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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: sambates on July 24, 2014, 01:05:53 AM

Title: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: sambates on July 24, 2014, 01:05:53 AM
Knocking out an English Barleywine in a few weeks. Looking to use WLP007 Dry English. Does anyone have recommendations based on yeast successes or failures via ~12.5% strong ales? Any advice will help, seeing as this will be my first mega brew.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 24, 2014, 01:19:01 AM
More than the yeast strain, I hear that mash temp is critical to set up the yeast for success - low and long.  But for an English style BW, you can finish it with some Champagne yeast, if the yeast selected happen to poop out.  The 12.5% ABV is pretty high for most standard English yeast strains, but they may be up to the task.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 24, 2014, 01:23:13 AM
WLP 1028 is not a bad choice.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 24, 2014, 01:23:41 AM
I guess WLP 099 is English Strong Ale strain FWIW...all the way to 25% ABV, supposedly.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: sambates on July 24, 2014, 01:36:19 AM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: Jeff M on July 24, 2014, 01:50:41 AM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: morticaixavier on July 24, 2014, 03:23:06 AM
mash at 148 and skip the specialty grains is my suggestion. 12.5 is fine for dry english. I've done that without trouble in the past.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 11:52:51 AM
I've always stuck with wlpoo7 for my English style barley wines and have great success with that strain for that style.

I personally find that the sweet spot for English BW is 9-10%. Much higher than this I find them less enjoyable. But then again, I'm not a fan of many beers over 10%.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 24, 2014, 12:07:21 PM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes
He has not said what the OG was. A FG of 1.026 is in the range for a beer that starts at 1.100+. I brewed one 3 weeks back that had an OG of 1.115, and used Wyeast 1028. I might rack to a keg today, and will see what the FG is. Will report back when I know. It was a Thomas Hardy clone.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 02:04:01 PM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes
He has not said what the OG was. A FG of 1.026 is in the range for a beer that starts at 1.100+. I brewed one 3 weeks back that had an OG of 1.115, and used Wyeast 1028. I might rack to a keg today, and will see what the FG is. Will report back when I know. It was a Thomas Hardy clone.

+1. You wouldn't want an unusually dry barley wine. Most of my RIS starting over 1.100 finish above 1.020. An OG wort that starts at 1.100 and finishes at 1.020 would be 80% aa, which is probably about as dry as you would want.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 24, 2014, 02:08:58 PM
FWIW, my last 1.100 BW finished at 1.023 IIRC.  I thought it was about the perfect FG for that beer - not too sweet, not unusually dry.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: sambates on July 24, 2014, 02:22:55 PM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes
He has not said what the OG was. A FG of 1.026 is in the range for a beer that starts at 1.100+. I brewed one 3 weeks back that had an OG of 1.115, and used Wyeast 1028. I might rack to a keg today, and will see what the FG is. Will report back when I know. It was a Thomas Hardy clone.

I'm doing a partigyle mash:
First runnings - Barleywine OG: 1.110 (46 IBUs)
Second runnings - Alt OG: 1.055 (35 IBUs)

Grist:
28# MO
2# Biscuit
1# Special B
1/2# 40L
1/2# 80L
1/2# 120L
1/2# Chocolate [add for Alt vorlauf/sparge]

Looking through the description, Wy1028 may be a perfect fit. I've changed some things around and dropped some #'s of base malt so that my gravity isn't so high. Had to sleep on it a little.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: morticaixavier on July 24, 2014, 02:36:30 PM
this is also something of a personal preference but a 46 IBU barley wine is going to taste sweet almost no matter what the FG is. even english barley wine needs a solid hop bitterness to balance all that sweetness from the alcohol not to mention the residual sugars I would aim for closer to 80 for that beer but again, personal preference. I don't care for sweet barley wine that much.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 24, 2014, 02:43:41 PM
this is also something of a personal preference but a 46 IBU barley wine is going to taste sweet almost no matter what the FG is. even english barley wine needs a solid hop bitterness to balance all that sweetness from the alcohol not to mention the residual sugars I would aim for closer to 80 for that beer but again, personal preference. I don't care for sweet barley wine that much.

+1.  And by the time it ages a bit, that bitterness will fade some too.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 02:56:49 PM
Couple of things strike me as off. That's a hell of a lot of crystal malt and that won't taste anything like an alt, though it may be a fine beer non-the-less.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: sambates on July 24, 2014, 03:07:28 PM
this is also something of a personal preference but a 46 IBU barley wine is going to taste sweet almost no matter what the FG is. even english barley wine needs a solid hop bitterness to balance all that sweetness from the alcohol not to mention the residual sugars I would aim for closer to 80 for that beer but again, personal preference. I don't care for sweet barley wine that much.

I was basing my IBUs off North Coast Old Stock (~34 IBUs), which is a beer I really love, since I've never really made a huge BW before.

Couple of things strike me as off. That's a hell of a lot of crystal malt and that won't taste anything like an alt, though it may be a fine beer non-the-less.

Even with MO as the base, as opposed to Pils, it's way off from an Alt. I know that and I wasn't necessarily trying to hit the Alt style perfectly, but I figured it would be something fun to play with since I've got some 1007 on hand. I was torn doing a Nut Brown too, which would obviously be better as a second runnings with my grist.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 24, 2014, 03:11:38 PM
Couple of things strike me as off. That's a hell of a lot of crystal malt and that won't taste anything like an alt, though it may be a fine beer non-the-less.

My thought as well.

Something else to consider with the partigyle is that a big beer usually has worse efficiency than your normal beer so if you are planning your recipe around 70-80% efficiency you will probably hit 55-70% in reality, which may not leave you a lot of fermentable sugar for the partigyle. You can keep sparging to try to improve efficiency but once the runnings get low gravity you start increasing the risk for tannin extraction.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 03:15:20 PM
this is also something of a personal preference but a 46 IBU barley wine is going to taste sweet almost no matter what the FG is. even english barley wine needs a solid hop bitterness to balance all that sweetness from the alcohol not to mention the residual sugars I would aim for closer to 80 for that beer but again, personal preference. I don't care for sweet barley wine that much.

I was basing my IBUs off North Coast Old Stock (~34 IBUs), which is a beer I really love, since I've never really made a huge BW before.

Couple of things strike me as off. That's a hell of a lot of crystal malt and that won't taste anything like an alt, though it may be a fine beer non-the-less.

Even with MO as the base, as opposed to Pils, it's way off from an Alt. I know that and I wasn't necessarily trying to hit the Alt style perfectly, but I figured it would be something fun to play with since I've got some 1007 on hand. I was torn doing a Nut Brown too, which would obviously be better as a second runnings with my grist.


Alt or not, call it what you want. But for any beer 2.5 lbs of crystal is too much per 10 gallon batch. You will already have cloying qualities in your BW due to left over unfermentable sugars. IME what you are creating here is going to be overly cloying, sweetish and not very drinkable. Consider cutting the crystal in half, at least.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: erockrph on July 24, 2014, 03:16:34 PM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes
He has not said what the OG was. A FG of 1.026 is in the range for a beer that starts at 1.100+. I brewed one 3 weeks back that had an OG of 1.115, and used Wyeast 1028. I might rack to a keg today, and will see what the FG is. Will report back when I know. It was a Thomas Hardy clone.

TH Clone? Recipe please :)

The main keys are oxygenation, fermentability of your wort, and a HUGE pitch of yeast. Honestly, 12.5% isn't terribly high for an ABV. I think most yeast strains can handle it, but some will be more attenuative than others.

My most recent barleywine was 100% MO with an OG of 1.142 and finished at 1.024, for an abv in the 15.5%-18% range (depending on which calculation you use). I used the WLP037 (Yorkshire Square), and pitched on about 2/3 of the cake from a 1.056ish brew.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: sambates on July 24, 2014, 04:01:27 PM

Alt or not, call it what you want. But for any beer 2.5 lbs of crystal is too much per 10 gallon batch. You will already have cloying qualities in your BW due to left over unfermentable sugars. IME what you are creating here is going to be overly cloying, sweetish and not very drinkable. Consider cutting the crystal in half, at least.

I agree with you in regards to the Alt being too much crystal, which is why I was toying with doing a brown instead. Additionally, I've made great beers with 2.5# of crystal without being cloyingly sweet. In the grand scheme of the grist, I think it's still a small percentage. We each have our own preferences though.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 04:30:06 PM
Probably personal preference. I've had a lot of beers, homebrew and commercial, that I didn't enjoy more than a few oz of.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: Joe T on July 24, 2014, 04:48:57 PM
I know it's not what you're looking for but wlp670 American farmhouse blend makes a very nice barleywine. It took my 1.106 BW down to 1.016. It took about a year for the brett to finish up but worth the wait. It had a wonderful fruity flavor when young and it continues to develop in the bottle. Last one I tried tasted of dried figs and dates.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 04:53:07 PM
Probably personal preference. I've had a lot of beers, homebrew and commercial, that I didn't enjoy more than a few oz of.

Sounded wrong. I should have said beer's I didn't enjoy more than a few oz of but that I know other people really enjoyed.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: erockrph on July 24, 2014, 04:54:14 PM

Alt or not, call it what you want. But for any beer 2.5 lbs of crystal is too much per 10 gallon batch. You will already have cloying qualities in your BW due to left over unfermentable sugars. IME what you are creating here is going to be overly cloying, sweetish and not very drinkable. Consider cutting the crystal in half, at least.

I agree with you in regards to the Alt being too much crystal, which is why I was toying with doing a brown instead. Additionally, I've made great beers with 2.5# of crystal without being cloyingly sweet. In the grand scheme of the grist, I think it's still a small percentage. We each have our own preferences though.

I think you might run into attenuation issues with your BW with that much crystal. I like the Nut Brown partigyle idea. Maybe you want to reserve some of the Crystal to cap the mash for your 2nd gyle.

I know it's not what you're looking for but wlp670 American farmhouse blend makes a very nice barleywine. It took my 1.106 BW down to 1.016. It took about a year for the brett to finish up but worth the wait. It had a wonderful fruity flavor when young and it continues to develop in the bottle. Last one I tried tasted of dried figs and dates.

As far an non-traditional BW yeasts go, WY1762 works really well, too.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 05:11:03 PM
Yes, attenuation was my main concern but I also always keep my crystal malt on the low end, except in very rare cases. I'm just not a fan of the strong flavor of crystal. For my tastes that much dark crystal would not be enjoyable. Some of my best BW have been 100% maris otter and when I have added crystal malt I have use sugar to dry the beer out. But that's just the way I approach. I certainly don't want to say my way to the only way. (Although, it is for me. ;) )
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 24, 2014, 05:14:34 PM
Yes, attenuation was my main concern but I also always keep my crystal malt on the low end, except in very rare cases. I'm just not a fan of the strong flavor of crystal. For my tastes that much dark crystal would not be enjoyable. Some of my best BW have been 100% maris otter and when I have added crystal malt I have use sugar to dry the beer out. But that's just the way I approach. I certainly don't want to say my way to the only way. (Although, it is for me. ;) )

+1.  Pretty much my approach.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 24, 2014, 05:33:00 PM
The Barleywine I did was all British Pale ale malts, no crystal. I had MO, Pearl, and Golden Promise to use up!
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: denny on July 24, 2014, 05:55:19 PM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes

I don't think 1.026 is too high at all for a beer like that.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: erockrph on July 24, 2014, 06:12:48 PM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes

I don't think 1.026 is too high at all for a beer like that.
+1 - Good catch. A lot of good English Barleywines are sippin' beers. One of the best beer bars I've ever been to (no longer in business, unfortunately) served Thomas Hardy in a cordial glass. I was a little caught off guard at the time, but it worked and it definitely changed the way I think about certain beers.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 24, 2014, 07:21:05 PM
Mine went to the kegs a little bit a go. I had split the batch.
Wyeast 1028 1.115 OG 1.028 FG  11.4% ABV 74% Attenuation
WLP 022 1.115 OG 1.024 FG 11.9% ABV 77% Attenuation

Samples tasted pretty nice. I will see how they mature, and can always blend.

Gordon's beer was 1.123 OG and 1.034 FG. He used 1028.

Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2014, 07:57:45 PM

I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes

I don't think 1.026 is too high at all for a beer like that.

Agree, in fact I think you might have problems getting it too much lower with out some sugar.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 25, 2014, 04:41:34 AM

More than the yeast strain, I hear that mash temp is critical to set up the yeast for success - low and long.  But for an English style BW, you can finish it with some Champagne yeast, if the yeast selected happen to poop out.  The 12.5% ABV is pretty high for most standard English yeast strains, but they may be up to the task.

I wouldn't use champagne yeast to finish. I've done that in the past and found it to not be as neutral a yeast as people like to think.

Make a big pitch of whichever yeast you choose, oxygenate, and that should be enough.

I like wy1968 and have found it to attenuate well in a big beer. It's what I use in my old ale.

I'm also not certain that 2.5 lbs of crystal is too much for ten gallons. But I also use sugar in big beers to get them to be drier and more drinkable. So take that for what it's worth. Maybe cut back on the crystal if you're not going to use sugar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 25, 2014, 01:56:58 PM
Theoretically champagne yeast should be less attenuative in a maltose environment since champagne yeast has evolved to ferment in a fructose environment.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: morticaixavier on July 25, 2014, 02:33:44 PM
Theoretically champagne yeast should be less attenuative in a maltose environment since champagne yeast has evolved to ferment in a fructose environment.

I have thrown champagne yeast at stuck fermentations on two occasions and both times it did nothing at all. one time I pitched two packets of dry champagne into 5 gallons of RIS stuck at 1.036 and it touched it not a jot.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: Stevie on July 25, 2014, 02:40:11 PM
Theoretically champagne yeast should be less attenuative in a maltose environment since champagne yeast has evolved to ferment in a fructose environment.

I have thrown champagne yeast at stuck fermentations on two occasions and both times it did nothing at all. one time I pitched two packets of dry champagne into 5 gallons of RIS stuck at 1.036 and it touched it not a jot.


Was it re-hydrated?
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: morticaixavier on July 25, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Theoretically champagne yeast should be less attenuative in a maltose environment since champagne yeast has evolved to ferment in a fructose environment.

I have thrown champagne yeast at stuck fermentations on two occasions and both times it did nothing at all. one time I pitched two packets of dry champagne into 5 gallons of RIS stuck at 1.036 and it touched it not a jot.


Was it re-hydrated?

no probably not.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: Stevie on July 25, 2014, 02:51:58 PM
I imagine tossing sleeping yeast into a high alcohol environment won't accomplish much. When I add yeast at bottling, I rehydrate just in case.

I'm sure our resident yeast expert can confirm or deny.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 25, 2014, 03:08:11 PM
I definitely think the champagne yeast thing is an old homebrewer myth. The times I have used it in small experiments it hasn't performed well. One exception is it works very well as a bottle condition yeast. Works fast at bottle conditioning sucrose. Never had it drive the beer down any further (of course, the beer was highly attenuated already.)

Back in the day I tried champagne yeast on stuck fermentations and I, too, experienced it doing absolutely nothing. I seem to remember somewhere someone did a side by side batch on 100% 2-row basemalt and chico fermented a good bit dryer than champagne yeast. But can't remember much about it or where I heard it.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: sambates on July 25, 2014, 03:44:05 PM

More than the yeast strain, I hear that mash temp is critical to set up the yeast for success - low and long.  But for an English style BW, you can finish it with some Champagne yeast, if the yeast selected happen to poop out.  The 12.5% ABV is pretty high for most standard English yeast strains, but they may be up to the task.

I wouldn't use champagne yeast to finish. I've done that in the past and found it to not be as neutral a yeast as people like to think.

Make a big pitch of whichever yeast you choose, oxygenate, and that should be enough.

I like wy1968 and have found it to attenuate well in a big beer. It's what I use in my old ale.

I'm also not certain that 2.5 lbs of crystal is too much for ten gallons. But I also use sugar in big beers to get them to be drier and more drinkable. So take that for what it's worth. Maybe cut back on the crystal if you're not going to use sugar.


I cut the crystal down to 2#, but I will wait to see how the yeast attenuates before I add any sugar. If I need it lower, I'll add some invert sugar after I get a stable FG. I don't think I'll have any issues getting the beer to where I need it.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: denny on July 25, 2014, 06:46:58 PM
Theoretically champagne yeast should be less attenuative in a maltose environment since champagne yeast has evolved to ferment in a fructose environment.

I have thrown champagne yeast at stuck fermentations on two occasions and both times it did nothing at all. one time I pitched two packets of dry champagne into 5 gallons of RIS stuck at 1.036 and it touched it not a jot.

I thi9nk y9our experience is pretty typical, Jonathan.  It's just another of those homebrew myths that refuses to die.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: denny on July 25, 2014, 06:49:11 PM
I cut the crystal down to 2#, but I will wait to see how the yeast attenuates before I add any sugar. If I need it lower, I'll add some invert sugar after I get a stable FG. I don't think I'll have any issues getting the beer to where I need it.

Sugar would help it attenuate if you had subbed some sugar for base malt.  But if it's having problems attenuating, adding sugar will jsut raise the gravity and exacerbate the problem.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 25, 2014, 07:07:29 PM
Theoretically champagne yeast should be less attenuative in a maltose environment since champagne yeast has evolved to ferment in a fructose environment.

I have thrown champagne yeast at stuck fermentations on two occasions and both times it did nothing at all. one time I pitched two packets of dry champagne into 5 gallons of RIS stuck at 1.036 and it touched it not a jot.

I thi9nk y9our experience is pretty typical, Jonathan.  It's just another of those homebrew myths that refuses to die.

I don't recall the impact on gravity, but I do know it imparted flavor.  I did not care for it, haven't done it since.  Probably was the early 2000s when I tried it.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 25, 2014, 07:08:10 PM
Theoretically champagne yeast should be less attenuative in a maltose environment since champagne yeast has evolved to ferment in a fructose environment.

I have thrown champagne yeast at stuck fermentations on two occasions and both times it did nothing at all. one time I pitched two packets of dry champagne into 5 gallons of RIS stuck at 1.036 and it touched it not a jot.

I thi9nk y9our experience is pretty typical, Jonathan.  It's just another of those homebrew myths that refuses to die.

You could be right - I have only used it to bottle condition a well aged monster (Lord Fatbottom from NB), where the original yeast was just plain spent after 3 months aging in the secondary.  It finished off the BW nicely, but maybe it just carbed the brew and that made the difference in the perception of the cloying-ness drop....so, I withdraw the champagne yeast suggestion for all but carbonation purposes with these big boys.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: sambates on July 28, 2014, 02:33:22 AM
Good to know all! I will try to post back how it turns out, but with Barleywines I don't expect that to be soon.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 28, 2014, 03:49:30 PM
Good to know all! I will try to post back how it turns out, but with Barleywines I don't expect that to be soon.
With proper technique a barley wine can be ready in less time than a lager. It will be fresh, but enjoyable. If you want those aged flavors, that does take time.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: The Professor on July 28, 2014, 04:32:38 PM
I'm currently planning to mash at 151. When formulating my recipe, BeerSmith says I should hit 1.026 FG. Then again, you really can never nail the FG perfectly with bigger beers. Only about 9% specialty grains, so I'm thinking that will also help the attenuation.

Got a recipe? 1.026 sounds kinda high.  I would mash at 148 for 90-120 minutes

I don't think 1.026 is too high at all for a beer like that.

+1
That's about where I would expect a good barleywine/Burton ale to end up, hopefully (and properly) with a mildly sweet finish.
I also wouldn't even consider drinking it until it's aged at least one year (or preferably longer)...all the more reason to brew it more often. ;D
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: bluesman on July 28, 2014, 04:37:06 PM
I recommend starting the English Barleywine off with 002, then pitching a small active starter of 001 after about 75% attenuation to help it finish a little drier.  This will give you the English ester profile, while also allowing the beer to finish a little drier through use of the Chico strain.  The best of both worlds in one beer.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: majorvices on July 28, 2014, 05:14:04 PM

I recommend starting the English Barleywine off with 002, then pitching a small active starter of 001 after about 75% attenuation to help it finish a little drier.  This will give you the English ester profile, while also allowing the beer to finish a little drier through use of the Chico strain.  The best of both worlds in one beer.

Why not just use WLP007?
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: klickitat jim on July 28, 2014, 05:16:32 PM
I cut the crystal down to 2#, but I will wait to see how the yeast attenuates before I add any sugar. If I need it lower, I'll add some invert sugar after I get a stable FG. I don't think I'll have any issues getting the beer to where I need it.

Sugar would help it attenuate if you had subbed some sugar for base malt.  But if it's having problems attenuating, adding sugar will jsut raise the gravity and exacerbate the problem.

I think a lot of people don't get this. The common thought is that adding sugar dries out the beer. Thats only half right. If a certain grain bill is going to leave 10 points of unfermentable sugars, ADDING cane sugar does not SUBTRACT those 10 points. If you subtract those points from the grain bill and replace them with cane, you end up with less unfermentable sugars at the end, but still the same OG. Therefore, not the same plan as "add sugar to dry it out"
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: erockrph on July 28, 2014, 06:52:26 PM
+1 - It should be phrased as "SUBSTITUTE sugar to dry it out"
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 28, 2014, 06:55:41 PM
+1 - It should be phrased as "SUBSTITUTE sugar to dry it out"

+2
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: bluesman on July 29, 2014, 04:44:32 PM

I recommend starting the English Barleywine off with 002, then pitching a small active starter of 001 after about 75% attenuation to help it finish a little drier.  This will give you the English ester profile, while also allowing the beer to finish a little drier through use of the Chico strain.  The best of both worlds in one beer.

Why not just use WLP007?

That too!
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 30, 2014, 03:49:49 PM
I cut the crystal down to 2#, but I will wait to see how the yeast attenuates before I add any sugar. If I need it lower, I'll add some invert sugar after I get a stable FG. I don't think I'll have any issues getting the beer to where I need it.

Sugar would help it attenuate if you had subbed some sugar for base malt.  But if it's having problems attenuating, adding sugar will jsut raise the gravity and exacerbate the problem.

I think a lot of people don't get this. The common thought is that adding sugar dries out the beer. Thats only half right. If a certain grain bill is going to leave 10 points of unfermentable sugars, ADDING cane sugar does not SUBTRACT those 10 points. If you subtract those points from the grain bill and replace them with cane, you end up with less unfermentable sugars at the end, but still the same OG. Therefore, not the same plan as "add sugar to dry it out"

And to add to this, if your yeast are maxed out and you add more sugar you may not even convince the yeast to push through all that extra sugar and then you'll end up with more sweetness rather than less.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: archstanton on July 30, 2014, 04:35:16 PM
I cut the crystal down to 2#, but I will wait to see how the yeast attenuates before I add any sugar. If I need it lower, I'll add some invert sugar after I get a stable FG. I don't think I'll have any issues getting the beer to where I need it.

Sugar would help it attenuate if you had subbed some sugar for base malt.  But if it's having problems attenuating, adding sugar will jsut raise the gravity and exacerbate the problem.

I think a lot of people don't get this. The common thought is that adding sugar dries out the beer. Thats only half right. If a certain grain bill is going to leave 10 points of unfermentable sugars, ADDING cane sugar does not SUBTRACT those 10 points. If you subtract those points from the grain bill and replace them with cane, you end up with less unfermentable sugars at the end, but still the same OG. Therefore, not the same plan as "add sugar to dry it out"

Interesting, so what you are saying is that if I add a pound of cane sugar into a recipe of say 12# of maris otter that resulting beer will not be perceived as drier than  a beer from the 12#'s alone?
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: morticaixavier on July 30, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
I cut the crystal down to 2#, but I will wait to see how the yeast attenuates before I add any sugar. If I need it lower, I'll add some invert sugar after I get a stable FG. I don't think I'll have any issues getting the beer to where I need it.

Sugar would help it attenuate if you had subbed some sugar for base malt.  But if it's having problems attenuating, adding sugar will jsut raise the gravity and exacerbate the problem.

I think a lot of people don't get this. The common thought is that adding sugar dries out the beer. Thats only half right. If a certain grain bill is going to leave 10 points of unfermentable sugars, ADDING cane sugar does not SUBTRACT those 10 points. If you subtract those points from the grain bill and replace them with cane, you end up with less unfermentable sugars at the end, but still the same OG. Therefore, not the same plan as "add sugar to dry it out"

Interesting, so what you are saying is that if I add a pound of cane sugar into a recipe of say 12# of maris otter that resulting beer will not be perceived as drier than  a beer from the 12#'s alone?

not significantly. there will be slightly more alcohol and should be no perceptible change otherwise. now, if you  added say 5 lbs of sugar to the 12 lb of MO you would end up with a noticably higher alcohol sensation and a very difference beer, and the FG might well be slightly lower than the 12# MO alone because alcohol is less dense than water or sugar solution.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: klickitat jim on July 30, 2014, 04:52:03 PM
I can't guess what another person will perceive. I'm just saying that it will still have the same unfermented sugar. One would be (for example) a 1.060 beer that finished at 1.015 then the one with sugar added would be like 1.070 but still finishing at 1.015.  If you did that same set of beer but substituted instead of adding... both OGs would be the same but the one will sugar substituted for grain woul finish much lower.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: archstanton on July 30, 2014, 10:48:21 PM
 I have not seen anyone claim that you will ferment those leftover sugars by adding simple sugar. Merely that apparent attenuation will increase, which will increase the alcohol, which will increase the perception of dryness. FG without knowing OG is a very difficult means by which to assess how dry a beer might be. Apparent attenuation can give you a really good idea.

A pound of sugar in my example would/could increase the abv from say 6% to 7%, which I would say is significant(I'm a lightweight), and would create a different beer- drier for instance.  Hence the use of simple sugar to help "dry out a beer". 

Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: morticaixavier on July 30, 2014, 10:58:20 PM
I have not seen anyone claim that you will ferment those leftover sugars by adding simple sugar. Merely that apparent attenuation will increase, which will increase the alcohol, which will increase the perception of dryness. FG without knowing OG is a very difficult means by which to assess how dry a beer might be. Apparent attenuation can give you a really good idea.

A pound of sugar in my example would/could increase the abv from say 6% to 7%, which I would say is significant(I'm a lightweight), and would create a different beer- drier for instance.  Hence the use of simple sugar to help "dry out a beer". 

Am I missing something here?

i don't perceive a 7% beer with a 1.015 FG as any drier than a 6% beer with an FG of 1.015. in fact, I find higher alcohol content to taste sweeter rather than drier. I have at home a wheat wine that started at 1.104 and finished around 1.007 because of 3 lb of simple sugar. it tastes quite dry indeed but the alcohol still provides a very nice sweetness even as it evaporates off the tongue.

what we are trying to say is that a 6% beer made with all malt and a 6% beer made with malt and table sugar will have significantly different perceived dryness/sweetness. While a 6% beer and a 7% beer can taste quite difference because of the alcohol, if the extra alcohol comes from table sugar alone the perception of sweetness will not change significantly.

Adding simple sugar to a recipe is good for

a) bumping gravity and therefore ABV with minimal flavor/body change. this is the case when you simply ADD sugar to your recipe.
b) lightening body without change in ABV. this is the case when you SUBSTITUTE sugar for some of the malt as in a belgian beer.

take a belgian blonde around 6% and compare it to an american amber at about 6%. It will seem as if the belgian blonde is much lighter and dryer. More digestible as the belgians put it. while the Amber will be quite sweet and malty in comparison.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 30, 2014, 11:09:01 PM
What Mort said...... that pretty much covers it.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: archstanton on July 30, 2014, 11:16:25 PM
So you are saying that alcohol does not lead to a perception of dryness?

If I make a margarita too sweet, I can dry it out by adding more tequila. No?

Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: klickitat jim on July 30, 2014, 11:23:02 PM
So you are saying that alcohol does not lead to a perception of dryness?

If I make a margarita too sweet, I can dry it out by adding more tequila. No?

Kinda but you're diluting the volume of liquid with liquid tequila in that comparison. The tequila is adding alcohol but its also reducing the total percentage of margarita mixer.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: archstanton on July 30, 2014, 11:40:40 PM
So you are saying that alcohol does not lead to a perception of dryness?

If I make a margarita too sweet, I can dry it out by adding more tequila. No?

Kinda but you're diluting the volume of liquid with liquid tequila in that comparison. The tequila is adding alcohol but its also reducing the total percentage of margarita mixer.

Well I could add water but it just doesn't have that puckering dry quality that alcohol does,. It would be watered down like some poor low abv beers, taking away sweetness but but not adding any dryness. At least that is how I perceive it, certainly not sweet a
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: archstanton on July 31, 2014, 12:08:44 AM
I have not seen anyone claim that you will ferment those leftover sugars by adding simple sugar. Merely that apparent attenuation will increase, which will increase the alcohol, which will increase the perception of dryness. FG without knowing OG is a very difficult means by which to assess how dry a beer might be. Apparent attenuation can give you a really good idea.

A pound of sugar in my example would/could increase the abv from say 6% to 7%, which I would say is significant(I'm a lightweight), and would create a different beer- drier for instance.  Hence the use of simple sugar to help "dry out a beer". 

Am I missing something here?

i don't perceive a 7% beer with a 1.015 FG as any drier than a 6% beer with an FG of 1.015. in fact, I find higher alcohol content to taste sweeter rather than drier. I have at home a wheat wine that started at 1.104 and finished around 1.007 because of 3 lb of simple sugar. it tastes quite dry indeed but the alcohol still provides a very nice sweetness even as it evaporates off the tongue.

what we are trying to say is that a 6% beer made with all malt and a 6% beer made with malt and table sugar will have significantly different perceived dryness/sweetness. While a 6% beer and a 7% beer can taste quite difference because of the alcohol, if the extra alcohol comes from table sugar alone the perception of sweetness will not change significantly.

Adding simple sugar to a recipe is good for

a) bumping gravity and therefore ABV with minimal flavor/body change. this is the case when you simply ADD sugar to your recipe.
b) lightening body without change in ABV. this is the case when you SUBSTITUTE sugar for some of the malt as in a belgian beer.

take a belgian blonde around 6% and compare it to an american amber at about 6%. It will seem as if the belgian blonde is much lighter and dryer. More digestible as the belgians put it. while the Amber will be quite sweet and malty in comparison.

Well thanks for the response. Your wheat wine example is, well it seems you are aware that the amount of residual sugar is unknown, so the numbers start to lose meaning somewhat.

Alcohol to me is never sweet.
a) this is where we disagree, I guess I find much more than a minimal impact on body, minimal to me a a step above insignificant. The same beer 7% vs 6% is drier to me with only more sugar added.
b) no one has claimed any differently that I have come across

 This is very specific to exact worts with the only difference being simple sugar was added to one and not the other.  I guess you are trying to use the alcohol % as some indicator. I guess I perceive alcohol as dry, while you perceive it as sweet. But in b above, you are changing the percentage of alcohol to residual sugar, just as you are doing in a. However only b produces the effect of "dryness"?
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: klickitat jim on July 31, 2014, 02:45:13 AM
One point we are trying to make is the residual sugar I guess. Concider three recipes. A: has 10 lbs 2 row B: has 8 lbs 2 row and 1 pound cane sugar C: has 10 lbs two row, then late in fermentation a pound of cane sugar is added. All have the same mash temp, boil time, hop schedule, yeast and temp.

Compared to A, B will be dryer, C will be bigger and maybe seem drier than A but not as dry as B. A and C will have a higher final gravity than B.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: erockrph on July 31, 2014, 04:36:48 AM
Maybe there's a bit of semantics at play here on the concept of dryness. I think most of us are using the definition as "lack of sweetness" as opposed to a literal drying sensation on the palate. If you have the same amount of residual sugar in two similar beers, then the dryness level would pretty much be the same.

And I definitely agree with the statement that alcohol can leave the impression of sweetness. And I'm not the only one who thinks so: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10940547
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: morticaixavier on July 31, 2014, 11:26:22 AM
My point is that in an all barley beer with a og of 1.050 say and an fg of 1.010 had approximately 10 gravity points worth or residual sugar remaining. If you simply add 1 lb of take sugar to the recipe your og goes up to about 1.058 but your og stays the same. The absolute amount of ending sugar has not changed as the table sugar is effectively 100% fermentable. To my palette the additional alcohol will have minimal flavor or mouth feel impact. If, however you substitute 1lb of malt for 1lb table sugar your og stays about the same but your initial 80% apparent attenuation on the Barley portion of the wort stays the same so 42 - (42 * .8 ) = 8.2 or an fg of 1.0082. The absolute amount of residual sugar has been reduced.

On your margarita example, as Jim pointed out, you are diluting significantly a very very sweet liquid with a much much less sweet liquid. If you poured an extra shot of vodka into a pint of beer then it would seem dryer after but the amount of alcohol in a pint of beer created by an extra pounds of sugar in 5 gallons of beer is insignificant. On the perception of sweetness, it may be that you don't get any sweetness from alcohol. I absolutely do and if I under hop a really big beer, even if it comes out with a very low fg it still tastes too sweet.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: Joe T on July 31, 2014, 06:12:32 PM
The reason higher alcohol beers taste sweeter is because they are sweeter, as in more sugar. The specific gravity of alcohol is lower than the SG of water. So a high alcohol beer with a FG of 1.010 has more sugar than a low alcohol beer with a FG of 1.010 because the alcohol of the high gravity beer is drivin the FG lower and thus takes more sugar to bring the gravity up to 1.010. And even a low alcohol beer with a FG of 1.010 has more than 10 points of residual sugar.
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: klickitat jim on July 31, 2014, 07:29:48 PM
It should be noted that if a person tastes alcohol as dry rather than sweet, they are not wrong. That's what they are tasting.

But my tongue tells me that a rum and coke is sweeter than a coke.

In any event, it was fun trying
Title: Re: Barleywine Yeast Suggestions
Post by: archstanton on August 01, 2014, 03:25:28 AM
Erockrph, thanks for the link. Interesting stuff, learned something new. As it said "approximately 30% could taste sweet and/or sour"  Looks like we have a bunch of them here and they are all posting, what are the odds?

Thanks for the responses guys, I think what you are trying to tell me is: when you are talking about drying out a beer, you mean specifically and exactly that you are talking about how much apparent residual sugar is left and absolutely nothing else. If so, got it.