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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: wamille on September 09, 2014, 09:18:37 pm

Title: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: wamille on September 09, 2014, 09:18:37 pm
I'm seeking opinions from those of you who have fermented with the Belle Saison yeast... specifically those whose fermentation temps were above 75-85F throughout.  I was told by the Lallemand rep that this yeast can ferment up to 90F. 
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: dmtaylor on September 10, 2014, 04:37:44 am
For best results pitch in the 60s then keep in the low 70s for a few weeks.  Personally I would not recommend going higher but it is your beer so hey do what you want.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: ynotbrusum on September 10, 2014, 04:41:22 am
I started in the low 60's for a few days and then let it free rise to almost 90 and it seems fine.  YMMV, of course!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: majorvices on September 10, 2014, 06:24:25 am
I started in the low 60s and finished in the low 70s. Apparently this yeast was not completely finished when I kegged it and it continued to chug along for a few months at minus 45 degree temps. So this is an impressive yeast!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: morticaixavier on September 10, 2014, 09:22:34 am
I started in the low 60s and finished in the low 70s. Apparently this yeast was not completely finished when I kegged it and it continued to chug along for a few months at minus 45 degree temps. So this is an impressive yeast!

do you actually mean sub-45 degree temps or did you freeze your beer solid?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: andyi on September 10, 2014, 09:31:08 am

I start in the mid 60s and it usually free rises to mid 70s and that still gets me to FGs lower than 1.005.  I think I will go higher next time to see what I get.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: majorvices on September 10, 2014, 10:00:51 am

I started in the low 60s and finished in the low 70s. Apparently this yeast was not completely finished when I kegged it and it continued to chug along for a few months at minus 45 degree temps. So this is an impressive yeast!

do you actually mean sub-45 degree temps or did you freeze your beer solid?

Oh lord, the semantics police are back. ;) As impressive as that strain is I don't think it would work at 45 below zero.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: morticaixavier on September 10, 2014, 10:08:36 am

I started in the low 60s and finished in the low 70s. Apparently this yeast was not completely finished when I kegged it and it continued to chug along for a few months at minus 45 degree temps. So this is an impressive yeast!

do you actually mean sub-45 degree temps or did you freeze your beer solid?

Oh lord, the semantics police are back. ;) As impressive as that strain is I don't think it would work at 45 below zero.

deepspace yeast (deepspace 009 for the sci fi geeks out there)
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: Stevie on September 10, 2014, 05:29:10 pm
WY-1701?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: wamille on September 10, 2014, 05:44:46 pm
dmtaylor... I just assumed that when the company rep tells you it's fine to ferment in the 90's, it would be safe to pitch at ambient temps.  I hope that turns out to be a safe assumption.

So no one else has pitched the Belle Saison at 75F+?  I'm just trying to figure out what to expect.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: majorvices on September 10, 2014, 06:33:24 pm
dmtaylor... I just assumed that when the company rep tells you it's fine to ferment in the 90's, it would be safe to pitch at ambient temps.  I hope that turns out to be a safe assumption.

So no one else has pitched the Belle Saison at 75F+?  I'm just trying to figure out what to expect.

I think you will be fine. But I do find that for every yeast I have ever used pitching cooler than 70 works best to suit my tastes.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: 69franx on September 10, 2014, 07:46:08 pm

WY-1701?
Nice Steve!


Sent from The Alpine Brewery using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: dmtaylor on September 11, 2014, 05:07:30 am
dmtaylor... I just assumed that when the company rep tells you it's fine to ferment in the 90's, it would be safe to pitch at ambient temps.  I hope that turns out to be a safe assumption.

So no one else has pitched the Belle Saison at 75F+?  I'm just trying to figure out what to expect.

I cannot say for sure what you will get but I do think your odds of getting a good beer with saison yeast at high temperatures are far better than if you were using any other type of yeast.  Belgian yeasts in general can turn out good at higher temperatures than other strains.  It is certainly worth the experiment.  And yes, the manufacturer and many homebrewers do report good results at high temps with this yeast.  So try it and see if you like it.  It hasn't been something that I would personally experiment with but that is not to say it isn't worthy of experimentation at all.  Sorry if my previous post came out that way.  Experimentation is awesome.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: reverseapachemaster on September 11, 2014, 10:13:50 am
It is common for saison yeasts to ferment into the 90s. I don't have specific experience will Belle but others certainly perform well at those temperatures. You can find lots of people online discussing these warmer fermentations with this strain so I think you will be ok going north of typical ale temperatures.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: majorvices on September 11, 2014, 10:17:51 am
I've done WLP565 at 90 degrees with good results but have not tried any other one's.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: Stevie on September 11, 2014, 10:49:27 am
I find that 3711 needs a little longer on the cool end, 68-72, before ramping up.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: Thur on September 14, 2014, 11:27:05 pm
I used this yeast over the summer to to brew a simple Saison. I chose this for two reasons. One reason is that Saisons are delicious ant second I don't have refrigeration for my fermentation. Saison was the perfect choice for summer temperatures. I was hoping for some nice 80 referee plus days for the fermentation. But this sumer was cool. The beer fermented in the mid 70s. The beer turned out great. I had it judged by a local BJCP. His only question was "Did it ferment in the 80s?". He was expecting some more peppery notes associated with high temps. Short answer is let it rise high because it should.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: Henielma on October 01, 2014, 03:30:33 pm
With the Belle Saison I have made a few beers. The last one is started at 77 F and let it warm up itself till 83 F  and after that I kept it on 75 F.

This beer became more a Saison then the previous ones I started on 68 F and let it rise in a day to 71 F. This beer was a good beer but not realy a Saison. It was too sweet dispite the final SG of 1001.

The next time I want to start at 82 and let it rise to 86 F to get even more Saison character.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 01, 2014, 04:09:05 pm
With the Belle Saison I have made a few beers. The last one is started at 77 F and let it warm up itself till 83 F  and after that I kept it on 75 F.

This beer became more a Saison then the previous ones I started on 68 F and let it rise in a day to 71 F. This beer was a good beer but not realy a Saison. It was too sweet dispite the final SG of 1001.

The next time I want to start at 82 and let it rise to 86 F to get even more Saison character.

FWIW, Stan Hieronymus starts his Belgians in the low to mid 60's.  However, many here claim to jump into the higher temps right away.  Perhaps a split batch would give you a way to determine what you prefer?  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: pete b on October 02, 2014, 08:12:00 am
I've done WLP565 at 90 degrees with good results but have not tried any other one's.
I fermented a rhubarb rye saison using Belle Saison starting in mid seventies and let it go up to the mid eighties after a couple days. It's a beast. I think my og was close to 1.060 and fg was 1.000. It wasn't fruity at all and had nice spice and sour character which was enhanced by the rye and rhubarb. I accidently overcarbed which turned out nice actually. The dryness of the beer and the high carbonation made it like champagne except that it tasted better than champagne. The only problem was the high carbonation brought up sediment whenever I opened a bottle.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: mchrispen on October 02, 2014, 09:41:15 am
Belle Saison is a beast, especially when fermented warm. I like to start at room temperature (74Fish) and let free rise. For the last gravity points, I sometimes move the beer into a hot garage (85-90F) to finish. I get pepper, apple, pear and some subtle banana and clove with this method. OGs as high as 1.078 have finished in the 1.003-005 range.

Cool fermentation yields a fairly flabby result, very little esters or spice. Very hot primary fermentation (in my case over 90F) yielded a lot of fusels that didn't show with fermentation in the high 70's. I also got overwhelming banana flavor in that batch.

I re-pitch slurry at about 1/2 - 3/4 the normal rate to keep up similar flavor expression compared to 'fresh' packages. I have run this out to 5 generations and had good results. I seem to be selecting more flocuant yeast as I go - the later pitches seem to drop bright with a week of cold conditioning.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: Henielma on October 02, 2014, 02:35:04 pm
With the Belle Saison I have made a few beers. The last one is started at 77 F and let it warm up itself till 83 F  and after that I kept it on 75 F.

This beer became more a Saison then the previous ones I started on 68 F and let it rise in a day to 71 F. This beer was a good beer but not realy a Saison. It was too sweet dispite the final SG of 1001.

The next time I want to start at 82 and let it rise to 86 F to get even more Saison character.

FWIW, Stan Hieronymus starts his Belgians in the low to mid 60's.  However, many here claim to jump into the higher temps right away.  Perhaps a split batch would give you a way to determine what you prefer?  Just a thought.

A Saison is not a standard (Belgium) yeast. The Saison yeast needs for the special dry Saison character high temperatures. Yesterday I tasted a Belle Saison beer (Start SG 1038 and end SG 997) from another homebrewer. This beer was fermented at 90 F. It was nice dry and had no off flavours.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: chumley on October 04, 2014, 01:30:22 pm
I just used this yeast for the first time.  I brewed 10 gallons of saison, 90% pils/10% munich, and overshot my gravity and ended up at 1.065 OG (damn you Avangard pilsner malt).  I split the batch into two primaries, one with two packets of Belle saison, the other with a 1.5 L starter of WY3726 farmhouse.

I started fermenting in the mid 60s for 10 days, then attached a brew belt and heated it up to 75 for another 20 days.  Yesterday I kegged them both.  The 3726 had dropped clear, had a wonderful pepper and fruit flavor going for it.  Its terminal gravity was 1.005.

The Belle version was cloudy.  It was peppery, but kind of one dimensional compared to the 3726. Of course, judging a yeasty flat beer isn't indicative of the final product.  Its final gravity was 1.000(!)

I racked them as yesterday I brewed the Saison d'Hiver recipe posted in another thread, and pictched it on the two yeast cakes.  This time I undershot the gravity - 1.075.  This morning, the 3726 was merrily bubbling away, while the Belle bucket had blown its lid.  Which I can't recall ever seeing that happen before.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: theoman on October 06, 2014, 02:01:40 am
I've had a couple beers brewed by others that were fermented with Belle Saison at warmer temps. They were good, but they seemed to be less saisony (pepper, clove, spice...) and more Belgiany (fruity with hints of ethanol). I recently gave the yeast a try and fermented for a week at about 18C followed by a week+ at about 23C. I bottled at 1.002 and I'm enjoying the hell out of it right now. It's phenolic all over the place. It's possible the spice notes are accentuated by the 18% rye in the grist. Anyway, I'll use the yeast again and I'll ferment low again.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: Henielma on October 06, 2014, 11:55:20 am
Did the beer you fermented relative cold with the Belle Saison taste like a Saison (for example Dupont) or did it taste more sweet than a real Saison?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: dmtaylor on October 06, 2014, 08:21:50 pm
Mine fermented in upper 60s with a final gravity of 1.002 did not taste anywhere near that dry.  It tasted like the gravity was closer to 1.007 or something like that.  There was still some body and mouthfeel left.  Unlike certain other saisons.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: theoman on October 07, 2014, 12:54:41 am
There were similarities, but mine also had a fuller mouthfeel and body than Dupont. I'm sure that's as much or more due to the malt bill and mash schedule as the yeast. I was aiming for something closer to Saison Voisin than Saison Dupont.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Fermentation Temperature
Post by: BrodyR on October 08, 2014, 04:08:18 pm
I just brewed an odd beer with belle - 70% MO,  20% US 2-row, 10% white wheat, hop bursted/dry hopped with simcoe, galaxy, cascade, centennial, & citra, and with some peaches thrown in for good mix.

OG was 1.042 eaten down to 1.000 after 3 weeks in the 70s (and I even mashed high). Despite the odd concoction and FG the beer turned out fantastic.