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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: abraxas on April 22, 2010, 04:12:37 AM

Title: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: abraxas on April 22, 2010, 04:12:37 AM
I have been thinking that I would like to brew a couple of ten gallon batches on my 5 gallon set up for a number of reasons.  I would make a wort at about double the strength and then dilute in the carboys.  I realize my mash efficiencies will drop accordingly and I will have to make some hop adjustments to reach a similar final beer but what else is going to be effected? 

Should I be adjusting my recipe for reduced (or increased) melanoidin formation during the boil?  Instinctively, I assume I should increase my boil time, is this a good assumption?
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: mvktr2 on April 22, 2010, 06:04:35 AM
I would say this is quite possible and I've heard of other people doing it.  I believe the thing to do is put it in brewing software/hopville.com and see how it comes out.  Not really much different from doing a Parti-gyle only less complicated.  It's probably as simple as running the numbers as you're going to brew it then re-running them as it'll be after you top up with water this should show the effect on ibus, srm, etc.  Example:  Brewing a 1.090 bier @ 5 gallons equals two 1.045 brews, plug in the ingredients into the software to get a 1.045 and see what the soft ware says happens to the srm etc.  Greg Daniels wrote an excellent article on parti-gyle that might be of some use, google it.

Schlante,
Phillip

Ps Whoohooo first post!
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: euge on April 22, 2010, 07:05:50 AM
Why not? But expect a lower efficiency of course. It'll be great. I don't see much of a problem at all.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: akr71 on April 22, 2010, 12:46:16 PM
It also seems like a great way to experiment with different yeast or different hops (when dry hopping).
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: diybrewing on April 25, 2010, 02:42:58 AM
I have done this twice and did not like the results either time. I found the issue to be with the melanoidin formation in the pot. But I also know it was a recipe issue too. Both times I was making beers I wanted to start at around 1.070 and so my wort was really high gravity. If you used this technique for making a 1.050 beer it would probably work.
P.S. I do a fair amount of Partigyles and this does work but you are boiling two beers at different times not one pot for two beers. I love making a Berlineer Weisse and the Maltose Falcons champage beer recipe this way.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: skyler on April 25, 2010, 09:28:02 PM
I suspect you would have greater kettle caramelization and a darker beer - so I would try this with a style where that wouldn't really hurt, like a Scottish ale or a Porter.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: abraxas on April 25, 2010, 10:06:07 PM
I suspect you would have greater kettle caramelization and a darker beer - so I would try this with a style where that wouldn't really hurt, like a Scottish ale or a Porter.

Actually I am going to try it with two hefe's since I have one almost ready and I will be able to compare it side by side with one brewed full strength.  Also, I have been wanting to compare 3068 with 3868 side by side and I can push through hefe's in my kegerator relatively quickly in the springtime.

I know Maillard reactions are dependent on the length of boil and the intensity of boil, I'm guessing wort gravity will have some effect on this but I am not finding anything right now.  I am sure this is heavily covered since so many people brew and a higher gravity and dilute when they start out.

I am going to up my hops by 25% or so and keep my boil at about 70 minutes for a comparison, then dilute to a similar starting gravity as my control.  It should be interesting.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: Malticulous on April 26, 2010, 02:13:28 AM
It's a lot like doing a partial boil with extract.  I've done it topping off 4.5 gallons to five so I could use a five gallon carboy. It worked fine.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: 1vertical on May 02, 2010, 03:39:33 PM
Ps Whoohooo first post!

Howdy and welcome...nice to have you here.  Sounds like good advise.
I made a pilsner recently that was over the top in gravity/viscosity O.G. 1.069 ish.
When the fermentation was over and during the lager phase, It was not clearing
like I wanted it to.  I put in polyclar as a clarifier but my technique also involved
the addition of 1.5 gallons of distilled water to reduce the viscosity...and I dry hopped
at the same time....

I put the water and hops into a corny keg and then carbonated the water thorougly
(I had concerns about oxygen from the water tainting the light colored pilsner beer)
Once the water was carbed up well, I transferred the pilsner from its secondary keg
into the tertiary keg containing carbed distilled water and the hop ball (Sterling).  This really
worked well....perhaps somewhat retentive and some
extra work, but good end result.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: santoch on May 02, 2010, 04:17:35 PM
I agree that the caramelization is a factor so you will want to do it in a beer that melanoidans are expected.
Also, do not underestimate the decrease in hop utilization you will get due to the high gravity boil.

<copied from Norm Pyle's Hops FAQ Page http://realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html>
 
Quote
According to Rager, if the gravity of the boil exceeds 1.050, there is a gravity adjustment (GA) to factor in:

   GA = (BOIL_GRAVITY - 1.050)
           ----------------------
                0.2
otherwise,
   GA = 0

Non-metric Units
IBU  = (OUNCES OF HOPS) * %UTILIZATION * %ALPHA * 7462
       -------------------------------------------------
                 VOLUME(gallons) * (1 + GA)


Assuming that your beer is supposed to end up at 1.050, then the "normal" GA would be 0.
Doing the same recipe as a concentrated boil raises the GA multiplier to 1 + ((1.100 - 1.050)/.2) = 1 + 5.25 = 6.25

in other words, the denominator for the 5 gallon batch goes to
V*6.25 instead of V*1.  So, the extraction in the concetrated boil will produce 1/6.25 the amount of IBUs for the same addition.


Also realize that there is that upper limit to the number of IBUs you can actually get into solution.  It is somewhere around 100 IBUs.  IN a concentrated boil, you will Max out at 100 during the boil, then dilute it to 50, so basically the upper bound for beers using this method is around 50 IBUs, and that's if you compensate for the lower utilization.  You'll need a LOT of hops to make a hoppy pale ale using this method.

HTH-

Steve
North Bend, WA


Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: nyakavt on May 05, 2010, 03:59:19 PM
There's a guy at our tailgate that does this with extract, puts 10 gallons of ingredients in a 5 gallon boil.  All his beers have the typical concentrated boil sweetness, tastes like a hint of molasses.  Maillard reactions are increased by increased sugar concentration.  What I suggest for the lighter styles is not to try and do a double batch, but maybe a 1.5X batch (try to stay below some target boil gravity, maybe 1.080?).  Big commercial breweries do this, but I'm not sure what their boil gravity is and where the cutoff lies.  At some point you are going to be able to taste the additional melanoidin development from a concentrated boil, and I can tell you that above 1.100 boil gravity its definitely there.

Efficiency is the other concern, especially if you batch sparge.  Expect at least a 15-20% drop if you go from a 10 lb to 20 lb grist (batch sparging), all else being equal and collecting the same amount of wort.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: Hokerer on May 05, 2010, 04:03:43 PM
There's a guy at our tailgate that does this with extract,

Know your lot for next season yet?  We had three homebrewers bring about 10 different varieties to the Spring Game tailgate weekend before last.  That sort of thing needs to be expanded upon.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: bluesman on May 05, 2010, 07:17:59 PM
Big commercial breweries do this, but I'm not sure what their boil gravity is and where the cutoff lies.  At some point you are going to be able to taste the additional melanoidin development from a concentrated boil, and I can tell you that above 1.100 boil gravity its definitely there.

Efficiency is the other concern, especially if you batch sparge.  Expect at least a 15-20% drop if you go from a 10 lb to 20 lb grist (batch sparging), all else being equal and collecting the same amount of wort.

+1

I believe it's a routine practice at some breweries. I have diluted before many times with no ill effects. I would stick to bottled water for dilution.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: Kaiser on May 05, 2010, 08:55:39 PM
I believe it's a routine practice at some breweries. I have diluted before many times with no ill effects. I would stick to bottled water for dilution.

It is. But the dilution is done after fermentation which means that the gravity is limited by the level of high gravity fermentation "off flavors" that are acceptable. I think for some of the American lagers the fermentation gravity is about 16 Plato.

Kai
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: nyakavt on May 06, 2010, 02:41:26 PM
There's a guy at our tailgate that does this with extract,

Know your lot for next season yet?  We had three homebrewers bring about 10 different varieties to the Spring Game tailgate weekend before last.  That sort of thing needs to be expanded upon.

Lot 4, we usually bring one keg each.  Where are you guys?
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: denny on May 06, 2010, 04:27:04 PM
Efficiency is the other concern, especially if you batch sparge.  Expect at least a 15-20% drop if you go from a 10 lb to 20 lb grist (batch sparging), all else being equal and collecting the same amount of wort.

Boy, I sure haven't seen anything like that.  Maybe 5, sometimes 10 points.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: tygo on May 06, 2010, 04:35:44 PM

Boy, I sure haven't seen anything like that.  Maybe 5, sometimes 10 points.

I got about 67% with a 22lb grist this weekend.  I'm normally running around 74%.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: nyakavt on May 06, 2010, 05:25:04 PM
Efficiency is the other concern, especially if you batch sparge.  Expect at least a 15-20% drop if you go from a 10 lb to 20 lb grist (batch sparging), all else being equal and collecting the same amount of wort.

Boy, I sure haven't seen anything like that.  Maybe 5, sometimes 10 points.

From Kai's site: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparging_Analysis#Effect_of_the_grist_size_.28weight.29

According to the mathematical model of batch sparging, the efficiency is dependent on the amount of grain used, pre-boil volume, absorbtion ratio, dead space, number of sparges, and relative runoff sizes, provided all other variables are well controlled and 100% conversion is achieved.  If only the amount of grain is being changed, then the model says there will be an 17% difference between the two for a 6.5 gallon (temp adjusted) pre boil, at least if my calculation is correct.  I have found this model to be a bit on the high side of estimated efficiency, I usually get a few points less than predicted.

Personally I've only done a couple of *really* big beers, so I'm not the person to look to for verification of theory.  On the last one efficiency went from a normal 80% down to 65% IIRC, collecting 7 gallons preboil with 23 pounds of grain.  Denny, I seem to remember you saying that you usually have a bigger preboil when you do the barleywine?  Far be it from me to question a brewer that has brewed a *lot* more batches, it's just hard for me to wrap my head around only a 5% efficiency reduction when going from 10 to 20 lbs of grain, all else being equal  ???
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: bbump22 on May 06, 2010, 06:12:47 PM
There's a guy at our tailgate that does this with extract,

Know your lot for next season yet?  We had three homebrewers bring about 10 different varieties to the Spring Game tailgate weekend before last.  That sort of thing needs to be expanded upon.

Dammit - I should have never moved to seattle!  I would be at a bunch of Hokie games with a bunch of homebrews!
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: denny on May 06, 2010, 06:27:07 PM
Far be it from me to question a brewer that has brewed a *lot* more batches, it's just hard for me to wrap my head around only a 5% efficiency reduction when going from 10 to 20 lbs of grain, all else being equal  ???

Question, question!  :)

Maybe it's because I can't recall the last time I only used 10 lb. of grain!  My average batch is usually around 15+ lb.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: Hokerer on May 06, 2010, 07:08:12 PM
Lot 4, we usually bring one keg each.  Where are you guys?

Upper Chicken Hill.  Requested same this season but don't know yet if that's gonna happen.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: Kaiser on May 07, 2010, 01:31:54 AM
The number of sparges also matter when you go from 10 lb to 20 lb. For big beers I have to sparge twice which gains back a few of the lost points.

Kai
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: bluesman on May 07, 2010, 10:52:50 AM
The number of sparges also matter when you go from 10 lb to 20 lb. For big beers I have to sparge twice which gains back a few of the lost points.

Kai

+1

It's proportional to the concentration of sugar in the mash.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: majorvices on May 07, 2010, 11:30:28 AM

Boy, I sure haven't seen anything like that.  Maybe 5, sometimes 10 points.

I got about 67% with a 22lb grist this weekend.  I'm normally running around 74%.

That's a bummer. Even on my 1bbl system I get up over 75% efficiency. Same as on my 12 gallon system. Both are batch sparged.
Title: Re: Brewing at Twice Strength then Dilluting
Post by: tygo on May 07, 2010, 02:52:02 PM
That's a bummer. Even on my 1bbl system I get up over 75% efficiency. Same as on my 12 gallon system. Both are batch sparged.

I wasn't bummed about the drop in efficiency for the bigger beer.  I'd planned it at 65%.  I'm eventually going to get around to tinkering with my system (starting with my crush) to push the "normal" 74% up a bit but that's really just for my ego  ;)