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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: BrewBama on November 14, 2014, 02:04:06 AM

Title: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: BrewBama on November 14, 2014, 02:04:06 AM
I generally use Ken Swartz's Batch Sparge advice to increase my grain bill.  Normally I multiply the base grain by 1.09 or 1.08 - close to a lb of base malt.  I have been thinking that I should increase each of the fermentable grains in the grain bill together to reach the ~lb increase.  However, I am not 100% sure which grains are fermentable and which are not.  Can someone take a look and tell me if I am correct (below)?  Am I close?

I am brewing the Regal Pale Ale recipe again (for the third time - I love this stuff).  http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/regal-pale-ale/ 

This is the grain bill:

8.5 lb (3.9 kg) | Pale 2-Row malt (fermentable)
10.0 oz (283 g) | 20° L Crystal malt (non fermentable)
5.0 oz (142 g) | 80° L Crystal malt (non fermentable)
5.0 oz (142 g) | CaraVienne malt (non fermentable)
7.0 oz (142 g) | Wheat malt (fermentable)
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: Stevie on November 14, 2014, 02:09:24 AM
I've never adjust other than to adjust for efficiency. When I do, I only adjust the base malts, so in your case, yes the 2row and wheat.
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: brewinhard on November 14, 2014, 06:36:03 PM
I do not batch sparge, but I do perform many no-sparge brews.  I follow the calculations in Palmer's How to Brew and I love the results.  It is a bit time consuming doing the math, but after you figure out which calculations are needed and which really aren't, then things go a bit more quickly.  When determining my Sc (scale-up factor) it is mentioned by Palmer that ALL grains are to be increased by this factor number.  For example, if my Sc is calculated to be 1.24, then all base and specialty grains are increased by this factor as well.  I have had fantastic results with this process resulting in a rich, smooth, pH balanced wort profile. 

Now, when I used to fly sparge all the time, I would only increase the base malt % to hit my efficiency numbers in my brewing software.  Just reporting what I have experienced and observed. 
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: a10t2 on November 14, 2014, 06:56:41 PM
Normally I multiply the base grain by 1.09 or 1.08 - close to a lb of base malt.

Looks like Ken's site is offline. What does the factor of 1.09 mean?

Anyway, if you're only doing relatively small efficiency corrections, it hardly matters, but I would scale only the base malt(s).

I'll take another opportunity to plug my batch sparging calculator: http://seanterrill.com/2013/10/05/batch-sparging-calculator/
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: denny on November 14, 2014, 08:41:53 PM
I generally use Ken Swartz's Batch Sparge advice to increase my grain bill.  Normally I multiply the base grain by 1.09 or 1.08 - close to a lb of base malt.  I have been thinking that I should increase each of the fermentable grains in the grain bill together to reach the ~lb increase.  However, I am not 100% sure which grains are fermentable and which are not.  Can someone take a look and tell me if I am correct (below)?  Am I close?

I am brewing the Regal Pale Ale recipe again (for the third time - I love this stuff).  http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/regal-pale-ale/ 

This is the grain bill:

8.5 lb (3.9 kg) | Pale 2-Row malt (fermentable)
10.0 oz (283 g) | 20° L Crystal malt (non fermentable)
5.0 oz (142 g) | 80° L Crystal malt (non fermentable)
5.0 oz (142 g) | CaraVienne malt (non fermentable)
7.0 oz (142 g) | Wheat malt (fermentable)

I actually worked with Ken on those figures by feeding him my data.  I overshot my OG every time.  we finally reached the conclusion that you should just know the efficiency of your system and adjust to that, not necessarily becasue you're batch sparging.  I average 83% efficiency batch sparging, so I certainly wouldn't want to add more grain.  Although I guess in a way I already am since that's apart of my overall system efficiency.
Title: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: BrewBama on November 15, 2014, 03:50:21 AM
...  I average 83% efficiency batch sparging...

What's your secret to 80+% efficiency. I usually get 70-ish%.
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: dmtaylor on November 15, 2014, 04:13:41 AM
What's your secret to 80+% efficiency. I usually get 70-ish%.

Crush well and sparge well.  Got your own mill?  That will hurt you if you don't, although you could try a double crush at your LHBS.  But if you can set your own mill tight at home, better.  You need to find the balance between crushing too light to where you efficiency suffers vs. crushing too hard to where you can't runoff or sparge very fast.  For most people the magic number is in the 80s.  My average right now is 84%.  It was higher in the past but I got worried that if it gets too high the beer might taste less grainy and more watery, due to less grain required to get the same amount of gravity.  Still need to test this theory further.

And try to get your first & second runnings to have equal volumes.  For example if your pre-boil volume is 7 gallons, then strive to get 3.5 gallons out of the mash and 3.5 gallons out of the sparge.  Science has proven that this will always maximize batch sparge efficiency.  Denny says it doesn't matter too much, but hey, my average efficiency is a point higher than his, so who you gonna believe?  ;)
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: fmader on November 15, 2014, 04:52:02 AM
...  I average 83% efficiency batch sparging...

What's your secret to 80+% efficiency. I usually get 70-ish%.

Blue cooler.
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: tonyccopeland on November 15, 2014, 05:31:10 AM
I switched to a cooler batch sparge setup this summer and found making my mash thinner helped quite a bit, 1.5 quarts per  pound versus 1.2 quarts per pound improved my mash efficiency +11%.  I think running multiple batches with the same grist was helpful in troubleshhoting/dialing in my system.
Title: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: BrewBama on November 15, 2014, 01:48:30 PM
Great tips. I have a blue cooler and I calc to get equal runnings.  I do not have a grain mill (i hear Santa is coming to town). I have to try a thinner mash until then.

My mash lauter is usually lower than expected and my sparge lauter is usually higher than expected. It works out in the end to be in the 70(s).
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 15, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
...  I average 83% efficiency batch sparging...

What's your secret to 80+% efficiency. I usually get 70-ish%.

+1 on leaving grain bill alone until you try the process with your system.  for me, my efficiency went up after Denny convinced me to give the batch sparge a try and see for myself. first key was buy my own mill and figure out how fine i could crush based upon my system ( i use copper manifold in bottom of my cooler). then managing my PH, and good mashing technique ensuring full conversion potential. for me, doing that gets me mid 80's efficiency all day long. i also stopped having any issues with over sparging - tannin extraction, etc.

good luck-dont be afraid to experiment.
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 15, 2014, 01:57:47 PM
...  I average 83% efficiency batch sparging...

What's your secret to 80+% efficiency. I usually get 70-ish%.

+1 on leaving grain bill alone until you try the process with your system.  for me, my efficiency went up after Denny convinced me to give the batch sparge a try and see for myself. first key was buy my own mill and figure out how fine i could crush based upon my system ( i use copper manifold in bottom of my cooler). then managing my PH, and good mashing technique ensuring full conversion potential. for me, doing that gets me mid 80's efficiency all day long. i also stopped having any issues with over sparging - tannin extraction, etc.

good luck-dont be afraid to experiment.

+1
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 15, 2014, 02:35:08 PM
Here's my mash I just finished using principles I listed previously:

(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/360x360q90/14/11/15/050b2963f65ae70b5335f4a4e0da2728.jpg)
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: denny on November 15, 2014, 05:16:51 PM
...  I average 83% efficiency batch sparging...

What's your secret to 80+% efficiency. I usually get 70-ish%.

I don't really try for it...it just happens.  I crush very fine, I use a high liquor to grist ratio, I give the mash plenty of time to fully convert, my cooler has no dead space to account for...I dunno, there's no secret....it's just what I do.
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: denny on November 15, 2014, 05:17:51 PM

And try to get your first & second runnings to have equal volumes.  For example if your pre-boil volume is 7 gallons, then strive to get 3.5 gallons out of the mash and 3.5 gallons out of the sparge.  Science has proven that this will always maximize batch sparge efficiency.  Denny says it doesn't matter too much, but hey, my average efficiency is a point higher than his, so who you gonna believe?  ;)

which only proves my point!  :)
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: a10t2 on November 15, 2014, 05:48:21 PM
What's your secret to 80+% efficiency. I usually get 70-ish%.

The lauter efficiency for almost any batch sparge will be over 70%. If you get full conversion efficiency, then mash efficiency should only be under 70% for very big beers. So either you have a lot of dead space, or your conversion efficiency is low. That could be due to any one, or more, of the mash parameters (temperature, pH, crush, thickness, time) being out of its optimal range. Once you optimize all those parameters, efficiency should be very predictable.

My mash lauter is usually lower than expected and my sparge lauter is usually higher than expected.

This is a dead giveaway that conversion isn't complete at the end of the mash rest. Rest longer and see what happens, or try a psuedo-mashout at ~160°F before lautering to try to accelerate conversion.
Title: Re: Batch Sparge Grain Bill Increase
Post by: dmtaylor on November 15, 2014, 10:52:09 PM

And try to get your first & second runnings to have equal volumes.  For example if your pre-boil volume is 7 gallons, then strive to get 3.5 gallons out of the mash and 3.5 gallons out of the sparge.  Science has proven that this will always maximize batch sparge efficiency.  Denny says it doesn't matter too much, but hey, my average efficiency is a point higher than his, so who you gonna believe?  ;)

which only proves my point!  :)

True... true.  :)