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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: AnimALE on November 21, 2014, 03:14:55 PM

Title: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on November 21, 2014, 03:14:55 PM
Im pretty new to lagers and my question is what gravity should you start the D rest..For example say you brewed a 1.050 beer and your target FG is 1.010 start the D rest at 1.020? Or at the very end of primary? I hear alot of different opinions on the subject
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: klickitat jim on November 21, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
Generally speaking, before it's complete so the yeast are not going dormant yet, but after the warmer temp won't negatively effect flavor. I think your 1.020 idea would be fine. That's about 75% done.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on November 21, 2014, 03:27:29 PM
Cool so the 75% finished ramp the temp to 60's for a few days then proceed to lagering..thank you
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: morticaixavier on November 21, 2014, 04:11:05 PM
Cool so the 75% finished ramp the temp to 60's for a few days then proceed to lagering..thank you

ramp up the temp until it's done whether that is a few days or a couple weeks. let the beer guide you. When the gravity is stable and the beer tastes good then lager
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on November 21, 2014, 04:11:59 PM
Cool so the 75% finished ramp the temp to 60's for a few days then proceed to lagering..thank you

ramp up the temp until it's done whether that is a few days or a couple weeks. let the beer guide you. When the gravity is stable and the beer tastes good then lager

Gotcha.. right on thanks
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 21, 2014, 04:18:03 PM
75% is a good rule of thumb, sometimes I make sure I have at least 2 degrees Plato to go when I ramp up. Taste the beer to decide if you need more time at the elevated temperature.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: brewinhard on November 21, 2014, 09:01:55 PM
I play it by ear with my lagers.  I typically will start to bump up the temps a couple degrees F at a time when I first notice the krausen dropping back into the beer.  That tells me the yeast have past their peak work time and need a bit more warmth to finish properly and clean up after themselves. 
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: morticaixavier on November 21, 2014, 10:28:04 PM
I'll kick with what I have been doing with lagers:

pitch at 45-50f and hold there until day 5ish. bump 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I get to 65. hold there until done and then back off 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I'm at or around 32 and hold till there is space in a keg.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: davidgzach on November 24, 2014, 01:43:58 PM
I would err on the side of being late than early though.  If you pitched properly then you should typically not even need a D-rest.  I bring my lagers up to 65 for 2-3 days then crash to 32 anyway.  I played with stepping it up and down but came to find it made no difference that I could tell and took too much attention.  YMMV.

Dave
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: reverseapachemaster on November 24, 2014, 03:56:24 PM
Ramping up at 1020 would be the right course of action if you know that beer is going to reach FG at 1010 or less. If that beer stops on you in the teens then you may not have enough fermentation to rid yourself of diacetyl (or its precursors).
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 24, 2014, 10:43:35 PM
FWIW, just ran my helles lager though the process. pitched at 47F and held fermentation at 49-50F for almost 6 days, took a sample and had gone from 1.055 to 1.018, and i warmed part of sample, left part unwarmed, covered both and then when warm sample was back to room temp, uncovered and tasted.There was a very slight hint of diacetyl in the warmed sample. let it rise to 65F where i held for 2 days for d-rest. took reading just now, at 1.014 (likely done) and sample (warmed and compared to unwarmed) is 100% diacetyl free (at least to my ultra sensitive taste).
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: brewinhard on November 24, 2014, 11:27:38 PM
I'll kick with what I have been doing with lagers:

pitch at 45-50f and hold there until day 5ish. bump 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I get to 65. hold there until done and then back off 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I'm at or around 32 and hold till there is space in a keg.

Have you noticed any O2/airlock liquid suckback when you are dropping the temps in this fashion or even when you are holding it at 32 until there is an available keg? 
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on November 24, 2014, 11:31:51 PM
I'll kick with what I have been doing with lagers:

pitch at 45-50f and hold there until day 5ish. bump 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I get to 65. hold there until done and then back off 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I'm at or around 32 and hold till there is space in a keg.

Have you noticed any O2/airlock liquid suckback when you are dropping the temps in this fashion or even when you are holding it at 32 until there is an available keg?

i have not noticed it. i generally use a little vodka in a freshly sanitized airlock when dropping down around freezing, because water freezes and 80 proof doesn't so much.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: klickitat jim on November 25, 2014, 12:14:17 AM
I'll kick with what I have been doing with lagers:

pitch at 45-50f and hold there until day 5ish. bump 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I get to 65. hold there until done and then back off 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I'm at or around 32 and hold till there is space in a keg.

Have you noticed any O2/airlock liquid suckback when you are dropping the temps in this fashion or even when you are holding it at 32 until there is an available keg?
Pull the cap and bubbler out and cover it with foil to avoid suck back.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: wingnut on November 25, 2014, 12:29:28 PM
in my experience, a D-rest of 3 to 5 degrees with about 25% to go is my goal.   However, I have had many instances where I had to choose to bump up the temp early, or not at all due to having to travel out of town.   I have found that anywhere after 50% done seems to give the same results.   

The only other bit of advice I would give is even when you have a steady final gravity, you may need to leave the beer alone for another week or two.  Taste the beer when you think it is done, and look at it too.  I find that at 8 to 11 days, the beer is at a steady gravity, but still cloudy and depending on the yeast, I still detect diacetyl.  The cloudy is yeast still in suspension doing what they need to do for the lager.... dont cold crash yet if the yeast is still clouding the beer... let them do their work.  Let the beer stay at the d-rest temp for up to another two to three weeks.  (I have not had good results with the cool one or two degrees a day many people do).   

I find that the yeast will settle out just fine given time, and time is what the yeast need to clean ther beer up. 


Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: klickitat jim on November 25, 2014, 02:04:09 PM
This brings to mind that many seem to pay less attention on brew day and then fuss over that fermentor way too much. Some of my better beers were left alone at the end, because I had other things taking up my time. Maybe a good thing to do is just find something else to do for a week or two after terminal gravity.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 25, 2014, 02:34:01 PM
This brings to mind that many seem to pay less attention on brew day and then fuss over that fermentor way too much. Some of my better beers were left alone at the end, because I had other things taking up my time. Maybe a good thing to do is just find something else to do for a week or two after terminal gravity.


^^^^^ I agree, Jim. At the home level, little or nothing bad (and usually something good) comes from leaving the beer on the yeast an extra week. I never have the byproducts in my beers that come from racking too soon. No coincidence.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: morticaixavier on November 25, 2014, 02:41:42 PM
I'll kick with what I have been doing with lagers:

pitch at 45-50f and hold there until day 5ish. bump 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I get to 65. hold there until done and then back off 5 degrees every 12 hours (or so) until I'm at or around 32 and hold till there is space in a keg.

Have you noticed any O2/airlock liquid suckback when you are dropping the temps in this fashion or even when you are holding it at 32 until there is an available keg?

I use an 'S' type airlock so no liquid suck back happens. air, I assume, does enter but I have not seen any ill effects from that. I have not brewed a very delicate light lager as of yet but I have brewed marzens that stood up just fine over the 1-3 month life of a batch, kolsch as well.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 02, 2014, 11:20:48 PM
I missed the D rest window i think..it has been in primary since oct 23rd..i pulled a sample today( day 9) and i was at the target final gravity of 1010 already..I tasted it and i detect diacetyl..not a butter bomb but its there..I took it out of the chamber gonna let it rise to the 60's..Is there still hope that the yeast will clean it up? i gave the fermenter a little swirl to rouse the yeast..Anything else i can or should do?
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 02, 2014, 11:26:53 PM
its going to be tough-just depends on how much of the yeast is still in suspension and working on your behalf. let it rise up to 65F and hold for 48 hours anyway. if you still detect it, you can make a small 1 liter starter and when it krausens, pitch it in. us-05 works well for this.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 02, 2014, 11:33:37 PM
its going to be tough-just depends on how much of the yeast is still in suspension and working on your behalf. let it rise up to 65F and hold for 48 hours anyway. if you still detect it, you can make a small 1 liter starter and when it krausens, pitch it in. us-05 works well for this.

it is still pretty cloudy with yeast and when i pulled a sample there was lots of yeast rafts on the surface..Hopefully that will be enough for the D rest..good to know i can pitch a active starter if all else fails..thanks alot Wort Hog..you da man
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 02, 2014, 11:40:30 PM
what lager did you make? just curious.

couple lessons i learned that really helped with diacetyl: pitch lots of yeast-1 gal + starter. pitch at 45-46F, let it come up to 48-49F and hold it there for about 5 days of active fermentation. let temp rise 3-5 deg per 12 hours and when you get to 65F, let it go there for another 48hours. when i do this, all is well and clean as a whistle.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 02, 2014, 11:52:35 PM
I made a Boston lager style except i used munich lager yeast..I did a 2L starter decanted stepped up with another 2L and added a smack pack( it was getting old so i threw it in)..pitched cool at around 50 give or take a few degrees and lowered it to about 46 and let it rise to 48 and held it steady since oct 23..today i started to ramp the temp..It tasted very much like boston lager just had that slight buttery flavor a little bit of slickness..if i can get rid of the butter i think i have a winner..First time i messed with water chemistry aswell..I appreciate all your help.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 03, 2014, 12:01:09 AM
good-so next time try pitching at 46F vs at 50+ and lowering, then follow the schedule from there. its can be frustrating making lagers at first, but stick to it, keep good notes, and you'll be where you want to be in no time.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 03, 2014, 12:04:01 AM
good-so next time try pitching at 46F vs at 50+ and lowering, then follow the schedule from there. its can be frustrating making lagers at first, but stick to it, keep good notes, and you'll be where you want to be in no time.

+1. I pitch @ 46-47F and ferment @ 50F for most lagers.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 03, 2014, 12:09:36 AM
Yup pitching at 46 for now on..it was difficult getting the wort temp down..I gonna buy a small pump and recirculate ice water thru the chiller..With the  tap water i was only able to get it down to around 55 and that took awhile then i threw it in the chest freezer to drop it down more but i started to worry about it just sitting there without yeast so i pitched in the 50 degree neighborhood..Once i take care of this diacetyl either by raising the temp or active starter..im gonna lager this sucker for at least 2 months maybe more..im pretty confident it will be quaffable..cheers
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 03, 2014, 12:22:16 AM
One more question..This beer calls for a dry hopping i quess during the D rest is a good idea right? or should i make sure this diacetyl is sorted out first?
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 03, 2014, 12:30:35 AM
One more question..This beer calls for a dry hopping i quess during the D rest is a good idea right? or should i make sure this diacetyl is sorted out first?

Dry hopped beer is best fresh, so do your D rest, lager it, then dry hop @ room temp a week before packaging.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 03, 2014, 12:44:56 AM
One more question..This beer calls for a dry hopping i quess during the D rest is a good idea right? or should i make sure this diacetyl is sorted out first?

Dry hopped beer is best fresh, so do your D rest, lager it, then dry hop @ room temp a week before packaging.

Cool sounds like a plan..thanks bud
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 03, 2014, 12:47:00 AM
One more question..This beer calls for a dry hopping i quess during the D rest is a good idea right? or should i make sure this diacetyl is sorted out first?

Dry hopped beer is best fresh, so do your D rest, lager it, then dry hop @ room temp a week before packaging.

Cool sounds like a plan..thanks bud

Good luck ! Be sure to post how it comes out.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 03, 2014, 12:48:03 AM
Also, don't be overly concerned about letting the wort chill for a period in your lager freezer. If your sanitation is sound, that wort will be fine chilling to proper pitching temps.


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Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 03, 2014, 01:31:47 AM
Also, don't be overly concerned about letting the wort chill for a period in your lager freezer. If your sanitation is sound, that wort will be fine chilling to proper pitching temps.

Very good to know for my next lager run

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Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: theDarkSide on December 03, 2014, 02:21:25 PM
Also, don't be overly concerned about letting the wort chill for a period in your lager freezer. If your sanitation is sound, that wort will be fine chilling to proper pitching temps.


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I always let my lagers sit in the fermentation chamber overnight, then I transfer to another carboy, hit with O2, and pitch the yeast.  It's amazing how much break material settles in just 12-14 hours.  Pitch at 45F, free-rise to 50F then a D-Rest at 55-56F for a couple days.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 10, 2014, 02:42:45 AM
i just kegged and started the lagering process..was kinda strange,  it almost had a wine like character but finished malty/hoppy ..Anybody know what this wine flavor is? is very subtle but very annoying..im hoping the lagering will take care of it..Lager styles are tricky i am quickly realizing
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 10, 2014, 03:00:33 AM
i just kegged and started the lagering process..was kinda strange,  it almost had a wine like character but finished malty/hoppy ..Anybody know what this wine flavor is? is very subtle but very annoying..im hoping the lagering will take care of it..Lager styles are tricky i am quickly realizing

hmm. if by wine like you mean vinegar like, that can be acetobacter infection.

what kind of beer was it you made?
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: klickitat jim on December 10, 2014, 03:31:13 AM
I could see acetaldehyde giving an impression of wine-like if you're not familiar with it. Sherry like could be oxidized ingredients (grain) I suppose
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 10, 2014, 05:04:28 AM
I could see acetaldehyde giving an impression of wine-like if you're not familiar with it. Sherry like could be oxidized ingredients (grain) I suppose
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you know since you said that it made me notice im getting a apple note rather then wine..there is no sour vinegar presence at all..i just confused wine with apple some how..im getting sam adams with a splash of apple juice..gonna let her rip @ 33 for 2 months
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: klickitat jim on December 10, 2014, 06:16:02 AM
My guess, acetaldehyde. It might reduce in time, might not. If its still drinkable but just annoying,  maybe dry hop it to cover.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 10, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
+2 to acetaldehyde.
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: morticaixavier on December 10, 2014, 06:53:29 PM
if it's acetaldehyde you should be able to 'boil' it out. acetaldehyde boils at around 70*f so if you take a sample and warm it to 75 for a day you should no longer taste the apple, or at least it should be reduced.

You might also be able to deal with it by krausening the beer (pitching a large active starter into the beer).
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: AnimALE on December 11, 2014, 07:49:40 PM
if it's acetaldehyde you should be able to 'boil' it out. acetaldehyde boils at around 70*f so if you take a sample and warm it to 75 for a day you should no longer taste the apple, or at least it should be reduced.

You might also be able to deal with it by krausening the beer (pitching a large active starter into the beer).

Thats what im gonna do..Does the yeast choice matter for krausening? I have a pack of S-33 on hand will that work? Or go with a clean strain like us 05?
Title: Re: Timing a D rest
Post by: morticaixavier on December 11, 2014, 08:35:47 PM
if it's acetaldehyde you should be able to 'boil' it out. acetaldehyde boils at around 70*f so if you take a sample and warm it to 75 for a day you should no longer taste the apple, or at least it should be reduced.

You might also be able to deal with it by krausening the beer (pitching a large active starter into the beer).

Thats what im gonna do..Does the yeast choice matter for krausening? I have a pack of S-33 on hand will that work? Or go with a clean strain like us 05?

it shouldn't matter much but I would lean towards either the same yeast you used in primary or a neutral yeast. make a 1 or 2 liter starter and when it's cranking pitch into the apple batch.