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General Category => Zymurgy => Topic started by: Kaiser on April 30, 2010, 03:24:58 PM

Title: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on April 30, 2010, 03:24:58 PM
Though this is not my article the mashing schedule, which was outlined in the article, is something that I knew about for a few years now. So far I haven’t gotten around to trying it myself and thus haven’t written about it yet.

Unfortunately the author, Michael Elder, was only able to spend a few paragraphs on how that particular mash works.  So let me add a few points. It was first proposed by Markus Hermann in his Dissertation in 2005. The idea was to find a mashing schedule that can increase the ester production such that even the ester suppressing fermentation conditions of tall conicals can create ester dominated Weissbiers. As a result this mashing scheme is not really something that home brewers can benefit from since we don’t have a problem with ester suppression in our comparatively shallow fermenters. But it’s worth a try for the geek factor and I plan to do so in the near future.  It is also a practical mashing schedule where we actually mash down and then up again.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: denny on April 30, 2010, 03:46:06 PM
Not being a wheat beer fan, I skipped that article.  Sounds like I need to look it over for the technical info, though.
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on April 30, 2010, 03:53:05 PM
Not being a wheat beer fan, I skipped that article.  Sounds like I need to look it over for the technical info, though.

I knew what it would be about after I read the title. As a result I read that article first.

I'm not a big fan of fruit beers which is why most of the other articles didn't have much of my interest :D

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: babalu87 on April 30, 2010, 04:16:24 PM
I might geek out on it Saturday
Brewing a Hefeweizen

Denny, between the fruit beers and wheat beers did you just throw that one in the recycle bin  ;D
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: denny on April 30, 2010, 04:37:36 PM
Denny, between the fruit beers and wheat beers did you just throw that one in the recycle bin  ;D

Well, I have to admit there weren't as many "must read" articles as I usually find!  But Kai's post just goes to show that by assuming I wasn't interested, I may have missed out on some technical info that might be useful in other situations.  Damn my prejudices!  :)
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on April 30, 2010, 04:47:03 PM
Well, I have to admit there weren't as many "must read" articles as I usually find!  But Kai's post just goes to show that by assuming I wasn't interested, I may have missed out on some technical info that might be useful in other situations.  Damn my prejudices!  :)

That's why I started this thread. Others may have skipped it as well assuming that it was just another Weissbier article.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: bluesman on April 30, 2010, 05:06:32 PM
Thanks for pointing this out Kai. I haven't even started reading this issue yet but will definitely read the article now.
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: pjj2ba on May 03, 2010, 02:07:38 AM
Not just for wheat beers!  I can see this having applications in some Belgian styles.  Could one mash this way and get more esters while fermenting at a slightly lower temperature?  This would help to limit fusel alcohol production in bigger beers, while still promoting ester formation

I've always wondered if this is another benefit from Belgian styles using sugar, particularly glucose.  The extra glucose not only helps the beer dry out, but can also promote ester formation
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on May 03, 2010, 04:56:35 PM
I've always wondered if this is another benefit from Belgian styles using sugar, particularly glucose.  The extra glucose not only helps the beer dry out, but can also promote ester formation

I don't think that the glucode produced with this mashing schedule will dry out the beer the same way added corn sugar does. The corn sugar addition dilutes the nitrogen in the wort while the Hermann mash does not.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: pjj2ba on May 04, 2010, 04:08:04 AM
My comment is actually more about Belgian beers.  I definitely wouldn't want to dry a wheat beer out!  The point I'm intrigued with the fact that the mantra about adding sugar is that it results in a drier beer.  BUT, if you are using glucose in you Belgian beers, you are also promoting ester formation, which no one seems to ever talk about.

I'll be brewing a wheat beer in the next month.  I think I'll give the Hermann mash a try.
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: uthristy on May 12, 2010, 02:49:53 PM
BUT, if you are using glucose in you Belgian beers, you are also promoting ester formation, which no one seems to ever talk about.

Its more than just glucose sugar>

A Belgian supplier of sugar(s)

BELGOSUC SUGAR SPECIALITIES
http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/productgamma.asp
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: pjj2ba on May 17, 2010, 02:37:02 AM
BUT, if you are using glucose in you Belgian beers, you are also promoting ester formation, which no one seems to ever talk about.

Its more than just glucose sugar>

A Belgian supplier of sugar(s)

BELGOSUC SUGAR SPECIALITIES
http://www.belgosuc.be/EN/productgamma.asp

Which suggests even more that the Belgians appreciate the differences that different sugars give to the finished product, beyond resulting in a beer with a dry finish
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on May 27, 2010, 02:44:57 PM
I brewed a Weissbier using said maltase- or Hermann mash last night. I started at 5:30p and was able to pitch at 12:00a. The mash was not too difficult but the biggest pain was heating from 45C to 70C which I did with direct heat and which therefore required me to stir it for 25 min. But I expected that.

We'll see how this batch compares to the same recipe w/ a normal mash.

I did also notice that it took more acid to lower the pH of the mash to 5.5-5.6 at the end. This was actually expected since low temperature rests are known to increase the buffer capacity of the mash.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on May 31, 2010, 01:13:46 AM
It looks like this did not work for me to give me more banana aroma. I took a sample today and detect very little banana aroma compared to the control. The beer has more clove though. This is expected since the rest at 45C is also a good ferulic acid rest temp.

It might be necessary to use a more estery Weissbier yeast. I used WY3068 which is more on the phenolic side.

So I checked the dissertation which proposed this mash and found that they also used WY3068 (a.k.a. W68) but their pitching rate (~2 M/ml) was much lower than mine (~4 M/ml). In fact mine may have been even higher. I got an inexplicable discrepancy between the number of cells counted in the well mixed starter and the cells counted in the well mixed beer.

But I have read reports of this mash working as intended.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: tom on May 31, 2010, 02:34:01 PM
Thanks Kai.
Is 2M cells/mL the standard weissbier pitching rate?
How much do they oxygenate?
TIA, Tom
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: babalu87 on June 01, 2010, 10:31:27 PM
Kai, when I follow "proper" pitching rates on Hefe/Dunkelweizens with 3068 I've been disappointed.
I under pitch by a little and try not to go more than 3 generations either.

Brewing a Hefe this weekend and I'll use that mash and my pitching procedures to see what I get.
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on June 02, 2010, 02:49:28 AM
Thanks Kai.
Is 2M cells/mL the standard weissbier pitching rate?
How much do they oxygenate?

The only numbers I found were 2-4 M/ml (Kunze) or 0.3 -1 l yeast slurry per 100l wort. This slurry must be much thinner than the yeast slurry for lagers which is reported to give ~15 M/ml if about 0.5 l are added to 100l wort.

I assume that it is common to aerate to saturation with air which gives you about 8 ppm O2.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: dean on June 04, 2010, 07:47:45 PM
I don't recall getting a May/June issue... what is on the cover?  Aaarghh!  Now I have to go dig through my mags....  :D
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: dean on June 04, 2010, 07:49:17 PM
Yup... got it.   :)
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: babalu87 on June 05, 2010, 03:14:27 PM
It looks like this did not work for me to give me more banana aroma. I took a sample today and detect very little banana aroma compared to the control. The beer has more clove though. This is expected since the rest at 45C is also a good ferulic acid rest temp.

It might be necessary to use a more estery Weissbier yeast. I used WY3068 which is more on the phenolic side.

So I checked the dissertation which proposed this mash and found that they also used WY3068 (a.k.a. W68) but their pitching rate (~2 M/ml) was much lower than mine (~4 M/ml). In fact mine may have been even higher. I got an inexplicable discrepancy between the number of cells counted in the well mixed starter and the cells counted in the well mixed beer.

But I have read reports of this mash working as intended.

Kai

Kai, I'll be brewing this Sunday and will follow the mash until the last rest but will then do a decoction boil to get to mash out

I'll update as the beer progresses
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: bperetto on June 08, 2010, 03:05:35 PM
FYI, I also followed the suggested "complicated" mash and got very little banana aroma and virtually no banana flavor.

Otherwise, it's the same grains, yeast, etc... I use with a single infusion mash where I get a lot of banana.  Something in that article just doesn't work.  I just checked the C to F figures in the article and they seem fine. I'm not sure what happened but I have something closer to an american wheat beer than a bavarian hefeweizen- even with 3086.
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: babalu87 on June 09, 2010, 12:51:39 PM
Holy banana Batman  :o

I'll pull a sample in the next day or two but there is a nice banana nose on this beer right now

Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: pjj2ba on June 11, 2010, 04:26:39 AM
I did the complicated mash too, but am using an American yeast (Safale 05).  I've gotten cloves out of this strain before.  I'm curious to see if I can get any banana (@ 65 F).  I actually "fast fermented" 2 gal of this (keg kicked already) and was surprised at how wheaty it tasted.  I'm curious to compare it to the conventional remaining 5 gal.

I'll be serving this up at our pig roast in two weeks.  If I do get banana, I'll post.  If not, no post.
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: babalu87 on June 21, 2010, 03:15:20 PM
Banana!........ pretty intense too.

This was a split batch, one fermented in a bucket with the lid loose and one in a carboy with a tin foil airlock.
I'll know better when they are carbed up but the samples tasted the same.

Once its carbed up I'll have to get you a bottle or few Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on June 21, 2010, 03:57:09 PM
Once its carbed up I'll have to get you a bottle or few Kai

I have to send you mine too. So far I did not notice much more banana.

And we need to compare notes.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on June 28, 2010, 02:15:51 AM
I compared the two beers a few days ago and I preferred the one made with the more complicated mash. It had more banana and clove yet was still well balanced. Since I don't like fermenting my Weissbiers warmer than 65F, I generally don't get as many fruity notes.

It does however seem that the longer mash thinned out the mouthfeel and hurt the head retention, which was to be expected. I may be able to fix that with CaraFoam or chit malt (if I can find that).

Next time I have to retry this side-by-side and use the maltase mash first. Weissbier aromas don't stay fresh all that long and the fact that the two beers were brewed ~2 weeks apart may also be the cause for the difference.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: mashweasel on July 15, 2010, 06:04:10 PM
Depending on whether I want more banana or more clove I change my mash. You can also monkey with the yeast count and oxygen number, more of each giving less character. Low temps = more fruit, high temps = more spice.

Diauxic mash (Banana)
Mash in at 5:1
1. 86F, rest 30 min
2. Draw off 75% thin mash into boil kettle
- heat thick mash to 65C, rest 30 min
- add back
3. 104F, rest 30min (maltase)
4. 162F, 30min
5. 176F, 10min


'Schneider' mash (spice)
1. 112F x 8 min (4VG)
2. 128F x 20min
3. 144F x 15
- decoction pull, boil 10min
4. 156F x 20
5. 176 x 10min

A way to 'cheat' to get more banana is to add about 10% pure glucose directly to your fermenter. Do it side by side with one without it. Use the dry Munich strain or 3068 and you'll see for  yourself.
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: Kaiser on July 17, 2010, 12:35:07 AM
. Low temps = more fruit, high temps = more spice.

the way you mention this is interesting since most brewers report ( or maybe repeat) the opposite.

Kai
Title: Re: 2010 May/June - Brewing Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Post by: mashweasel on July 20, 2010, 01:23:06 PM
I've never seen brewers report the opposite although I don't say it doesn't happen. Cooler temperatures favor ester formation = fruit. Higher temps favor higher alcohol and phenol production. Thats a general statement but holds true. Yeast strain will usually have a bigger impact and the temps should be treated as relative according to the specific strain. Mean 'fruitier' than or 'spicer' than...