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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: mugwort on August 22, 2014, 05:48:43 pm

Title: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: mugwort on August 22, 2014, 05:48:43 pm
Anybody using/loving the new Wyeast seasonal sours, particularly the 3203 De Bom or the 3209 Oud Bruin?

Interestingly, they're advertising their sour-making speed, advising no initial aeration, followed later in the fermentation by oxygen addition.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/vssprogram.cfm?website=3
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: erockrph on August 22, 2014, 05:57:12 pm
Anybody using/loving the new Wyeast seasonal sours, particularly the 3203 De Bom or the 3209 Oud Bruin?

Interestingly, they're advertising their sour-making speed, advising no initial aeration, followed later in the fermentation by oxygen addition.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/vssprogram.cfm?website=3
The "periodic dosing with O2 during fermentation to stimulate ethyl acetate production" thing says to me that you're intentionally trying to get some Acetobacter activity. While that's certainly one way to get things to sour quickly, I can't help but be a little leery of that recommendation. I'll withhold judgement for now, but that just seems like a recipe for vinegar to me.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: mugwort on August 22, 2014, 06:24:04 pm
Anybody using/loving the new Wyeast seasonal sours, particularly the 3203 De Bom or the 3209 Oud Bruin?

Interestingly, they're advertising their sour-making speed, advising no initial aeration, followed later in the fermentation by oxygen addition.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/vssprogram.cfm?website=3
The "periodic dosing with O2 during fermentation to stimulate ethyl acetate production" thing says to me that you're intentionally trying to get some Acetobacter activity. While that's certainly one way to get things to sour quickly, I can't help but be a little leery of that recommendation. I'll withhold judgement for now, but that just seems like a recipe for vinegar to me.
Yeah, I won't be hurrying to adopt that practice myself.  I've got the time, space and patience to let 'em age the old fashioned way.

A friend got me a pack of De Bom yesterday, so I've got my cerebral hamster working overtime on a recipe/fermentation scenario for this release.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: kramerog on August 22, 2014, 07:35:49 pm
Anybody using/loving the new Wyeast seasonal sours, particularly the 3203 De Bom or the 3209 Oud Bruin?

Interestingly, they're advertising their sour-making speed, advising no initial aeration, followed later in the fermentation by oxygen addition.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/vssprogram.cfm?website=3
The "periodic dosing with O2 during fermentation to stimulate ethyl acetate production" thing says to me that you're intentionally trying to get some Acetobacter activity. While that's certainly one way to get things to sour quickly, I can't help but be a little leery of that recommendation. I'll withhold judgement for now, but that just seems like a recipe for vinegar to me.

Having done a nearly all lacto fermentation in which the fermenting beer was exposed unintentionally with oxygen despite a pellicle, small amounts of oxygen don't create any noticeable acetic acid in the finished beer, but the ethyl acetate is quite noticeable.  I wasn't aware that ethyl acetate was desirable. 
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: dordway29 on August 22, 2014, 09:50:25 pm
Me and a coworker have our own de Bom cooking. Planning to use the Oud bruin soon.

As for the de Bom, best guess is there is no pedio in the mix. Sacc fermentation takes off meanwhile lacto builds. Eventually becoming too acidic for the saccharomyces so it goes dormant. Dosing with oxygen causes the lacto to go dormant and the brett takes over. Sure it'll be sour in two months but it may need more time to fully develop.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: dordway29 on August 22, 2014, 10:09:11 pm
The brett will also produce acetic acid with the oxygen. But hopefully in small amounts. I think if kept in check barrel aged brett beers with a subtle acetic character can be refreshing.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: mugwort on August 23, 2014, 12:21:05 am
Me and a coworker have our own de Bom cooking. Planning to use the Oud bruin soon.

So what are you fermenting with De Bom?  Did you use a starter or pitch directly?  And how much oxygenation did you do, if any?
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: erockrph on August 23, 2014, 01:51:55 am
The brett will also produce acetic acid with the oxygen. But hopefully in small amounts. I think if kept in check barrel aged brett beers with a subtle acetic character can be refreshing.
I guess my concern is how you keep the acetic subtle without making vinegar or nail polish remover.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: AmandaK on August 23, 2014, 02:29:32 pm
I have the Oud Bruin going now, about 1.5 months in. It's a fairly uneventful looking strain, no pellicle at all. The Pedio/Brett L next to it that was pitched on the same day has wicked 2" pellicle bubbles on it.

I'm too much of a wuss to try De Bom.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: reverseapachemaster on August 23, 2014, 05:03:33 pm
I haven't tried either but like everybody else I am highly suspicious of the De Bom blend. I have 3-4 gallons of beer with too much acetic acid and ethyl acetate. I don't need to make more and I have no idea why anybody would intentionally try to make that. I don't like it but I stuck some of it on currant juice and my wife likes it so I'll probably try to feed her the rest of that beer over time.

I'd like to try out the oud bruin blend but I am running at full capacity on my fermentors at the moment.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: mugwort on August 23, 2014, 10:20:48 pm
I have the Oud Bruin going now, about 1.5 months in. It's a fairly uneventful looking strain, no pellicle at all. The Pedio/Brett L next to it that was pitched on the same day has wicked 2" pellicle bubbles on it.

Wyeast states regarding its 3209-PC Oud Bruin Blend, "This new exclusive sour blend is built for dark, malt-accented sour styles – like 3763 Roselaere™ it will create sharp acidity, but unlike 3763 it will leave the malt character intact, creating a balanced and complex end product."

I wonder whether this is mostly something to fill a yeast description, or if 3209 will stand out among sour blends for preserving malt character.

Looking forward to any tasting notes you might share.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: dordway29 on August 23, 2014, 10:53:14 pm

I guess my concern is how you keep the acetic subtle without making vinegar or nail polish remover.
[/quote]

Brett will stop producing acetic acid once you run out of oxygen. By controlling the oxygen input you can to an extent control the level of acetic acid.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on August 25, 2014, 07:50:41 pm
I've got both the De Bom and the Oud Bruin going on separate batches of a Flanders Red-type wort.

I didn't change my standard SOP. I just shook to aerate and pitched at 65F. Now I wait for 4-6 months before sampling.

I'm not going for the 'accelerated' fermentation profile this time; I thought it would be interesting to compare the two side-by-side with the same wort and fermentation profile.

I am intrigued by the odd SOP, since it sounded strikingly similar to how one makes vinegar. Maybe I'll do another batch with the De Bom & the Wyeast-recommended fermentation profile.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: kmccaf on August 26, 2014, 04:48:04 pm
Anybody ever have New Glarus' Old English Porter? It had a distinct vinegar aroma. The taste was much more along a really nice oud bruin, with a little vinegar. Dan Carey told me several years ago that there was definitely vinegar production in there (and that he would never do it again due to the complaints). I personally thought it was one of the most interesting beers I have ever had, and quite tasty taboot. If De Bom made something like that, I would be very interested. However, I went with the Oud Bruin strain for my purchase.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: troybinso on August 26, 2014, 05:33:05 pm
I know the O.P. was specifically asking about the mixed sour blends, but I picked up the 5223 Lacto Brevis and used it exclusively on a 1.047 Berliner Weisse with about 7 IBU. It did a quick job of getting it down to 1.005. I am very pleased with the sourness and taste out of the fermenter.
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: erockrph on August 26, 2014, 05:48:55 pm
I know the O.P. was specifically asking about the mixed sour blends, but I picked up the 5223 Lacto Brevis and used it exclusively on a 1.047 Berliner Weisse with about 7 IBU. It did a quick job of getting it down to 1.005. I am very pleased with the sourness and taste out of the fermenter.
Thanks for sharing. This is the one I was most interested in. How tart is the final product?
Title: Re: Trying the new Wyeast seasonal sour blends?
Post by: troybinso on August 27, 2014, 04:09:45 am
Out of the fermenter I would describe it as "quite tart" maybe even "very tart" - it's not subtle. There was a little of that back of the throat tingle. I measured the pH and it was 3.68, although I would take that with a grain of salt, since I have never gotten very accurate measurements with my pH meter. Anyway, there is plenty of sourness and I am pleased with the results so far. I am going to put the batch on top of 5 pounds of marionberries and see what I get.