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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: rajraju on April 26, 2010, 10:15:28 PM

Title: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: rajraju on April 26, 2010, 10:15:28 PM
I just received my score sheets in the mail today. My entry scored a 42.5 but I did not place. I was very satisfied with the judges comments.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: bo_gator on April 27, 2010, 01:36:47 AM
Which region are you in?
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: brewmasternpb on April 27, 2010, 01:42:09 AM
Good Job!  That's a fantastic score!
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: rajraju on April 27, 2010, 09:42:42 AM
bo_gator Midwest Region.

Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 03:56:37 PM
Great score, must be one hell of a beer. But for the record, if your beer advanced to a mini BOS (which is likely), then the score has no relevance on it placing or not.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 27, 2010, 05:10:20 PM
I just received my score sheets in the mail today. My entry scored a 42.5 but I did not place. I was very satisfied with the judges comments.

I had three beers that scored the highest in their respective categories last year.  None of them moved on.  Including a 44. 

If I'm not mistaken, Mike McDole had beers score 45.5 and 40.0 this year and they didn't move on.

tankdeer is correct.

Congrats on brewing a great beer!
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 05:27:33 PM
It never really made sense to me before as to how this whole thing worked. But this year I actually participated in judging. And now having done that, it all makes perfect sense. To the OP, so help clear things up a little:

Basically in a category with a large number of entries, it would be too much for one set of judges to judge them all. So they break it into sub-panels. Each consisting of usually 2-3 judges, and each managing a smaller, much more manageable flight. The two sub panels judge their respective flights completely seperate of each other. And then after those are done, the best 3 beers from each sub panel go on to the mini BOS. (yours undoubtedly went this far with a score like that). For the mini BOS, they usually pick the more senior judges from each sub panel (in my case we had 2 sub panels with 2 judges each, and 3 of the 4 did the mini BOS - I didn't get to participate since it was my first time), and they taste all the mini BOS beers and decide which is "best". At this point, there are no scoresheets, names, anything. Just an entry number assigned to each beer. It's possible at this time that the the beers from the other panel were better than yours, or that judging them side by side made some stand out more than yours, etc. There are several different variables at this point - remember that in a flight the beers are not judged side by side but instead back to back, and this can influence the judges perception of the beer. Things like flight order, pallet fatigue, etc.

Hope that helps to clear it up a little. I know it did for me.

/rambling

Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 27, 2010, 05:33:54 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post that tankdeer.

Do they recap the bottles going to the mini BOS round and if so, do you think doing this negatively impacts those entries?

(I'm under the assumption that there can be a significant lag time between initial tasting and the mini BOS round for some, if not all, entries.)
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 05:45:39 PM
Yes, they get recapped. In our case we used those reusable wine bottle stopper things. Basically what happened was that any beer that scored above a 30 (minimum score required to place) got resealed and the stewards took it back into the 'cold room'. Then after the flight was judged they brought back the best 3 from each flight for the mini BOS.

It is possible that this could change the the perception during the mini BOS, especially if the beer was bottle conditioned (stirring up sediment moving it around). But it's hard to say how much that would affect it considering all the other factors also in play. A second bottle would negate that factor, but bring a whole new set to the mix - bottle variances on carbonation, sanitation, caps sealing, etc. Not to mention that we'd all have to part with another bottle of precious homebrew and one of the nice things about the NHC is that the first round only requires 1 bottle. And another good thing is that you know, 100% sure, that the beer you judged in the original flight, is the same beer that you judged in the mini BOS.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: dak0415 on April 27, 2010, 05:53:54 PM
Just for info purposes, what is the standard serving temperature when judging?

Dave
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 27, 2010, 05:54:31 PM
Some folks seem to be upset at the recapping and that setting these beers aside significantly affects the quality of their beers.  I personally don't see it, but I also have no practical experience with the judging.  Thanks for your response and observations.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: denny on April 27, 2010, 05:57:14 PM
Just for info purposes, what is the standard serving temperature when judging?

Dave

There really isn't one.  Each comp decides for itself and does the best they can.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 06:07:00 PM
Some folks seem to be upset at the recapping and that setting these beers aside significantly affects the quality of their beers.  I personally don't see it, but I also have no practical experience with the judging.  Thanks for your response and observations.
See that's just stupid. Would these people prefer that their bottles sit open for 1-2 hours while other's are being judged? I mean, unless they want the mini BOS to be all flat beers.  ??? Give me a break.

From a competition standpoint they really try and do everything in their power to treat the beers as good as possible. The beers are kept cold the entire time, not thrown around, and the recapping is to try and save the carbonation and aroma. As for the temp, like Denny says I don't think there is a "standard", and although our beers were just kept in coolers, they were at a decent temp. Probably about 40° when they were served - although the sample size is small enough that it warms up fairly quickly during judging - and the judges do pay attention to that.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 27, 2010, 06:12:58 PM
Some folks seem to be upset at the recapping and that setting these beers aside significantly affects the quality of their beers.  I personally don't see it, but I also have no practical experience with the judging.  Thanks for your response and observations.
See that's just stupid. Would these people prefer that their bottles sit open for 1-2 hours while other's are being judged? I mean, unless they want the mini BOS to be all flat beers.  ??? Give me a break.

My take on it is that they prefer having a second bottle judged. 
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: bo_gator on April 27, 2010, 06:19:34 PM
Just for info purposes, what is the standard serving temperature when judging?

Dave

There really isn't one.  Each comp decides for itself and does the best they can.

However it is up to the highest ranking judge at each table to try and get the beers to the best temperature for the respective styles, even if this means letting them sit at room temp to warm up
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: denny on April 27, 2010, 06:20:18 PM
Some folks seem to be upset at the recapping and that setting these beers aside significantly affects the quality of their beers.  I personally don't see it, but I also have no practical experience with the judging.  Thanks for your response and observations.
See that's just stupid. Would these people prefer that their bottles sit open for 1-2 hours while other's are being judged? I mean, unless they want the mini BOS to be all flat beers.  ??? Give me a break.

My take on it is that they prefer having a second bottle judged. 

So, then, would they like to send 3 bottles instead 2?  You need to have a "just in case" bottle, so judging a different bottle for mini BOS means they'd have to send one more and each comp. location would have to handle and store 1/3 more bottles.  I think that the people who complain about this are also missing the fact that all the mini BOS beers are treated the same way, so if this was to negatively affect anything, it would affect them all the same.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: denny on April 27, 2010, 06:21:36 PM
Just for info purposes, what is the standard serving temperature when judging?

Dave

There really isn't one.  Each comp decides for itself and does the best they can.

However it is up to the highest ranking judge at each table to try and get the beers to the best temperature for the respective styles, even if this means letting them sit at room temp to warm up

Absolutely....letting them warm up is easy.  But there have been comps (names withheld to protect the guilty!) where the beers were served almost warm.  Not too much the judges can do about that. 
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 27, 2010, 06:30:49 PM
Some folks seem to be upset at the recapping and that setting these beers aside significantly affects the quality of their beers.  I personally don't see it, but I also have no practical experience with the judging.  Thanks for your response and observations.
See that's just stupid. Would these people prefer that their bottles sit open for 1-2 hours while other's are being judged? I mean, unless they want the mini BOS to be all flat beers.  ??? Give me a break.

My take on it is that they prefer having a second bottle judged.  

So, then, would they like to send 3 bottles instead 2?  You need to have a "just in case" bottle, so judging a different bottle for mini BOS means they'd have to send one more and each comp. location would have to handle and store 1/3 more bottles.  I think that the people who complain about this are also missing the fact that all the mini BOS beers are treated the same way, so if this was to negatively affect anything, it would affect them all the same.

You'd have to ask them.   :)

The conversations are around on the various forums.  For example, "...I rationalize [the entries] were victims of the AHA recapping on oxygen beer abuse and disrespect methodology."
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 06:37:02 PM
Agree with Denny. This is a massive competition. Sending more bottles just for a mini BOS is silly. The organizers are already dealing with hundreds and hundreds of bottles. Think about it, we had 2 (I think) regions this year hit the cap of 750 entries. That means they were already dealing with 750 bottles, can you imagine the headaches for those guys if they had to deal with 1500?
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 06:38:22 PM
You'd have to ask them.   :)

The conversations are around on the various forums.  For example, "...I rationalize [the entries] were victims of the AHA recapping on oxygen beer abuse and disrespect methodology."
Whoever said that is an idiot, and has no idea how this works. They are obviously just trying to make excuses for why they didn't win - and blame it on somebody else.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: akr71 on April 27, 2010, 06:40:49 PM
You'd have to ask them.   :)

The conversations are around on the various forums.  For example, "...I rationalize [the entries] were victims of the AHA recapping on oxygen beer abuse and disrespect methodology."
Whoever said that is an idiot, and has no idea how this works. They are obviously just trying to make excuses for why they didn't win - and blame it on somebody else.
Not to mention that any bottles that make to a mini-BOS are treated the same way, so it is still a level playing field...
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 06:47:30 PM
Exactly! Trust me, these bottles are not abused. And I have every bit of confidence that the condition of the beers in the mini BOS is identical to what it was during the normal flight.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: hamiltont on April 27, 2010, 07:01:51 PM
That means they were already dealing with 750 bottles, can you imagine the headaches for those guys if they had to deal with 1500?

Just had to say.  I bet they would have headaches from all the free beer after the comp was over. ;D 

Getting back to the topic. 750 entries has to be a daunting task to manage. I tip my hat to the NHC Regional & Finals hosts!!
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 27, 2010, 07:48:48 PM
Agreed! Those guys work their butts off for this comp. And it's not like they're getting paid for it
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: bluesman on April 27, 2010, 08:04:39 PM
Just for info purposes, what is the standard serving temperature when judging?

Dave

There really isn't one.  Each comp decides for itself and does the best they can.

However it is up to the highest ranking judge at each table to try and get the beers to the best temperature for the respective styles, even if this means letting them sit at room temp to warm up

One would only hope.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: dbeechum on April 27, 2010, 08:12:10 PM
One would only hope.

Never seen one yet not do it.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: SiameseMoose on April 27, 2010, 09:00:41 PM
I judged three flights in the East region, and did a mini-BOS for all of them. I will first say that I don't know of a better way to do it, but some of the beers clearly suffered from the delay more than others. For instance, I had light hybrids as my last flight. One of our first beers was an absolutely outstanding Kolsch. Not just better than any homebrewed version I'd had before, but better than half of the commercial versions I've tried (and I was in Cologne for three days last October, right after Munich, right before Belgium, not that I'm bragging or anything  ;D). When I had it in mini-BOS, I would estimate it had dropped from a 45 to a 35 level beer. It still got second, but a fresh bottle would have blown away the rest of the table. I don't worry about it, because it did move on, and in the second round there will be a fresh bottle for mini-BOS (I can't imagine this beer NOT making mini-BOS).

The other flights I had this year, Scottish and Irish, and IPA, were much less susceptible to any issues. However,I have experienced some degradation in other comps whenever I get pale light beers.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: gail on April 28, 2010, 01:01:03 AM
Some folks seem to be upset at the recapping and that setting these beers aside significantly affects the quality of their beers.  I personally don't see it, but I also have no practical experience with the judging.  Thanks for your response and observations.
All the beers going to mini-BOS have been recapped, usually very early on in the judges' tasting of the beer (at least I try to do it early to preserve the beer as much as possible).  That means all the beers going to mini-BOS essentially have a level playing field.
Do the beers change over time?  Yes.  All of them do.  Does the beer you're judging change over the time that you are assessing just one factor in that one beer?  Absolutely.  Beer is constantly evolving in aroma, taste, appearance.  
If you've ever judged or stewarded, I would bet you've seen how careful folks are with the beers--that has been my experience over many, many comps.  A level playing field for all of the beers has always been a primary goal of all the comps in which I've judged.
And YES, there were outstanding, fantastic, and downright incredible beers, meads and ciders this year for the 1st round.  Hats off to Janis and the regional organizers as well!
 
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: marty on April 28, 2010, 01:27:14 AM
You'd have to ask them.   :)

The conversations are around on the various forums.  For example, "...I rationalize [the entries] were victims of the AHA recapping on oxygen beer abuse and disrespect methodology."
Whoever said that is an idiot, and has no idea how this works. They are obviously just trying to make excuses for why they didn't win - and blame it on somebody else.

thats harsh, McDole isn't an idiot and he knows how it works
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 28, 2010, 01:59:09 AM
If it was truly McDole who said that, he should know better. I don't think any competition, especially this one, has a "beer abuse and disrespect methodology." That's just BS.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tom on April 28, 2010, 02:32:30 AM
Absolutely....letting them warm up is easy.  But there have been comps (names withheld to protect the guilty!) where the beers were served almost warm.  Not too much the judges can do about that. 
When we had the NHC in Denver, we had a "little miscommunication" with the fridge guys. Some tables put the bottle into a pitcher of ice water to cool down while they judged the previous entry.

I am in favor of having 2 bottles for the 1st round. A mini-BOS of American ales or IPAs can have 9 or 12 entries. It would be good to have fresh bottles.

"One can tell a good beer with only one sip, but it's best to be sure." old Czech proverb.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: denny on April 28, 2010, 03:21:38 PM
You'd have to ask them.   :)

The conversations are around on the various forums.  For example, "...I rationalize [the entries] were victims of the AHA recapping on oxygen beer abuse and disrespect methodology."

I haven't run across any of those comments, which of course is not say that they aren't there.  If I do see them, I'll certainly ask my question of the people making the comment!
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 28, 2010, 09:12:25 PM
My wife called to tell me my scoresheets were finally in.  Another year with another beer scoring a 44 and not moving on.  Tough competition!
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 28, 2010, 09:15:35 PM
Damn man. Well, that's a great score. You should be proud. What was the beer?
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 28, 2010, 09:34:32 PM
Baltic porter.  Last year was an RIS.

Heh, I'm not nearly as shocked as I was last year.   :)
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 28, 2010, 09:39:42 PM
I hear ya. It's hit and miss sometimes.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: mroakley on April 28, 2010, 10:47:43 PM
In looking at the results, and like my entries last year, highest score in the category too.   ;D

I blame the AHA.   :P
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 28, 2010, 10:58:28 PM
That's funny. I blame Jamil. I don't know how, but somehow this must be his fault.  ;D
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: dbeechum on April 28, 2010, 11:06:29 PM
If it helps, I'm sure Janis can arrange to have your bottles marked to make sure their not scored the highest in the round :)
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: rajraju on April 29, 2010, 10:59:04 AM
So in the Midwest region for the specialty category the highest overall (final assigned score) score is listed as 42.5 , which is what my score is, but I did not place. Scratching head?  ::)
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 29, 2010, 01:13:53 PM
Your beer most likely was in a mini-best of show, where the 2 or more flights were compared head to head.  Your beer scored well with the judges in its flight, and the other judges may have been grading tougher in their flight.  The mini-bos is the way that the lead judges from each flight can taste the best beers,and decide which ones advance.

It is tough to have a beer score so well and not go on, but it happens.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 29, 2010, 03:12:15 PM
A page or two back, I described my experience with how a mini BOS works. It was my first time judging so I obviously didn't judge the mini BOS round itself. But I did judge one of the flights leading up to it and and observed the mini BOS. It was an interesting experience.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: bluesman on April 30, 2010, 01:29:33 PM
A page or two back, I described my experience with how a mini BOS works. It was my first time judging so I obviously didn't judge the mini BOS round itself. But I did judge one of the flights leading up to it and and observed the mini BOS. It was an interesting experience.

Did you judge the NHC first round?
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on April 30, 2010, 03:39:48 PM
A page or two back, I described my experience with how a mini BOS works. It was my first time judging so I obviously didn't judge the mini BOS round itself. But I did judge one of the flights leading up to it and and observed the mini BOS. It was an interesting experience.

Did you judge the NHC first round?
Yes sir
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: marty on April 30, 2010, 08:28:36 PM
Maybe the simplest 'solution' would be to leave the max score off the posted results. I like seeing all those results across the region, and I would miss it if it was gone, but it always trips people up who don't understand why they had the highest score and didn't move on.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: rajraju on May 03, 2010, 11:06:53 AM
OK one final question:

Why wouldn't score sheets be completed for the mini BOS and included in the packet that is mailed back to the entrant?  These would be higher ranked judges I presume who would provide even better feedback in a perfect world that is.......

Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: gail on May 03, 2010, 12:42:03 PM
OK one final question:

Why wouldn't score sheets be completed for the mini BOS and included in the packet that is mailed back to the entrant?  These would be higher ranked judges I presume who would provide even better feedback in a perfect world that is.......


Because there aren't score sheets done in mini-BOS or BOS rounds.  The only task is to choose 1st, 2nd, 3rd place of the best beers sent by the flight judges.
Best way to understand the process is to steward or even to judge (better yet, take the BJCP exam).  Comps generally need all the volunteers they can get.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: babalu87 on May 03, 2010, 01:13:52 PM
OK one final question:

Why wouldn't score sheets be completed for the mini BOS and included in the packet that is mailed back to the entrant?  These would be higher ranked judges I presume who would provide even better feedback in a perfect world that is.......


Because there aren't score sheets done in mini-BOS or BOS rounds.  The only task is to choose 1st, 2nd, 3rd place of the best beers sent by the flight judges.
Best way to understand the process is to steward or even to judge (better yet, take the BJCP exam).  Comps generally need all the volunteers they can get.

Thats how I found out

One of the more interesthing things (beer related) I have ever seen was a BOS judging.
Especially fun when a few of the beers are yours
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: bearcat on May 03, 2010, 02:13:23 PM
Is there a way to find out what the beers where that placed in 23a? If it was a Smoked Rye IPA,  Oaked Scottish Ale, or Bourbon Vanilla Imperial Porter  or some other imaginative concoction .

Difficult category to judge if you have those combinations!
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: tankdeer on May 03, 2010, 03:28:40 PM
OK one final question:

Why wouldn't score sheets be completed for the mini BOS and included in the packet that is mailed back to the entrant?  These would be higher ranked judges I presume who would provide even better feedback in a perfect world that is.......


Because there aren't score sheets done in mini-BOS or BOS rounds.  The only task is to choose 1st, 2nd, 3rd place of the best beers sent by the flight judges.
Best way to understand the process is to steward or even to judge (better yet, take the BJCP exam).  Comps generally need all the volunteers they can get.

Thats how I found out

One of the more interesthing things (beer related) I have ever seen was a BOS judging.
Especially fun when a few of the beers are yours
Agreed. This really is the best way to understand it. Volunteer - the competition organizers will be happy to have you. Even if it's your first time.
Title: Re: Must be some outstanding NHC beer entries out there.
Post by: babalu87 on May 03, 2010, 04:20:41 PM
Agreed. This really is the best way to understand it. Volunteer - the competition organizers will be happy to have you. Even if it's your first time.
[/quote]

Unless your THAT GUY who shows up , eats and then leaves with a bag of chips.............................................