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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: klickitat jim on July 07, 2014, 11:55:07 PM

Title: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 07, 2014, 11:55:07 PM
My next brew day is a couple sours. I'm pitching Roesalare in each. I've ordered 4 propogators. Do you guys make starters? Do you guys oxygenate the wort before pitching?

The beers are each 5 gallon in the neighborhood of 1.055. Would two packs each be enough without a starter?
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: AmandaK on July 08, 2014, 12:38:46 AM
No starters with the sour mixes. I usually do a smack pack in 5 gallons and then pitch bottle dregs of things I like. I do not oxygenate as most everything I do is soured in the secondary. I also do not oxygenate my lambics that get 3278 pitched in the primary.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 08, 2014, 01:16:30 AM
Makes sense. I'll be pitching Roesalare from the beginning though. I don't plan on saving the trube obviously so maybe I'll pitch two packs in each and skip o2
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: Kinetic on July 08, 2014, 12:34:19 PM
My last Roesalare plus Brett dregs beer was 1.064 OG, finished at 7.8% after 6 months.  Didn't use oxygen.  Used one smack pack.  No starter for Roeselare.  Small starter for the brett dregs.  Added fruit to the primary after 1 month.  Left everything in the primary for 6 months.  The end result was a mouth watering sour with a big brett note.

 
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 08, 2014, 01:46:55 PM
You really only need one pack per 5 gallons, as long as its fairly fresh.

If its an older pack, you could add a bit of dry yeast to round out the sacch cell count.

If you're pitching into more than 1 container, its a good opportunity to experiment with the mixed cultures.

Use two different mixed cultures (Roselare and a lambic blend, BugFarm, individual cultures, etc),
pitch one in primary and one in secondary (after sacch ferment),
lactic fermentation in one before pitching the mixed culture,
use the Roselare in one, bottle dregs in the other,
Aerate one but not the other (I would be REALLY interested in this since I haven't done it),
etc. etc. etc.

If you mix up the fermentation of the same wort, you'll also have more flavor options to work with on the back end, eventually blending for a more complex final beer.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 08, 2014, 03:59:34 PM
Its two different worts. A flanders red ish that will get 10lbs cherries in a month, and a triple based recipe that will get 10lbs peaches.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: AmandaK on July 09, 2014, 02:44:39 PM
Remember, don't put the beer on your timetable.

It will let you know when it is time to add fruits (if any) or any other additions. Beer cannot be put on a schedule and sour beer is even more unruly when it comes to time frames. It'll be ready when it's ready. Best thing to do is forget about it for the first 6-8 months and then try it. From there you can wait some more (likely) or actually do something with it (less likely).
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 16, 2014, 07:10:57 PM
As a last minute adjustment I'm using speidel 30L fermentor so I upped my volumes. Roughly 8 gallons each final volume then I'll just top off with the fruit additions. Thinking that will limit head space and O2 uptake a little better.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 17, 2014, 06:21:47 PM
Remember, don't put the beer on your timetable.

It will let you know when it is time to add fruits (if any) or any other additions. Beer cannot be put on a schedule and sour beer is even more unruly when it comes to time frames. It'll be ready when it's ready. Best thing to do is forget about it for the first 6-8 months and then try it. From there you can wait some more (likely) or actually do something with it (less likely).

+1

You want the gravity to level out for at least a month or two before adding fruit. Here's why:

To minimize overpressure in the bottle, you have to wait for secondary fermentation to complete. If its not complete before the fruit is added, you have to wait for the fruit sugars AND the rest of the complex sugars/carbs to be fermented. The fruit flavor fades before you can get the finished beer in a bottle.

Fill those fermentors up to the top and let 'em sit for at least 6 months. Once gravity is stable for 6 weeks or so, add fruit.

If you need more headspace when adding fruit, pull off some of the base beer for bottling/kegging or transfer into a larger container. Don't leave headspace for the fruit at the start of fermentation - you'll pick up more oxygen than you want.
 
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 17, 2014, 11:44:30 PM
Copy that. I'll recalculate
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 19, 2014, 12:58:44 AM
I ended up filling my 30L fermentor to about 4" from the top for primary. I'm going to try my idea of topping off with the fruit foe reducing headspace. Eyeballing it is guess I can get what I need in there. I want ten pounds cherries and ten of peaches minimum. If it won't fir I'll rack some beer off.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 20, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
Checked on my babies this morning. Both are bubbling away happily. They are throwing a wonderful belgian ester aroma with a cherry/pear background. Ooooh I think these will be yummy
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 20, 2014, 07:10:32 PM
That sounds great, Jim.  I have a solera going between a year old Oaked 5 gallons and a separate glass 5 gallons, then blending back to the glass based batch on a 5 to 1 basis for serving.  My 2 month old is progressing nicely to pellicle for next year's load... I am biased, but this kicks Monk's Cafe and Rodenbach's butt IMHO....I bet yours will be great, too with that fruit addition.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 20, 2014, 09:45:48 PM
Ya I went to Logsdon's Farmhouse a month ago and was instantly sold on the cherry Flanders and peche farmhouse styles. Swore I'd never brew wild or with fruit... don't rule out doing beers you've never tried awesome examples of.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 20, 2014, 10:07:59 PM
Swore I'd never brew wild or with fruit... don't rule out doing beers you've never tried awesome examples of.

+1 to that. 
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 21, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Ya I went to Logsdon's Farmhouse a month ago and was instantly sold on the cherry Flanders and peche farmhouse styles. Swore I'd never brew wild or with fruit... don't rule out doing beers you've never tried awesome examples of.

The Cerise is incredibly delicious. I'm very sad I don't have access to Logsdon at home.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 21, 2014, 04:15:30 PM
Yes the cerasus is my favorite, unless its empty then I like the peche, followed by anything else he makes. Though im not a huge fan of coriander,  so the spiced belgian... not so much. But thats not his fault.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 22, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
...Swore I'd never brew wild or with fruit... don't rule out doing beers you've never tried awesome examples of.

Welcome to the dark side!

It won't be long until you have funky ferments going in all corners of your house...
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: morticaixavier on July 22, 2014, 07:50:15 PM
...Swore I'd never brew wild or with fruit... don't rule out doing beers you've never tried awesome examples of.

Welcome to the dark side!

It won't be long until you have funky ferments going in all corners of your house...

My wife is an angel and the proof is that we have not had a master bath shower for over a year because I took it over for my 'sour room'. This also means that on occasion an exhalation of lactic/funky wonderful will waft out of that bathroom in the night and STILL she doesn't kick me to the curb. love.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 22, 2014, 07:55:05 PM
...Swore I'd never brew wild or with fruit... don't rule out doing beers you've never tried awesome examples of.

Welcome to the dark side!

It won't be long until you have funky ferments going in all corners of your house...

My wife is an angel and the proof is that we have not had a master bath shower for over a year because I took it over for my 'sour room'. This also means that on occasion an exhalation of lactic/funky wonderful will waft out of that bathroom in the night and STILL she doesn't kick me to the curb. love.

Man, that's funny. She's definitely a keeper ! My wife has sacrificed some space over the years too, but never the master shower.  :D.  Awesome.

EDIT - But my wife is basically a beer hater except for the fruit beers I make for her, and she is supportive of it nonetheless, so I'm lucky too.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: dannyjed on July 22, 2014, 07:59:45 PM
...Swore I'd never brew wild or with fruit... don't rule out doing beers you've never tried awesome examples of.

Welcome to the dark side!

It won't be long until you have funky ferments going in all corners of your house...

My wife is an angel and the proof is that we have not had a master bath shower for over a year because I took it over for my 'sour room'. This also means that on occasion an exhalation of lactic/funky wonderful will waft out of that bathroom in the night and STILL she doesn't kick me to the curb. love.
That is awesome...sacrifice for the sours!
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 25, 2014, 07:40:08 PM
To extend this thread on a slight tangent, I heard that Brett will eat autolyzed yeast, if necessary, so what effect will storage of the harvested Roeselaere blend have on shifting the balance of the blend away from the original pitch/harvest yeast:bugs ratio?

Or is that geeking it to a microbiology level that a homebrewer should just ignore.  With so much time invested in these sours, I am thinking I should at least ask!

Sorry for the hijack/diversion, Jim, but with the name of the topic, I thought it made more senses just go with this one further....
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: morticaixavier on July 25, 2014, 07:50:28 PM
To extend this thread on a slight tangent, I heard that Brett will eat autolyzed yeast, if necessary, so what effect will storage of the harvested Roeselaere blend have on shifting the balance of the blend away from the original pitch/harvest yeast:bugs ratio?

Or is that geeking it to a microbiology level that a homebrewer should just ignore.  With so much time invested in these sours, I am thinking I should at least ask!

Sorry for the hijack/diversion, Jim, but with the name of the topic, I thought it made more senses just go with this one further....

the balance for sure changes over time when ageing. I don't have nearly enough experience yet to say how. I know that in general bacteria reproduce a heck of a lot faster than yeast and wild yeasts tend to have a lot less cold tolerance than sach strains.

I think it's important to learn to let go of a little control (or illusion thereof) when dealing with sour beers. Even more than with 'clean' beers it's microbiota that are in charge. One of the things about mixed fermentations that I love is the mystery of not knowing what will come out of each project and not even knowing how each project will present in a week, month, or year. I'm just starting to get enough of a sour pipeline built up to start thinking about blending and it's a whole new world of taste imagination to practice.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: Kinetic on July 25, 2014, 07:54:28 PM
The sacc, brett, lacto, pedio balance will be significantly different from the initial pitch because they reproduce and die at different rates.  Some people report good or even subjectively better results with the second generation pitch.  I haven't tried a second generation pitch and don't plan on trying it.  I'm happy with the first pitch results.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 25, 2014, 08:35:18 PM
To extend this thread on a slight tangent, I heard that Brett will eat autolyzed yeast, if necessary, so what effect will storage of the harvested Roeselaere blend have on shifting the balance of the blend away from the original pitch/harvest yeast:bugs ratio?

Or is that geeking it to a microbiology level that a homebrewer should just ignore.  With so much time invested in these sours, I am thinking I should at least ask!

Sorry for the hijack/diversion, Jim, but with the name of the topic, I thought it made more senses just go with this one further....

I "store" my mixed cultures at room temp in growlers. I decant the clearest beer and feed replace with fresh wort every 6-8 weeks. The starter wort is 1.030ish and has a big dollup of maltodextrin along with DME.

If you want to keep your Roselare going, just make a starter and pour in some from the keg/bottle (before chilling).

I expect that over time the sacch strains die off and leave brett and bacteria. If you're using an older culture, you can either pitch fresh sacch/brett, or just let it go. You don't really need a sacch strain.

I've also seen lacto viability drop off as the culture matures, so I've taken to pre-souring with a separate lacto culture for Flanders-style and quick sours (Gose), just to move things along. In traditional lambic, pedio does most/all of the souring anyway.

I kept my lambic culture going in a bucket by racking off and back on in the same day. The 2nd batch was exponentially more awesome than the 1st. I had to clean it when I moved, else it would still be going.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 26, 2014, 03:57:21 PM
Good tangent. Can a bug pro answer his question about bugs eating the sac yeast? If they do, what is the point of racking off the trub to secondary? Especially if secondarying for a long period of time?
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: morticaixavier on July 26, 2014, 05:00:53 PM
I've certainly heard that brett and other bacteria will eat autolized yeast. Depending on how complete they are about it wracking becomes an issue of controlling levels of what ever flavour compounds are created by that process. more dead yeast = more ??? flavors.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: Kinetic on July 26, 2014, 06:14:34 PM
I'm not a bug pro, but brett will eat dead sacc.  The last Flanders I made where I left everything in the primary for six months did have a little autolysis flavor, but it was a good umami flavor like marmite and it wasn't overpowering.  I suppose the flavor could intensify over longer periods of time and perhaps become unpleasant depending on your taste.  I had a Belgian sour from Alvinne a few months ago that had a much heavier autolysis flavor than my beer and I still thought it tasted good.



Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 26, 2014, 11:44:25 PM
Hmmm I think ill rack off to another speidel when I drop my fruit. Thanks
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: Kinetic on July 27, 2014, 02:14:26 PM
That's the safest move for your first wild beer and it's what most home brewers do.  I'm leaving it on the cake for 9 months next time to see if it increases umami-ness.         
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 27, 2014, 03:13:20 PM
Great word
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: Kinetic on July 27, 2014, 06:27:17 PM
There's a burger chain called Umami Burger.  I need to go there.  It has to be good.

I really want to use the stinky cheese aged hops for the next sour.  Has anyone here used them?  I fully intended to use them last time, but a little voice inside my head said "no, not this time".
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: morticaixavier on July 27, 2014, 11:12:08 PM
I think the aged hops are supposed to come through and out the other side of stinky cheese before you use them. shouldn't smell like much.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: macbrews on July 28, 2014, 03:30:48 AM
I've got my first Flanders Red that is about a month old.  At two weeks, I split the 10 gallons - 1/2 in a carboy with Roselare and half in a 5 gallon oak barrel with WLP665.  Tossed in dregs from Boulevard Love Child in the Carboy and Rodenbach Grand Cru in the barrel.

My question is, what do you think of topping off the barrel for the angel's share with additional charges of similar sour dregs from various bottles?  Is there too much of a good thing?  Do the waters get a bit too muddy if you add multiple top offs?  And how often is it recommended to top it off?  When I have used this barrel before I purged the dead space with a blast of CO2 after pulling a sample to try to get the extra O2 out, but I never added extra wort.

Thanks,

Mac

Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 28, 2014, 11:41:17 AM
I am in pretty much the same position with my second year batch made in May 2014 and ready to be blended with some of my first year batch later this year (10 gallons in June 2013 split between glass carboy and 5 gallon bourbon barrel).  I blended portions of the first batch at about a 1:5 ratio for bottling for comps and kegging in a 3 gallon cornie.  Then I filled the barrel with the rest of the carboy - I didn't add new dregs to the barrel, but you can, if you think it isn't enough.  As the barrel ages, it likely will not need dregs, because the bugs will be in the wood.  Some guys do a lactic sour mash to prep the wort from a souring perspective, because the lacto loses some punch to the Brett and pedio over time, but I haven't found the need (I used a new couple vials of Roeselaere for the 5 gallon batch this past May).  I didn't pitch any extra Sacc, either, because the fresh vials had enough Sacc for the primary IMO.  One other thought is fruit - I have some tart cherry wine base that I intend to add into the mix on the next blend, just for grins.  Have fun and remember, it's a hobby.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 29, 2014, 07:06:43 PM
I really want to use the stinky cheese aged hops for the next sour.  Has anyone here used them?  I fully intended to use them last time, but a little voice inside my head said "no, not this time".

I use aged hops in my lambic base, but I make sure they're WAY past the point of 'stinky cheese' and just smell like dried hay. They have very little odor. This is what the commercial brewers are using. I assume 'stinky' hops will make your beer taste... 'stinky'. If they stink, they probably still have too much alpha for lambic.

The aged hops do add flavor to the wort which isn't detectable in the final beer. Chad Y says brett can metabolize hop oils during aging, so they probably have some impact on the final product.

The primary reason for using aged hops is lactobacillus inhibition, so their only place is in lambic style wort. You want acidity from lacto in your Flanders-style sours, so stick with very low quantities of fresh hops (<10 IBU).

Aged hops aren't required for lambic. I use them because its traditional and I get great results with my process ("If it ain't broke..."). I'm also running low and will eventually run out, so in a few years I'll be able to tell if there is a real difference. Stay tuned...
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 30, 2014, 04:03:50 AM
Sourced my fruit today. Its a two hour drive each way to save about $200 in shipping, but on the 8th I'm making a road trip to Oregon Fruit. 42 lbs of 18° plato dark sweet cherry puree and 42 lbs of 12° plato peach puree. 84 lbs for under $90. Also gives me an excuse to finally stop by Belmont Station ;-)
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 30, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
Sourced my fruit today. Its a two hour drive each way to save about $200 in shipping, but on the 8th I'm making a road trip to Oregon Fruit. 42 lbs of 18° plato dark sweet cherry puree and 42 lbs of 12° plato peach puree. 84 lbs for under $90.

Man, that is a great price for a great product.  I'm paying just a little more/lb.  Ok, a lot more.  ;)

EDIT  -  FWIW, online and at LHBS, good purees like this are in the $5 -6/lb range.  Totally worth the drive. What a steal.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 30, 2014, 03:46:49 PM
That is a ridiculously good price on fruit. Well worth the four hours of driving. It's not like the drive is even a terrible one.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on July 30, 2014, 05:11:33 PM
Ya great price, great product. Aseptic and ready for brewing. I'll use about 10-15 pounds in each brew and the wife will make preserves with the rest.
The stuff I want is cheap, but not ALL of their fruit purees are...
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/31/abubahud.jpg)
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: erockrph on July 30, 2014, 07:10:51 PM
Hmm. I might have to brew a dubbel with Italian plums this fall...
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on September 02, 2014, 10:33:46 PM
I cracked open the cherry flanders. Took a small taster sample. Nowhere near done of course, but it already has a nice brett farmhouse thing going on. Sour has a ways to go. Its got plenty of cherry character. No acetic.  I promise I'll leave it alone now.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: ynotbrusum on September 02, 2014, 10:59:57 PM
I have a tart cherry wine base that I may add to mine soon.  Glad to hear of your success with this batch!
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: HoosierBrew on September 02, 2014, 11:37:14 PM
I have a tart cherry wine base that I may add to mine soon. 

Sounds great !  I'm planning something similar soon.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: klickitat jim on September 03, 2014, 12:06:43 AM
It's on its way to be good for a first try. Unless the sour really comes on from behind, I think next time I will pitch lactic warm for the first week, then the roesalare. Or better yet, lactic then abbey then age on Brett.
Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 03, 2014, 01:19:30 AM
Good tangent. Can a bug pro answer his question about bugs eating the sac yeast? If they do, what is the point of racking off the trub to secondary? Especially if secondarying for a long period of time?
I am not a pro, but with these styles of beers my thinking is that everything you know is wrong (comparing to normal brewingpractices).

Conduct a mash that leaves a lot of starch. Use 3 year old hops exposed to the air.
Expose wort to the air overnight.
Put into barrels that are inoculated.
Allow Pedio to do its thing, but depend on Brett to clean up Diacetyl after the Pedio.
And the bugs and critters will eat the leftovers from the yeast as the autolysis happens.

Compare and contrast to usual practice.

Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 03, 2014, 01:20:36 AM
Good tangent. Can a bug pro answer his question about bugs eating the sac yeast? If they do, what is the point of racking off the trub to secondary? Especially if secondarying for a long period of time?
I am not a pro, but with these styles of beers my thinking is that everything you know is wrong (comparing to normal brewingpractices).

Conduct a mash that leaves a lot of starch. Use 3 year old hops exposed to the air.
Expose wort to the air overnight.
Put into barrels that are inoculated.
Allow Pedio to do its thing, but depend on Brett to clean up Diacetyl after the Pedio.
Allow a little O2 into the beer as it ages in the barrels.
And the bugs and critters will eat the leftovers from the yeast as the autolysis happens.

Compare and contrast to usual practice.

Title: Re: Roeselare
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on September 03, 2014, 02:35:19 PM
Good tangent. Can a bug pro answer his question about bugs eating the sac yeast? If they do, what is the point of racking off the trub to secondary? Especially if secondarying for a long period of time?
I am not a pro, but with these styles of beers my thinking is that everything you know is wrong (comparing to normal brewingpractices).

Conduct a mash that leaves a lot of starch. Use 3 year old hops exposed to the air.
Expose wort to the air overnight.
Put into barrels that are inoculated.
Allow Pedio to do its thing, but depend on Brett to clean up Diacetyl after the Pedio.
Allow a little O2 into the beer as it ages in the barrels.
And the bugs and critters will eat the leftovers from the yeast as the autolysis happens.

Compare and contrast to usual practice.

Unconverted starch is metabolized by pedio (and potentially brett, but much slower, if at all).

In Flanders-style sours, you're looking to get most of the acidity from Lactobacillus, so residual starch is unnecessary. For the same reason, aged hops should not be used, since their purpose in lambic is to inhibit Lacto.

These beers hit their peak earlier than lambic, and so the wort is brewed to accommodate. You don't want starch or the level of unfermentables produced by a turbid mash w/ lots of unmalted wheat. You DO want dextrin and flavor from crystal malts, and increased body/foam from a touch of oats or wheat.

It's on its way to be good for a first try. Unless the sour really comes on from behind, I think next time I will pitch lactic warm for the first week, then the roesalare. Or better yet, lactic then abbey then age on Brett.

This has become my SOP. I've actually started leaving sacch. out of the mix altogether and conducting 'primary' (alcoholic) fermentation with bretta (unless a gnarly bottling strain has survived in my mixed culture, which I doubt).