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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: factory on November 03, 2014, 11:44:59 PM

Title: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: factory on November 03, 2014, 11:44:59 PM
Recipe: 5.5 lbs 2 row
1.5 lbs flaked rice
.5 oz hallertau @ 60
.5 oz hallertau @ 20

mashed 1.5 qts/lb at 150F for 90 minutes

boiled 90 minutes down to 1.039 sg. cooled to 50F. pitched 3L stirred starter of WLP840. fermented at 50F until 1.015 and raised temp for diacetyl rest to 65F.  Got to 1.010 (same as forced ferment test) and let it stay there for an extra 4 days.  slowly cooled to 34F (5F per day). I know, this was unnecessary, but I did it anyway.  Been lagering for 2 weeks.  Tastes like buttered popcorn.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: majorvices on November 04, 2014, 12:19:02 AM
You could try krausening - take a small pitch of actively fermenting beer and add it to the keg/fermentor/whatever. I've had it work for me in the past. The yeast scrub the diacetyl.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 04, 2014, 12:35:20 AM
You could try krausening - take a small pitch of actively fermenting beer and add it to the keg/fermentor/whatever. I've had it work for me in the past. The yeast scrub the diacetyl.

+1 Safale us-05 has done the trick for me in the past. and some extended lagering should clean it up after that.

when i first started making lagers i had this issue with a few batches-drove me nuts. pitching around 47F and keeping it under or around 50F max for a few days really helped me.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: dmtaylor on November 04, 2014, 12:47:50 AM
Time is your friend.  Wait another 7 to 10 days and I can almost guarantee you with about 90% certainty that your diacetyl will be gone.  If not then warm it back up again for a second diacetyl rest and keep it there a week.  Diacetyl lasts for roughly 3 weeks in my experience.  Since you've only lagered for 2 then it's not done yet.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: majorvices on November 04, 2014, 01:06:01 AM

Time is your friend.  Wait another 7 to 10 days and I can almost guarantee you with about 90% certainty that your diacetyl will be gone.  If not then warm it back up again for a second diacetyl rest and keep it there a week.  Diacetyl lasts for roughly 3 weeks in my experience.  Since you've only lagered for 2 then it's not done yet.

This is not my experience. While the diacetyl may fade significantly it will never go away unless you have active yeast metabolizing it.
Title: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 04, 2014, 01:10:51 AM

Time is your friend.  Wait another 7 to 10 days and I can almost guarantee you with about 90% certainty that your diacetyl will be gone.  If not then warm it back up again for a second diacetyl rest and keep it there a week.  Diacetyl lasts for roughly 3 weeks in my experience.  Since you've only lagered for 2 then it's not done yet.

This is not my experience. While the diacetyl may fade significantly it will never go away unless you have active yeast metabolizing it.

Same with me. I will admit I have a hyper sensitivity with diacetyl, but if the concentration is great enough, lagering alone wouldn't do the trick for me. Fortunately learning better lager pitch and fermentation temps with gallon starters did away with the problem for me.


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Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: dmtaylor on November 04, 2014, 01:17:49 AM
Well, prolong your D rest then.  It might help that I'm lazy and often leave the temp up in the 60s for a full week or even 2 before bottling, and that I bottle condition rather than keg.  YMMV
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: majorvices on November 04, 2014, 11:57:02 AM
When I brew lagers I start out cold and only leave it cold for about 3-4 days and then start slowly ramping it up until I'm at 58 till mostly finished. Then I let it sit a few days at 62 before crashing. I don't ever have diacetyl using that method.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: factory on November 04, 2014, 02:01:47 PM
This is only my third lager attempt, so I need to figure out my fermentation profile.  I'll try it cold (under 50F) for the next one with an extended d-rest.  If that doesn't work, I'll try the slow ramp-up.  Something will work I'm sure.  Also, I had a friend come over and try the beer last night.  He can't taste the diacetyl, so maybe I'm just hyper-sensitive to it.  I'm making a starter of US-05 today, so I'll pitch that at hi-krausen after I warm the beer back up, and let the yeasties have at it.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: dmtaylor on November 04, 2014, 02:55:42 PM
Krausening certainly won't hurt and might help.

However I would still argue that warmth and time are all you really need, with or without krausening.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: majorvices on November 04, 2014, 03:20:40 PM
Krausening certainly won't hurt and might help.

However I would still argue that warmth and time are all you really need, with or without krausening.

My experience is the yeast have to be active to metabolize the diacetyl. Surprised that is has worked for you just to leave the beer warm after fermentation has finished. But stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 04, 2014, 03:39:07 PM
Krausening certainly won't hurt and might help.

However I would still argue that warmth and time are all you really need, with or without krausening.

My experience is the yeast have to be active to metabolize the diacetyl. Surprised that is has worked for you just to leave the beer warm after fermentation has finished. But stranger things have happened.

so since he bottles vs co2 carb in a keg, isnt he getting yeast metabolizing priming sugar and therefore metabolizing any diacetyl? just a thought.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: majorvices on November 04, 2014, 03:56:10 PM
i guess it is possible but I doubt it is enough. Very little activity during carbonation. But I'm not certain.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 04, 2014, 03:57:19 PM
i guess it is possible but I doubt it is enough. Very little activity during carbonation. But I'm not certain.

just struck me as possible-perhaps someone might have more experience with this and have the answer.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: denny on November 04, 2014, 06:20:50 PM
Krausening certainly won't hurt and might help.

However I would still argue that warmth and time are all you really need, with or without krausening.

My experience is the yeast have to be active to metabolize the diacetyl. Surprised that is has worked for you just to leave the beer warm after fermentation has finished. But stranger things have happened.

so since he bottles vs co2 carb in a keg, isnt he getting yeast metabolizing priming sugar and therefore metabolizing any diacetyl? just a thought.

Not nearly enough, though.  When I've krausened, I've needed 1-2 qt. actively fermenting for a 5 gal. batch.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: thirsty on November 04, 2014, 08:45:21 PM
Well, I'm with Dave. I find that warmth and time really help get rid of any diacetyl I might have.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: dmtaylor on November 04, 2014, 09:45:26 PM
All I know is, with many of the lagers I have made, a few of which had diacetyl very early on, it was gone in 3 weeks in the bottles conditioning at cellar temps around 60-ish degrees.  The priming sugar no doubt wakes up the yeast again.  If kegging and lagering ice cold in the 30s, this might not work at all.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: majorvices on November 05, 2014, 02:13:05 PM
All I know is, with many of the lagers I have made, a few of which had diacetyl very early on, it was gone in 3 weeks in the bottles conditioning at cellar temps around 60-ish degrees.  The priming sugar no doubt wakes up the yeast again.  If kegging and lagering ice cold in the 30s, this might not work at all.

I wish it would have worked for me. I won't argue that it won't fade. But once a lager has had diacetyl I have never had it go away completely without the krausening method, and even that didn't always work.

Since I haven't bottle conditioned a lager in 10 years or so I don't have anything helpful to add to that.

I am extremely sensitive to diacetyl. Perhaps I am picking up what some others can't? If so, lucky you. ;)
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: dmtaylor on November 05, 2014, 03:02:13 PM
I don't mind a slight hint of diacetyl in some beer styles, as long as it is quite slight, but this is a matter of personal preference.  I know a lot of people HATE it with a passion, and that's their choice.  I'm about as sensitive to it as many good judges are (I'm Certified) so I don't think I'm missing it either, but of course there's always somebody else out there more sensitive and more picky than I am.  So yeah, it's possible I'm not perfect.  However I do try to be.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 05, 2014, 03:26:42 PM
Yeah I'm in the hater camp. I've picked up taste of diacetyl in commercial brews, mostly lighter pills. It may be an intentional attribute but it's not my favorite.


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Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: erockrph on November 05, 2014, 04:00:18 PM
Yeah I'm in the hater camp. I've picked up taste of diacetyl in commercial brews, mostly lighter pills. It may be an intentional attribute but it's not my favorite.

+1 - I'm super sensitive myself. I can't drink Red Hook at all any more. Their Pils tastes like drinking liquid movie theater popcorn to me.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 07, 2014, 02:57:03 AM
I have almost no sensitivity to diacetyl but I am crazy sensitive to clove and similar spiciness.  I have 20 gallons of German lager made for a Christmas party that I will do a D rest on this weekend just for safety sake, but I won't be able to tell if it gets rid of it or just reduces it.  I was at a club meeting at a regional brewpub and an accomplished judge told me to try a beer to be able to taste what diacetyl is and I told him that I perceived a little slickness on the tongue, but no discernible taste issue.  He said I have much to learn, so I am signed up for his BJCP tasting class this winter.  Call me palate deprived, but willing to learn.
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 07, 2014, 03:57:44 AM
I have almost no sensitivity to diacetyl but I am crazy sensitive to clove and similar spiciness.  I have 20 gallons of German lager made for a Christmas party that I will do a D rest on this weekend just for safety sake, but I won't be able to tell if it gets rid of it or just reduces it.  I was at a club meeting at a regional brewpub and an accomplished judge told me to try a beer to be able to taste what diacetyl is and I told him that I perceived a little slickness on the tongue, but no discernible taste issue.  He said I have much to learn, so I am signed up for his BJCP tasting class this winter.  Call me palate deprived, but willing to learn.

A high % of the population is blind to diacetyl. That is due to genetics and you can't learn to taste diaceyl if you can't, it is like being color blind to some colors. My sensitivity is medium high to high. I have to use the slickness test for levels sensitive people call out Diacetyl! Sam Smiths beers, I get it. Ringwood breweries, I usually get it.

Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 07, 2014, 04:23:32 AM
I have almost no sensitivity to diacetyl but I am crazy sensitive to clove and similar spiciness.  I have 20 gallons of German lager made for a Christmas party that I will do a D rest on this weekend just for safety sake, but I won't be able to tell if it gets rid of it or just reduces it.  I was at a club meeting at a regional brewpub and an accomplished judge told me to try a beer to be able to taste what diacetyl is and I told him that I perceived a little slickness on the tongue, but no discernible taste issue.  He said I have much to learn, so I am signed up for his BJCP tasting class this winter.  Call me palate deprived, but willing to learn.

A high % of the population is blind to diacetyl. That is due to genetics and you can't learn to taste diaceyl if you can't, it is like being color blind to some colors. My sensitivity is medium high to high. I have to use the slickness test for levels sensitive people call out Diacetyl! Sam Smiths beers, I get it. Ringwood breweries, I usually get it.



I heard of a few guys that either get it on the end of their nose, or as slickness or as a soapiness.  Hopefully I will fall in there somewhere as I had a lager recently that a couple guys said was not great and as it was a step up lager, to just get enough yeast to do a full batch to pitch into, I wasn't too worried, but I suspected diacetyl issues.  Nobody could give me a good descriptor for the flaw, so I don't know what the issue was for sure,but I suspect diacetyl. I tried my best to tell what they tasted, but at this point I guess I must admit my blind spot...
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 07, 2014, 04:41:50 AM
I have almost no sensitivity to diacetyl but I am crazy sensitive to clove and similar spiciness.  I have 20 gallons of German lager made for a Christmas party that I will do a D rest on this weekend just for safety sake, but I won't be able to tell if it gets rid of it or just reduces it.  I was at a club meeting at a regional brewpub and an accomplished judge told me to try a beer to be able to taste what diacetyl is and I told him that I perceived a little slickness on the tongue, but no discernible taste issue.  He said I have much to learn, so I am signed up for his BJCP tasting class this winter.  Call me palate deprived, but willing to learn.

A high % of the population is blind to diacetyl. That is due to genetics and you can't learn to taste diaceyl if you can't, it is like being color blind to some colors. My sensitivity is medium high to high. I have to use the slickness test for levels sensitive people call out Diacetyl! Sam Smiths beers, I get it. Ringwood breweries, I usually get it.



I heard of a few guys that either get it on the end of their nose, or as slickness or as a soapiness.  Hopefully I will fall in there somewhere as I had a lager recently that a couple guys said was not great and as it was a step up lager, to just get enough yeast to do a full batch to pitch into, I wasn't too worried, but I suspected diacetyl issues.  Nobody could give me a good descriptor for the flaw, so I don't know what the issue was for sure,but I suspect diacetyl. I tried my best to tell what they tasted, but at this point I guess I must admit my blind spot...

I should I say the % is around 20. I judge fairly often with a National Lever that is blind to diacetyl. We make a great pair! Another National Level judge is hyper sensitive to diacetyl, but readily admits he is blind to DMS.

We all have our palates and have to live/adapt to them.

Good luck on the BJCP tasting class.

Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: brewinhard on November 09, 2014, 12:01:07 AM
A high % of the population is blind to diacetyl. That is due to genetics and you can't learn to taste diaceyl if you can't, it is like being color blind to some colors. My sensitivity is medium high to high. I have to use the slickness test for levels sensitive people call out Diacetyl! Sam Smiths beers, I get it. Ringwood breweries, I usually get it.

And that is why I don't care for the Ringwood strain at all!
Title: Re: diacetyl in a lite american lager
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 09, 2014, 01:21:44 AM
Not a Ringwood fan either.