that is the cause.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: dmtaylor on May 14, 2014, 05:46:14 PM
I wonder if you are over-oxygenating.  I don't use pure O2 so I really don't know.  However I do believe there is such a thing.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Stevie on May 14, 2014, 05:46:35 PM
My vote is hot side aeration or autolysis. ;)
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: klickitat jim on May 14, 2014, 05:55:47 PM
Keg or bottle? Describe how you transfer.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: majorvices on May 14, 2014, 06:05:49 PM
I guess what prompted this post was an off flavor I get rather often. It's kind of a sherry or vinous flavor... not too strong but tends to show up within a few weeks of aging. Interestingly enough, 2 things come up when I do a search... under pitching and under aerating. Currently I aerate with pure O2 at about 45 seconds @ 1 lpm for a 2.5 gallon batch. I try to pitch right on but it is a game of best guess. Which do you think is more likely to be an issue?

Sounds like oxidation to me. Are you using a secondary? As Jim asked, kegging or bottling?

Theoretically it is possible to over aerate but unless you are using pure o2 on very cold wort with very fine bubbles for extended periods it seems rather unlikely. And I'm not sure that you would be getting oxidative like off flavors.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Steve L on May 14, 2014, 06:34:29 PM
Let's see... My post boil process is putting my kettle in an ice water bath as well as using my immersion chiller to chill down to about 65 usually within 15 minutes (easier to chill when you only do 2.5 gallon batches :D) Once it's chilled I whirlpool and let it sit for 15 minutes then transfer to carboy with an autosiphon. I aerate with pure O2 for 45 seconds @ 1 lpm using a 2 micron stone.

  I almost never use a secondary unless I'm going to lager a LONG time, like more than 2 months. Post fermentation, on bottling day, I transfer from carboy to a 5 gallon bottling bucket using an autosiphon. I do stir a bit when I mix in my priming sugar but I'm talking EXTREMELY gently. Sometimes the beer may sit in the bucket for a half hour or so while I prepare the bottling implements. I bottle using a bottling wand connected to the spigot with a 3 inch piece of tubing and cap each bottle as I go. I do use oxy caps but I soak them in starsan so I may be defeating the Oxy scrubbing ability of the liner. I then carb at 75 degrees for 3 weeks and chill for a week before I try the first bottle. Often times the first week post carbing and chilling I get some harsh green flavors (expected). the second week is usually the best. Then the flavors start to fade a bit as it ages further. I had  southern English brown ale that had an awesome chocolate/coffee flavor 2 weeks after carbing, but within 2 weeks after that it faded quite a bit. That is to say it was still a nice beer but when I get a nice complex beer, it seems short lived. Then after 3-4 weeks I get the vinous flavor undertones. Sometimes the vinous flavor comes on a bit faster. I wish I could have correlated that possibly with the ABV of the beers that were affected but I haven't as yet unfortunately. It feels like I'm walking a flavor tightrope and I'm teetering a bit but not falling off, if that makes sense. :D
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: Stevie on May 14, 2014, 06:57:48 PM
From what I have been told, oxycaps are activated when soaked in sanitizer. I've done this since forever. You should be fine there. They are single use, so once wet the oxy scrubbing ability is gone.
Title: Re: is FG the best indication of proper wort aeration?
Post by: klickitat jim on May 15, 2014, 06:33:10 AM
Let's see... It feels like I'm walking a flavor tightrope and I'm teetering a bit but not falling off, if that makes sense. :D

I deleted all the stuff in the middle because it seems normal process, but the first two words and the last sentence lead me to believe that you are searching for the off flavor. I highly suggest that you find the nearest national judge and have them taste it for you.