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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: kramerog on August 12, 2014, 07:40:52 PM

Title: Roeselare Blend
Post by: kramerog on August 12, 2014, 07:40:52 PM
I was thinking about using Roeselare Blend to make a Flemish red in a 26-gal barrel.  Per Wyeast, I'm not supposed to make a starter as I'll disturb the precise proporations of brewers yeast, lacto, brett, flor and pedio.  Should I then pitch 5 or 6 separate packages of Roesealare?  Call me cheap but I'm hoping to avoid that expense.  Is there a different/better way?
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: morticaixavier on August 12, 2014, 07:55:29 PM
say eff that and make a starter?

make starters of each of the yeasts and bacteria on their own and blend them (after doing cell counts and analysis) to the proportions you determine through examination of a single pitch of the blend from whitelabs?

personally I'd either pitch the proper number of tubes (if I was attached to theoretically having exactly the same pitch as roeselare uses) or brew a 3 gallon batch with 1 tube and repitch into the big batch.

isn't it common perception that this blend is better on repitch anyway?
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: kramerog on August 12, 2014, 08:40:09 PM
How about if I pitch the Roeselare blend in 5-gallons in primary and make a yeast-only starter for the rest of the batch? 
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: klickitat jim on August 13, 2014, 01:43:27 AM
I've used roesalare twice, on the same day, and just added my fruit additions this past weekend, so I don't have the real experience. However, my answer would be that it depends on if you were shooting for an exact result of an upscaled 5 gallon batch. If so you need five packs. Trying to grow it up in a starter, they say, will alter the percentages of the original blend because the saccharomyces is going to reproduce at a different rate than the bugs. In other words, you're pitching roesalare into the starter but in a couple days it won't be roesalare any more. It will be a lot more saccharomyces than the original.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: ynotbrusum on August 13, 2014, 11:48:36 AM
I've wondered the same thing in terms of repitching the slurry - I chickened out and got more fresh yeast/bugs with a new vial...but a neighbor says that the bugs will be fine on the re-pitch, so your choice.  With such a big batch, though, it is a risk.  You could up your odds by including some lactose or maltodextrine in the wort - something that only the bugs can ferment.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: reverseapachemaster on August 13, 2014, 02:33:51 PM
I would pitch enough healthy sacc to ferment the batch along with 1-2 packages of the sour blend.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: morticaixavier on August 13, 2014, 02:36:15 PM
I'm not sure that there would be more sacc than bugs after a starter. it might well be the other way around as bacteria tend to reproduce faster than yeast (IIRC)
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: klickitat jim on August 13, 2014, 05:11:09 PM
That's entirely likely Jonathan. In either case, if you are doing a sanitary starter of a homogeneous yeast, it should result in more of the same. But something tells me that sac yeast, lacto, bret, and pedio dont all reproduce at the same rate under the same conditions.  So a blend starter won't have the same percentages of each at the end. Though if you were going to let the beer ferment for a long time it might turn out very similar in the end as each bug develops and does its job. Maybe someone should do a side by side experiment with triangle tasting.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: ynotbrusum on August 13, 2014, 06:29:32 PM
I think that the yeast is the first to the table, but the bugs can consume a more diverse set of "nutrients".  But that is just based on my recollection of Michael Tonsmeire's NHC talk - I haven't gotten through his book, yet.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on August 13, 2014, 08:04:45 PM
Did you plan to make several 5 gallon batches to fill the barrel or do you have a larger capacity?

The balance of yeast/bacteria in Roselare is supposed to allow Lacto to produce sufficient acidity before alcoholic fermentation begins. It also has enough sacch to complete primary fermentation so that the bretta will work during conditioning.

Lactic acid production is the main point. You want lactobacillus to produce acid before alcoholic fermentation begins.

I've never filled a barrel, but I would attack it like this:

If you're making multiple batches to fill the barrel, take advantage of it. Sour some the batches with a pure lacto culture (Wyeast 5335) or a sour mash (I recommend the former). For the others, pitch rehydrated dry yeast for a clean primary fermentation. Pitch the Roselare blend in one of the 'clean' batches along with the dry yeast.

When the batches have soured / completed fermentation, allow them to settle and then rack into the barrel. This will minimize trub/yeast carryover.

The blend of sour/'clean' batches is up to you - depends how sour you like it.

If you can make 25-30 gal in one shot, I would pre-sour the batch, pitch plenty of yeast + the blend, then rack to the barrel after primary is complete.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: kramerog on August 14, 2014, 08:25:11 PM
Did you plan to make several 5 gallon batches to fill the barrel or do you have a larger capacity?

The balance of yeast/bacteria in Roselare is supposed to allow Lacto to produce sufficient acidity before alcoholic fermentation begins. It also has enough sacch to complete primary fermentation so that the bretta will work during conditioning.

Lactic acid production is the main point. You want lactobacillus to produce acid before alcoholic fermentation begins.

I've never filled a barrel, but I would attack it like this:

If you're making multiple batches to fill the barrel, take advantage of it. Sour some the batches with a pure lacto culture (Wyeast 5335) or a sour mash (I recommend the former). For the others, pitch rehydrated dry yeast for a clean primary fermentation. Pitch the Roselare blend in one of the 'clean' batches along with the dry yeast.

When the batches have soured / completed fermentation, allow them to settle and then rack into the barrel. This will minimize trub/yeast carryover.

The blend of sour/'clean' batches is up to you - depends how sour you like it.

If you can make 25-30 gal in one shot, I would pre-sour the batch, pitch plenty of yeast + the blend, then rack to the barrel after primary is complete.

Thanks for the insight.  This should be easy for me to do as I do sour worting for Berliner Weiss. I will probably brew 2 batches and possibly topoff with some Berliner Weiss in case I run out of the Flemish red before filling the barrel.  I might go 100% lacto (no yeast) in one fermentors, mixed in another, Roeselare in another, and clean in the other one to three fermentors.

Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: ynotbrusum on August 14, 2014, 09:49:41 PM
100% Lacto would run into some issues IMHO.  Usually guys go with a sour mash or souring of the wort by pitching lacto, but then pitch Sacc when it gets to the point of being sour enough (days, not weeks, typically with this approach).  You are blending, so you may be able to save that batch for blending more in the future, if it gets a bit too strong on the sour note.  But sour is relative, just like hoppiness, I guess.  Some guys can't get enough of that sour - I prefer a bit of sour and mostly like the funk.  YMMV, of course.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: kramerog on August 15, 2014, 01:18:53 PM
Served a near 100% lacto BW at the last homebrew meeting without syrup. Too sour for some, not too sour for others.  I would monitor the lacto ferment for the Flemish Red so it doesn't go off the charts.

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: erockrph on August 15, 2014, 01:32:46 PM
Served a near 100% lacto BW at the last homebrew meeting without syrup. Too sour for some, not too sour for others.  I would monitor the lacto ferment for the Flemish Red so it doesn't go off the charts.

I have yet to have a Flanders Red that was too sour. Too acetic, yes; too sour, no.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on August 15, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
I have yet to have a Flanders Red that was too sour. Too acetic, yes; too sour, no.

+1

Lactobacillus wont give you too much acidity at Flanders Red alcohol levels.

Served a near 100% lacto BW at the last homebrew meeting without syrup. Too sour for some, not too sour for others.  I would monitor the lacto ferment for the Flemish Red so it doesn't go off the charts.

I've made rip-roaring sour berliner with Wyeast lacto (5335) and no hops. Low gravity + low (zero) IBU. Lots of ppl love the sour though. Always wondered if I could flip the tradition: err on the low side of acidity and make a sour 'syrup' for the sour fanatics. But that's another post...

At ~5-10 IBU, a Flanders won't get too sour.

Another good point: the specific strain of lacto is important. I recommend Wyeast 5335 for lactic production. Just tried the WL strain (677) for souring a Gose and it produced mostly alcohol; tastes like boring wheat beer.

If you know your way around a sour mash/wort, go for it. I've never been able to dial it in, so I opt for pitching a lacto culture before primary fermentation.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: brewinhard on August 15, 2014, 07:06:47 PM
If you have the capacity to brew up enough for your 26 gallon barrel all at once then here is what I would to-

4 wks in advance, brew up a simple flanders red recipe with 1 pack of WY Roselare.  Let it ferment out for 1 mos in primary. 

After 1 mos, brew up your 26 gallons for the barrel, rack the initial flanders red into secondary, and split up the yeast cake for your barrel beer (not sure if you planned on primary fermenting in the barrel or not).  You will have more than enough yeast/bacteria to ferment the barrel batch and the successive pitch of Roselare will get a bit sour a bit faster than the first pitch.  This will also give you a flanders red (the initial batch) for topping up the barrel or adding fruit too, etc...
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: reverseapachemaster on August 16, 2014, 03:31:24 PM
If you have the capacity to brew up enough for your 26 gallon barrel all at once then here is what I would to-

4 wks in advance, brew up a simple flanders red recipe with 1 pack of WY Roselare.  Let it ferment out for 1 mos in primary. 

After 1 mos, brew up your 26 gallons for the barrel, rack the initial flanders red into secondary, and split up the yeast cake for your barrel beer (not sure if you planned on primary fermenting in the barrel or not).  You will have more than enough yeast/bacteria to ferment the barrel batch and the successive pitch of Roselare will get a bit sour a bit faster than the first pitch.  This will also give you a flanders red (the initial batch) for topping up the barrel or adding fruit too, etc...

I'm not so sure this is a good idea. Within a month you will definitely have plenty of lacto and sacc growth but brett is slower to multiply and pedio is even slower.
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: brewinhard on August 17, 2014, 04:01:12 PM
Regardless if it is a slow grower, the yeast cake will still contain enough brett cells to kick start the barrel fermentation.  As the beer ages the brett will change the profile of the beer.  Either way you look at, Roselare is not super aggressive but can produce a good final product in the long run. 
Title: Re: Roeselare Blend
Post by: wingnut on August 18, 2014, 02:08:08 AM
The wisdom I heard....  Sac, Bret and Pedio all seem to take over the wort for a period of time.... but different times...  First Sac...then... i think it was pedio...then bret.   

I think if you ferment out your beer with Sac, then toss in a few vials (not even scaling up to  the ratio of 1 vial/5 gallons)... the bugs will all take their turn on the wort and munch on their part.    (assuming the alcahol levels do not exceede the tollerence of each bug)

Essentially, the Sac is going to ferment to a terminal gravity... then a while later the Pedio will have grown in enough numbers to do their thing .... and eventually eat up what they can and then go to sleep...  then Brett will dominate at the finish and keep working on the remaning sugars... all the while adding more and more brett character. 

It seems like sac just goes off fast, but cannot ferment everything. It starts and finishes before brett and pedio even start the race.   What sugars the sac leaves behind, the Pedio and Brett go after.  Pedio/Brett character ratio is governed by the available O2.    The more o2, the more pedio character comes through. 

I would gather with this, each barrel will kind of govern what the ratio of pedio/brett character you get based on how the staves allow the slow ingress of oxygen.   So in short, the barrel itself may have more say in how your final beer tastes then the ratio of bugs you pitch at the start.

Good luck!