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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: Steve L on October 09, 2014, 11:58:38 PM

Title: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: Steve L on October 09, 2014, 11:58:38 PM
I'm hoping someone can clarify something for rumor or fact. I was in my LHBS to buy grain and they were out of C-40. They told me that Briess mixes Crystal malts, for instance, C-40 is a mix of half c-20 and c- 60. Was this true or simply a way to sell grain?

Thanks for any input.
Title: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: Stevie on October 10, 2014, 12:04:42 AM
I've heard this before as well. If true, I doubt it is just briess. Also, I don't think it is as simple as 50/50. I'd imagine it's more of a touch of this and a dab of that.

My reasoning is company's do not want to carry more products than they absolutely need to. Why stock and sell three products when you can sell two?

I have on occasion done the same thing when a shop was out of a particular malt.

Edit - I meant to include that they would do it to adjust, not to create a different product.
Title: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: 69franx on October 10, 2014, 12:05:57 AM
I can't say for sure but sounds like bs salesmanship to me. Where does it start. If 40 is a mix of 60&20, what is 80? 100&60? Again I vote BS. Were they trying to tell you that Briess just never makes 40, or that you could use a mix of those 2 to get close?
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 10, 2014, 12:19:56 AM
I call BS too. It's clever salesmanship though when you're out of something. The thing is, you could blend 20 and 60 and end up with a fairly similar color, but no way the blended flavor would be the same as straight C40.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: Steve L on October 10, 2014, 12:20:21 AM
I can't say for sure but sounds like bs salesmanship to me. Where does it start. If 40 is a mix of 60&20, what is 80? 100&60? Again I vote BS. Were they trying to tell you that Briess just never makes 40, or that you could use a mix of those 2 to get close?
It went like "We're out of c-40 but you can just mix 20 and 60, Some of Briess' crystal malts are just a mix of 2 other crystal malts." That was basically the gist of it. I thought it sounded a little fishy myself.

I have mixed myself in the past but I'd hate to think my LHBS made this up just to sell grain.

Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: fmader on October 10, 2014, 12:27:32 AM
First off... Who runs out of C40???

But I'm declaring shenanigans too. C20 has its own flavor profile as does C60... Mixing them isn't going to give you the profile of C40. You'll just get the flavors of C20 and C60 blended together.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: Steve L on October 10, 2014, 12:33:59 AM
First off... Who runs out of C40???

It's true.... I ran out of C-40. I'm so ashamed! :)
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: fmader on October 10, 2014, 12:36:49 AM
First off... Who runs out of C40???

It's true.... I ran out of C-40. I'm so ashamed! :)

I wasn't directing that towards you lol... But towards the LHBS!
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: kramerog on October 10, 2014, 01:08:33 AM
There was a thread recently about crystal vs caramel malt.  Briess apparently mixes crystal with Munich to make a caramel malt that would not be considered to be crystal malt.  I never got to the bottom of which Briess malts are considered crystal and which ones are considered non-crystal.

Anyway I think that mixing different lovibonds of caramel is BS.

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: Steve L on October 10, 2014, 01:11:23 AM
First off... Who runs out of C40???

It's true.... I ran out of C-40. I'm so ashamed! :)

I wasn't directing that towards you lol... But towards the LHBS!

LOL, Unfortunately tis true on both counts. My LHBS had been out of C-40 for almost 2 weeks. Sad but true
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: erockrph on October 10, 2014, 03:14:26 AM
I think this is a case of someone taking one truth and blowing it way out of proportion. For any malt, each individual kernel is going to vary in color. Malting isn't an exact science. So while a sack of C-40 is listed at a color of 40L, the kernels inside the bag will be within a certain range, but the average color is going to be 40L.

Each individual maltster is going to have different tolerances as far as how far the color range may be for a particular product. So a sack of C-40 could hypothetically have individual kernels that measure 20L or 60L, but the bulk of the grain will be much closer to 40L. It's not like they're mixing 20L and 60L Crystal malt and calling it C-40.

I've heard interviews with some smaller maltsters that claim they are producing malt with a tighter range of color than some of the larger maltsters, and that this leads to a better consistency of flavor. Maybe that's where Breiss comes to play in this story.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: klickitat jim on October 10, 2014, 11:56:08 AM
I believe that. I don't think carapils and chocolate equals C120. But I can see with mine own eyeballs that a handful of c40 has several different colors in it. But its probably more like 35-45 not 20-60
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: majorvices on October 10, 2014, 12:27:43 PM
If you look at sacks of imported crystal and cara malts they are usually in a range - 35-40 for example. I highly doubt that Briess crystal 40 is a blend of 20 and 60. But the solution is as easy as emailing them and asking.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: denny on October 10, 2014, 03:26:59 PM
I think this is a case of someone taking one truth and blowing it way out of proportion. For any malt, each individual kernel is going to vary in color. Malting isn't an exact science. So while a sack of C-40 is listed at a color of 40L, the kernels inside the bag will be within a certain range, but the average color is going to be 40L.

Each individual maltster is going to have different tolerances as far as how far the color range may be for a particular product. So a sack of C-40 could hypothetically have individual kernels that measure 20L or 60L, but the bulk of the grain will be much closer to 40L. It's not like they're mixing 20L and 60L Crystal malt and calling it C-40.

I've heard interviews with some smaller maltsters that claim they are producing malt with a tighter range of color than some of the larger maltsters, and that this leads to a better consistency of flavor. Maybe that's where Breiss comes to play in this story.

All of this^^^ ...here's an excerpt from our book...probably more than you want to know....

CRYSTAL AND CARAMEL MALTS
Crystal and caramel malts are used to increase the body of the beer and provide flavors not available
from base malts. These flavors can range from a nearly imperceptible sweetness from very light
crystal malts (such as carapils at 1.5°L) all the way to the raisiny flavors you get from Special B
(135°L), with a range of toffeelike flavors in between. Crystal malts are typically produced at colors
of 20°L, 30°L, 40°L, 60°L, 80°L, 90°L, and 120°L. The exact colors available will vary depending on
the maltster. When you look at crystal malt, you’ll notice that it’s a mix of lighter and darker grains.
The color is specified by an average of the grain colors.
While crystal and caramel malts are essentially the same thing, some maltsters make a subtle
distinction between the two based on the process used to produce them. For more information, we
turn to Dave Kuske, director of malting operations at Briess Malt & Ingredients Co:
The difference between caramel and crystal malts involves both terminology and chemistry
and production differences.
As for terminology, the European maltsters landed on crystal malt as the descriptor of
malts that go through a conversion step where starches are rapidly (typically within forty-five
minutes) converted to sugars, and the sugars are then crystallized at high temperatures in a
roaster. Somewhere in our distant past, it was decided that our crystal-style malts produced in
the same manner were given the name caramel malt.
The term caramel really refers to the process of pyrolisis of sugars. When I give presentations
on the process, I encourage the audience to envision a candy thermometer. There are different
temperature breaks where different types of caramel are produced, and each has unique
physical and flavor properties. Crystal-style malt is in reality the end process of achieving high
enough temperatures to produce a hard crack–type caramel inside of each malt kernel, which
results in a hard, glassy endosperm. This crystallization lends unique properties to the flavor
and functionality of the malt. In order to achieve crystallization, the actual kernel temperature
must exceed 300°F, which requires much higher applied temperatures only achievable using
a roaster, which has the burner capacity to reach in excess of 700°F if needed.
There are caramel malts on the market that are produced using a kiln. The green malt is
heated at minimal airflow and is held at high moisture content for an extended period of time
(more like hours than minutes) on the upper kiln to stew the malt to allow the enzymes to break
the starches into sugars. It is a tricky step on the kiln because it is difficult to get the wet malt
heated up to the enzyme-optimum temperatures (60°C–70°C or 140°F–158°F) without drying
the malt in the process, which slows the enzymatic breakdown. I liken it to trying to heat up
a wet bath towel. After stewing, the malt is heated at the highest temperature possible on the
kiln, which is not hot enough to actually crystallize the sugars due to maximum temperature
limitations on the kiln. In most cases, 220°F–240°F burner temperature is as high as one
can achieve on a kiln, which falls far short of crystallization temperature of the predominant
sugars. There is some caramelization that occurs at the lower temperatures, but the majority
of the color and flavor development is due to the Maillard reaction (sugar + amino acid), which
provides a different flavor profile and a mealy or powdery endosperm.
Many maltsters have come up with their own trademarked names for their versions of crystal/cara
malts. We’ll look at a few of those, along with other crystal/cara variations, below.
• Golden Naked Oats (4.3°L–8.1°L), from Simpsons Malt, are a huskless crystal oat malt. This
malt gives the beer a flavor sometimes referred to as nutty. It also increases the body. Although
it’s technically a crystal, homebrewers have been known to use larger amounts of it in a batch
140 Chapter 7 conventional brewing ingredients 141
than normally would be used for crystal malts. Amounts around 30 percent aren’t unusual to see
in some recipes.
• Caramunich I (31°L–38°L), Caramunich II (42°L–49°L), Caramunich III (53°L–60.5°L),
Caraaroma (115°L–150°L), Carabelge (118°L–13.7°L), Carabohemian (64°L–83°L), Carawheat
(42°L–53°L), Carapils (1.5°L–2.9°L), Carahell (8.1°L–11.8°L), Carared (16°L–23°L), Caraamber
(23°L–31°L), and Cararye (57°L–76°L) are names trademarked by Weyermann for their line of
caramel/crystal malts.
• Carastan is the name Baird’s gives to its crystal/cara malts.
• Caravienne (21°L) is a light crystal malt originally produced by the Belgian maltsters Dewolf-
Cosyns. After they closed around 2001, it has been produced by a number of other maltsters. If
you can’t find it, we’ve found that 20°L crystal is a really close substitute.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: a10t2 on October 10, 2014, 03:28:53 PM
I think a quick visual inspection will clear this up… Briess' crystal malts are probably the most uniform in color I've ever seen. Maybe a few kernels per sack will be as dark as 60 or as light as 20, but it should be clear that it isn't just a 50/50 blend.

Shamelessly stolen from Northern Brewer, left to right are their 20, 40, and 60 pictures:

(http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/245x245/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/6/16892.jpg)(http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/245x245/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/u/1/u16629.jpg)(http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/245x245/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/0/60l_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 10, 2014, 04:32:32 PM
Drum roadsters are said to give more uniform product than using a kiln.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 16, 2014, 03:25:44 AM
Supposedly you can chew them and taste the difference.  I can't say that my palate is sensitive enough....
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: rjharper on October 16, 2014, 04:33:16 PM
If C-40 was as simple as blend of C-20 and C-60, why have it at all? If recipes call for a lb of C-40, why not just call out the 1/2lb each of C-20 and C-60. Sounds like a story made up by the LHBS.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 16, 2014, 04:35:25 PM
If C-40 was as simple as blend of C-20 and C-60, why have it at all? If recipes call for a lb of C-40, why not just call out the 1/2lb each of C-20 and C-60. Sounds like a story made up by the LHBS.

Yup.
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: archstanton on October 16, 2014, 05:02:53 PM
I received a few crystal malts from an on-line retailer a couple days ago.  The first thing I noticed was the the Briess crystal 40 they sent me was noticeably darker than the british crystal 50/60 that I received. Thought it was strange, so when I went to add them to my stock I noticed that the Briess crystal 40 was indistinguishable visually from the great western crystal 60 that I had, and definitely much darker than the crystal 40 that I had.  Figured they were merely just mislabeled. I wonder with all the malts and hops being packaged how often this happens. It did not happen according to them.

According to the on line supplier," they have just recently switched to a new supplier and each maltster has a SIGNIFICANTLY different product labeled crystal 40".  So now the Lovibond rating is unique to each maltster as well??
Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 16, 2014, 09:54:39 PM
I received a few crystal malts from an on-line retailer a couple days ago.  The first thing I noticed was the the Briess crystal 40 they sent me was noticeably darker than the british crystal 50/60 that I received. Thought it was strange, so when I went to add them to my stock I noticed that the Briess crystal 40 was indistinguishable visually from the great western crystal 60 that I had, and definitely much darker than the crystal 40 that I had.  Figured they were merely just mislabeled. I wonder with all the malts and hops being packaged how often this happens. It did not happen according to them.

According to the on line supplier," they have just recently switched to a new supplier and each maltster has a SIGNIFICANTLY different product labeled crystal 40".  So now the Lovibond rating is unique to each maltster as well??
Yes, they are different Lovibond for specialty malts. Go to 2010 and open the specialty malts presentation by Kuhl.

http://www.ahaconference.org/conference/past-presentations/

Title: Re: Does Briess mix crystal malts?
Post by: BrewArk on October 17, 2014, 04:26:34 PM
They just talked about crystal on their blog:
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/part-iv-do-you-like-yours-kilned-roasted-or-both/ (http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/part-iv-do-you-like-yours-kilned-roasted-or-both/)