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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: rep on April 20, 2010, 08:32:15 PM

Title: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: rep on April 20, 2010, 08:32:15 PM
Hi
I am fermenting a beer with Safale 05.  I used a starter and placed the carboy in a refrigerator, fired up my temp control device and let it go.  Within a couple of days I had minor blow off.

Now, a week later I notice the temps in the frig are about 61F.  I had set the unit to begin cooling so I would ferment on the cool side of the yeast specs around 68F.

The ambient temp in the garage where the frig is sitting is only about 61F.

The yeast is chugging along very well.

I do though have a question.  Can I simply expect the beer to take longer to finish, but will not have any off flavors as a result of cool fermentation?  I have always wanted to be on the cool rather than the warm side of my ferments, but is this too cool?
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: mainebrewer on April 20, 2010, 08:49:37 PM
My experience with S-05 is that it works just fine in the low 60's.
If it is "chugging along", it'll be fine.
The yeast will make its own heat anyway.
No off flavors, just a good clean ferment.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: euge on April 21, 2010, 05:29:39 AM
You might get a little acetaldehyde as in fresh cut pumpkin. That should age out.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: redbeerman on April 21, 2010, 11:23:03 AM
You might get a little acetaldehyde as in fresh cut pumpkin. That should age out.

At 61F S-05 is pretty clean IMHO.  I doubt there will be any off flavors at all.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: maxieboy on April 24, 2010, 01:28:38 PM
You might get a little acetaldehyde as in fresh cut pumpkin. That should age out.

At 61F S-05 is pretty clean IMHO.  I doubt there will be any off flavors at all.

+1
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: gcam333 on May 11, 2010, 02:39:55 AM
I have read  do not  make a starter,  and its OK to make a starter when using Safale 05.  Which is correct?  Is dry pitching and making a starter both acceptable with this yeast. I am bottling a IIPA tomorrow night that I used a SAFALE 05 starter on.  I got good steady fermentation for 5 days, and in 10 days went from 1.073 to 1.017. I am bottling after 16 days.    ???
I planned on going this route on my next batch, what to do?
gcam
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: mainebrewer on May 11, 2010, 12:12:38 PM
There isn't any need to make a starter if you're using S-05.
Since I've never made a starter for S-05, I don't know if it makes any difference either way.
You can re-hydrate it if you want.
I just pitch it right out of the package.
Works fine.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: gcam333 on May 11, 2010, 12:33:20 PM
Are there enough cells for a high OG beer with a single pack? Also I guess my real question is whether or not there is a real downside to making a starter with this yeast.
Thanks Gcam
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: bonjour on May 11, 2010, 12:40:18 PM
Define "High"

I use 3 packs of rehydrated (Important in big brews) when I am north of 1,120, 2 (rehydrated) for 1.080+.  and pitch dry for smaller than that.

Fred
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: gcam333 on May 11, 2010, 02:14:38 PM
I'm a newbie, so I considered a 1.073 as high. Is there a downside to making a starter from this yeast?  I guess I sound goofy but I just enjoy doing the starter.
Thanks Gcam
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: majorvices on May 11, 2010, 02:20:17 PM
I regularly ferment US-05 in the low 60s. To my tastes it make sthe best beer at those temps. Absolutely no acetaldahyde ever from that yeast.

I'm a newbie, so I considered a 1.073 as high. Is there a downside to making a starter from this yeast?  I guess I sound goofy but I just enjoy doing the starter.
Thanks Gcam

A starter with dry yeast can actually cause more harm than good because the cell count in dry yeast is so much higher than packs of liquid yeast. The dry yeast also has the glycogen stored up in its cell walls so making a starter can cause it to use that glycogen so that when you go to pitch your yeast you ctually are going in with less healthy yeast and very likely less cell population in general. For dry yeast, simply pitch more packs for higher gravity beers. Use the pitching calc at www.mrmalty.com for more info.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: gcam333 on May 11, 2010, 02:41:49 PM
Majorvices,
Do you ever harvest any of this yeast?
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: majorvices on May 11, 2010, 02:45:02 PM
Yes. Harvests fine. In fact 2nd generation is much more flocculative and the beer drops much clearer much faster on 2nd gen. Haven't ever tried third gen.

I should add I am speaking of bottom harvesting.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: gcam333 on May 11, 2010, 03:13:57 PM
I am bottling my IIPA this afternoon, I had wanted to harvest some of the yeast. I really like the way that the S-05 behaved.
Once I harvest into a sterile container, should I leave a quantity of sterile water on the yeast cake in the fridge for storage?
Gcam
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: bluesman on May 11, 2010, 03:18:47 PM
I will have to agree with the major and redbeerman on this one. I've used S05 in the 60ish range with good results. It renders a very clean tasting ale.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: majorvices on May 11, 2010, 03:21:50 PM
I am bottling my IIPA this afternoon, I had wanted to harvest some of the yeast. I really like the way that the S-05 behaved.
Once I harvest into a sterile container, should I leave a quantity of sterile water on the yeast cake in the fridge for storage?
Gcam

I wouldn't recommend harvesting yeast from much higher OG than 1.065.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: richardt on May 11, 2010, 03:38:11 PM
I wouldn't recommend harvesting yeast from much higher OG than 1.065.

Why not? 
Wouldn't pitching it into a starter help "rejuvenate" the yeast before it actually makes it into the next batch of wort?
I've read that high gravity worts result in high ABV beers and that high alcohol and CO2 levels are detrimental to yeast.
Is there a study or article or link that discusses this in better detail that you can point me to?
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: majorvices on May 11, 2010, 03:44:05 PM
Perhaps if you made a starter before it would be alright - I'm speaking pitching slurry. But yeast is stressed after a high gravity fermentation and tends to not be as healthy. I have used it at around 1.075 or so and it has definitely seemed more sluggish. 1.065-1.070 is usually the highest I will go. As far as an article or study, there are plenty out there. Its pretty much industry standard not to reuse yeast much higher than 1.065 - though some Belgian brewers do.

And, another thing to consider is collecting yeast from a very hoppy beer can cause problems as well. Hop resins can coat yeast cells and cause problems in budding. Personally I would never reuse yeast from a IIPA.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: gcam333 on May 11, 2010, 03:50:33 PM
Thanks Major,
I will try harvesting from another batch later on.
Gcam
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: bellebouche on May 12, 2010, 09:35:02 AM
I pitched a starter of Safale S05 into a 1066 Scottish 80/- recipe at 59f and it as stayed fairly constantly within a 57f-61f range for twelve days where the beer has now settled down to 1012.

I mashed fairly high so I'm not expecting it to fall a great deal further but the recipe calls for a one month fermentation so I'll be leaving it alone. I guess the extra couple of weeks sat on the yeast cake might help clear up any DMS in the beer?

Irrespective, first time I've used this strain and I have to say I've been impressed with the ability to ferment well at such low temperatures.

Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: dean on May 12, 2010, 03:19:49 PM
I pitched a starter of Safale S05 into a 1066 Scottish 80/- recipe at 59f and it as stayed fairly constantly within a 57f-61f range for twelve days where the beer has now settled down to 1012.

I mashed fairly high so I'm not expecting it to fall a great deal further but the recipe calls for a one month fermentation so I'll be leaving it alone. I guess the extra couple of weeks sat on the yeast cake might help clear up any DMS in the beer?

Irrespective, first time I've used this strain and I have to say I've been impressed with the ability to ferment well at such low temperatures.



I've had US05 ferment at 55 degrees WORT temperture, its slower but clean with a little more malt flavor perhaps.  Did this more than once, big beers too, just pitch the appropriate amount.  I never rehydrate dry yeast either, just sprinkle it on dry.  I think I tried rehydrating it once but there wasn't any noticeable difference.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: bellebouche on May 12, 2010, 09:23:47 PM
The datasheet from Fermentis on this yeast says it's fine to sprinkle it on dry if the wort is warm enough but I always like to ease things along by rehydrating and then feeding on a starter culture - irrespective of the yeast and temperature

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: majorvices on May 12, 2010, 10:35:55 PM
I brew 10 gallon batches and side by side I haven't really ever noticed any difference between hydrating and not hydrating as far as the quality of the beer is concerned.
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: brewmichigan on May 14, 2010, 03:03:55 PM
To reply to the OP about pitching and fermenting US-05 on the cool end, I do it all the time. I usually pitch the US-05 lower than 60, in the 57-59 range, and let the temp of fermentation take it up to 61-62. I get amazingly clean beers this way that allow the hops to shine through. I have done this with other yeasts as well. I have done this with wyeast 1450, and 1056. So far the US-05 works the best. I noticed Denny's yeast seemed to slow down a lot under 60. Once I ramped the temp back up into the lower 60s it took right back off.

I have also never had a problem with attenuation because I pitched too low. Good luck and keep pitching low!
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: Kaiser on May 14, 2010, 03:34:45 PM
I have also never had a problem with attenuation because I pitched too low. Good luck and keep pitching low!

A good idea, especially when pitching on the low end of the temperature range, is the Fast Ferment Test (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Fast_Ferment_Test). This test shows you how far the yeast can go and tells you if the yeast in your colder beer fermentation is done or just gave up and may require warming up the beer.

Kai
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: bluesman on May 14, 2010, 04:43:06 PM
I have also never had a problem with attenuation because I pitched too low. Good luck and keep pitching low!

A good idea, especially when pitching on the low end of the temperature range, is the Fast Ferment Test (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Fast_Ferment_Test). This test shows you how far the yeast can go and tells you if the yeast in your colder beer fermentation is done or just gave up and may require warming up the beer.

Kai

Do you know if any commercial breweries use this method of QC?
Title: Re: Fermenting cooler than specified
Post by: Kaiser on May 14, 2010, 07:31:20 PM
Do you know if any commercial breweries use this method of QC?

All large breweries in Germany do this and I would also expect smaller ones to use it. I have also seen it used in the AB lab when I toured one of their plants. It's such an easy QC check that I would expect many commercial brewers to use it.

Kai