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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: jimrod on October 31, 2014, 05:12:31 PM

Title: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: jimrod on October 31, 2014, 05:12:31 PM
I boiled a gallon down to a quart just like the directions required for a Tranquir House clone but I didn't notice any carmel flavor until the beer got 8 months old. Why is that?

I have recently repeated that recipe an did not notice any carmel flavor after 3.5 months, do you think the carmel flavor will eventually appear?
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: denny on October 31, 2014, 06:29:27 PM
Boy, it's hard to say.  it shows up immediately for me.  Don't know why it doesn't for you.  Maybe you're expecting a different type of flavor?
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 31, 2014, 06:49:17 PM
I don't get it either. The flavor is there from the get go. What shows up after 8 months sounds more like a little oxidation which can seem like a heavy unpleasant caramel to me.

EDIT  -  Saw that you reduced to a quart.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 31, 2014, 06:57:26 PM
I don't get it either. The flavor is there from the get go. What shows up after 8 months sounds more like a little oxidation which can seem like a heavy unpleasant caramel to me. How far down did you reduce the runnings ?

I've never gotten it to last that long, but in cleaning the keg and lines, ithe residue was definitely a bit gooey-er than with a standard Scottish Ale!
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 31, 2014, 07:02:39 PM
I don't get it either. The flavor is there from the get go. What shows up after 8 months sounds more like a little oxidation which can seem like a heavy unpleasant caramel to me. How far down did you reduce the runnings ?

I've never gotten it to last that long, but in cleaning the keg and lines, ithe residue was definitely a bit gooey-er than with a standard Scottish Ale!

I hear ya, it goes quick for a big beer !  Great stuff.

OP - Dumb question, but I assume this was a 5 gallon batch you brewed ?  Just thinking that if it were a bigger batch you'd want to reduce more first runnings to have proportionally the same impact.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: jeffy on October 31, 2014, 11:43:11 PM
Yeah, I'm in the camp that says you're tasting oxidation as it ages.  You should get the caramel flavor from the malt immediately.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: klickitat jim on November 01, 2014, 07:48:49 AM
You guys should explain what kind of oxidation. Most will be thinking that causes cardboard wet paper, not carmel...
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 01, 2014, 02:47:08 PM
You guys should explain what kind of oxidation. Most will be thinking that causes cardboard wet paper, not carmel...

This blog references a study by Charlie Bamforth on how bottled beer changes with aging.  Developing strong caramel flavor over time is one of those changes according to him. I noticed it back when I used to buy a lot of dusty imports.

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: klickitat jim on November 01, 2014, 11:15:20 PM
You guys should explain what kind of oxidation. Most will be thinking that causes cardboard wet paper, not carmel...

This blog references a study by Charlie Bamforth on how bottled beer changes with aging.  Developing strong caramel flavor over time is one of those changes according to him. I noticed it back when I used to buy a lot of dusty imports.

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/

I get lost when Charlie goes too deep into the chemistry. My point I guess is that when we say oxidation many people think of that papery smell and flavor like you get if you let o2 in when bottling. Nonenol I guess is what they call it. But there are other effects from other types of oxidation. I like your dusty bottle analogy. I understand that oxygen interacting with other compounds can create a variety of off flavors over time. I usually pick these up in older dark beers. Sometimes carmel like, later it gets kind of like amaretto, and in the end its like soy sauce. I'm not keen on precisely what is going on but I believe its oxygen that has bonded with the menanoidins in darker beers and it starts throwing these flavors the older it gets.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 01, 2014, 11:26:45 PM

I get lost when Charlie goes too deep into the chemistry.

Trust me, I feel the same. I try to hit the high notes in an article like that. The caramel thing, to me, comes after a while in the bottle. Not like a cardboard-y oxidation that shows up pretty quickly. Actually, the first 2 or 3 alts I tried were old dusty German imports and I just assumed I didn't like the style because of that old caramel thing. But a couple friends of mine brewed alts (and medaled with them IIRC) - I tried them and was blown away at how much I liked them. Now I brew alts too, but I never would've if the imports were all I had to go on.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: BrewingRover on November 02, 2014, 10:09:38 PM
You guys should explain what kind of oxidation. Most will be thinking that causes cardboard wet paper, not carmel...

This blog references a study by Charlie Bamforth on how bottled beer changes with aging.  Developing strong caramel flavor over time is one of those changes according to him. I noticed it back when I used to buy a lot of dusty imports.

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/
That explains why the Fullers ESB you buy here tastes nothing like the cask beer they serve in London.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 03, 2014, 12:59:46 PM
You guys should explain what kind of oxidation. Most will be thinking that causes cardboard wet paper, not carmel...

This blog references a study by Charlie Bamforth on how bottled beer changes with aging.  Developing strong caramel flavor over time is one of those changes according to him. I noticed it back when I used to buy a lot of dusty imports.

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/
That explains why the Fullers ESB you buy here tastes nothing like the cask beer they serve in London.
The oxidation is not kind to the ESB's flavors. Bottled ESB also is a higher OG/ABV, as it has more of the first runnings in the parti gyle, see the Ron Pattinson article in the latest Zymurgy.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 03, 2014, 01:09:40 PM
Yeah, Fuller's can be all over the place in terms of that. Sometimes I'll pick up a cold bottle or two that's excellent, other times it's ok at best. Obviously it's all in the age. Someday I'm hoping to get over there and get some at the source (along with Fuller's London Pride as well) !
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 03, 2014, 01:11:07 PM
Yeah, Fuller's can be all over the place in terms of that. Sometimes I'll pick up a cold bottle or two that's excellent, other times it's ok at best. Obviously it's all in the age. Someday I'm hoping to get over there and get some at the source (along with Fuller's Pride as well) !
Drink some Chiswick Bitter, don't miss that one. It doesn't travel well at all.
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: klickitat jim on November 03, 2014, 01:15:40 PM
London Pride is a beautiful thing
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 03, 2014, 01:23:06 PM
I'd have to have some Timothy Taylor Landlord on site, too. Jeff, I assume you did ?
Title: Re: carmel taste to wee heavy
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 03, 2014, 01:49:38 PM
I'd have to have some Timothy Taylor Landlord on site, too. Jeff, I assume you did ?

You can find it often in London, I haven't been to the Yorkshires. Great pint of bitter.