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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: blatz on December 24, 2014, 06:03:24 PM

Title: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: blatz on December 24, 2014, 06:03:24 PM
I've used this yeast several times in the past and probably a half dozen times in the past year.  For whatever reason, recently I cannot get more than 71% attenuation with it.

I did a double IPA last summer, and the lack of attenuation ruined it - finished way too sweet and I wound up dumping it. 

Most recently, on an ESB which stopped at 1.016 - this one tastes fantastic, so that is not a problem, but I was expecting much higher attenuation.  I am a little gun-shy to use the slurry from the ESB as planned - re-doing the double IPA above. 

Not sure what the culprit - pH for all beers was in proper range 5.3-4, water profile obviously on target.  I fermented starting at 66, raising to 68 after 4 days for the double and 3 for the ESB. 

Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: S. cerevisiae on December 24, 2014, 06:12:53 PM
That's really odd because Whitbread "B" is almost foolproof.   Have you made any major changes to your process? 
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: brewinhard on December 24, 2014, 06:15:39 PM
If you are concerned, would you consider decreasing your mash temp a bit for your next double IPA to hit a more appropriate FG?
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 24, 2014, 06:17:06 PM
so my experience with 007 has always been a real strong beast done in 3 days and 80+efficiency. always finishes dry and drops very clear in the carboy. I cant see anything you've listed as a problem. i always make a starter, hit for 60 seconds of o2 from red canister. must watch the temp -IME within 48hours i'd get the temp up high 60's -it will start to floc much earlier than most english strains ive used and that could cause attenuation issues.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: blatz on December 24, 2014, 06:23:41 PM
That's really odd because Whitbread "B" is almost foolproof.   Have you made any major changes to your process?

No - I am very methodical and consistent.  2 stage starter which should have given me about 15% more yeast than needed.

I made a batch of ipa the previous day before the ESB  on the 12th and that attentuated my normal 80%

I'm very perplexed - it's always this strain.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: S. cerevisiae on December 24, 2014, 07:19:41 PM
I would review my recipes and notes to see if there are any connections between the batches that do not attenuate well.  I have encountered oddities over the years, some of which disappeared with no apparent change in process.  I keep a paper log book for this very reason. 
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 24, 2014, 07:55:11 PM
I've never used 007, but I've used WY1098 Dry Whitbread many times and it's always been a beast for me. I use it in an Arrogant Bastard-type clone and it's pretty reliable. Last time it took 1.068 down to 1.009 and that's been the case regularly.

EDIT - I will add that the AB recipe uses a fair amount of Special B, so I mash at ~ 149F for 90 minutes to keep from finishing too high.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: majorvices on December 24, 2014, 09:04:04 PM
Paul, that is odd. Are you using a new pitch from WL? Once I had WLP007 mutate into some crazy super strain that dried everything out to a hot mess. I should have saved that. But the resulting beer just wasn't that great.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: blatz on December 24, 2014, 09:25:15 PM
I misspoke before, the IIPA went from 1.093 to 1.024 so 74%, but that also included 5% dextrose in the grist.

both pitches were brand new, first gen batches  - both used 2 vials in 2 stage starters - the IIPA i went up to 5L on the second stage.  i don't buy vials over a month old, either.

mashed the IIPA (91% 2row, 4% c15, 5% dextrose) at 147df.  my brewhouse uses RTDs, but I also double check at mash in with a thermocouple probe reader, and while i hit too low at mash in, it quickly got up to 147 and I hold well.

the ESB (89% MO, 7% eng med crystal, 4% golden naked oats) I mashed at 152-3 for a full hour. pH measured at 5.35.

Keep in mind, I have no problems with ANY other yeast I use - 001/US-05, 1450, 830, 833, which all give me results I expect. 

I am curious if I am either pitching too cold (high 50s, letting it rise to ferm temp of 65-66).  or if 65-66 is too cold, and I should be either fermenting warmer, raising to 68 quicker or both?  puzzling because as Mark said, its purportedly fool proof.

Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 24, 2014, 10:03:04 PM
Fwiw, I pitch 1098 @ 62, hold @ 64 for around 72 hours then slowly ramp up to 72ish. I wonder if this is one where there are more differences between the strains than in others, like 002/1968 and 001/1056 for example.


EDIT - I go this cool for the AB beer to keep fruitiness to a hint, not in-your-face estery.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 24, 2014, 10:13:45 PM
Fwiw, I pitch 1098 @ 62, hold @ 64 for around 72 hours then slowly ramp up to 72ish. I wonder if this is one where there are more differences between the strains than in others, like 002/1968 and 001/1056 for example.

thats what i mentioned in earlier post and seems most likely out of everything- it works quick and starts to floc just as quick, especially if temps are lower. its easy to to miss this if you treat it like other yeast, and wait to ramp up temps later in ferm cycle.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: S. cerevisiae on December 24, 2014, 10:21:59 PM
I never pitch British ale yeast strains in the fifties.  I usually pitch in the low to mid sixties.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 24, 2014, 10:23:54 PM
Fwiw, I pitch 1098 @ 62, hold @ 64 for around 72 hours then slowly ramp up to 72ish. I wonder if this is one where there are more differences between the strains than in others, like 002/1968 and 001/1056 for example.

thats what i mentioned in earlier post and seems most likely out of everything- it works quick and starts to floc just as quick, especially if temps are lower. its easy to to miss this if you treat it like other yeast, and wait to ramp up temps later in ferm cycle.

Yeah, I hear you. It's easy to have a flocculent strain drop out early if you don't ramp, but I was more curious about whether 007 might tend to do that a little easier, only having used 1098. I've found 1098 pretty easy to use.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 24, 2014, 10:26:22 PM

Fwiw, I pitch 1098 @ 62, hold @ 64 for around 72 hours then slowly ramp up to 72ish. I wonder if this is one where there are more differences between the strains than in others, like 002/1968 and 001/1056 for example.

thats what i mentioned in earlier post and seems most likely out of everything- it works quick and starts to floc just as quick, especially if temps are lower. its easy to to miss this if you treat it like other yeast, and wait to ramp up temps later in ferm cycle.

Yeah, I hear you. It's easy to have a flocculent strain drop out early if you don't ramp, but I was more curious about whether 007 might tend to do that a little easier, only having used 1098. I've found 1098 pretty easy to use.

Yeah that's why I chimed in- I agree what you are saying and  IME 007 does do this more as compared to 02,05.


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Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 24, 2014, 10:27:47 PM

Fwiw, I pitch 1098 @ 62, hold @ 64 for around 72 hours then slowly ramp up to 72ish. I wonder if this is one where there are more differences between the strains than in others, like 002/1968 and 001/1056 for example.

thats what i mentioned in earlier post and seems most likely out of everything- it works quick and starts to floc just as quick, especially if temps are lower. its easy to to miss this if you treat it like other yeast, and wait to ramp up temps later in ferm cycle.

Yeah, I hear you. It's easy to have a flocculent strain drop out early if you don't ramp, but I was more curious about whether 007 might tend to do that a little easier, only having used 1098. I've found 1098 pretty easy to use.

Yeah that's why I chimed in- I agree what you are saying and  IME 007 does do this more as compared to 02,05.


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Ok gotcha, cool !
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on December 24, 2014, 10:32:42 PM
It's all relative to OG as fars as speed for 007. When I have OG 1.060ish it's usually somewhere around 48hrs when I start bringing temps up as I'm already at around 1.016-.020. Starting at 1.070 or higher might be an extra 24 hours or so before you get below 1.020, but it's still going to move very quickly.

I'd give it another shot with this process and see how it goes.


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Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: troybinso on December 25, 2014, 01:14:30 AM
Near the end of most British and American ale yeast strain fermentations I shoot for about 72 degrees F at the very end of fermentation. If you can get it to creep up there slowly from about 64 degrees you can be pretty certain that you won't have a premature flocculation and an incomplete fermentation. You shouldn't have any problems with off flavors if you keep the first bit of fermenation in the mid sixties.

By the way, I hear some of the big pharma companies are working on a pill for premature flocculation - and you can expect to see the commercials for it during most breaks of football games.  ;)
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: blatz on January 16, 2015, 02:59:34 PM
forgot to post this earlier this week.  so i dryhopped in the primary at 70df (not my current protocol, but for this ESB i went with it).  noticed some faint airlock activity about 1-2 days in to the dryhop period (1 bubble every 40 seconds or so).  checked the gravity about 2 days before I planned to keg and it was 1.013, and checked prior to kegging and it was 1.013 again, so somehow activity either kicked back up or I picked up a bug while dryhopping. 

hoping for the former - and if so, I wound up getting the high 70s attenuation i expected.

its been chilling and carbing all week - hopefully i can steal a sample out of the keg over the weekend (it won't go on tap for a few weeks) and determine if it turned out all right, which based on the hydro sample i beleive it did.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: klickitat jim on January 16, 2015, 03:08:42 PM
forgot to post this earlier this week.  so i dryhopped in the primary at 70df (not my current protocol, but for this ESB i went with it).  noticed some faint airlock activity about 1-2 days in to the dryhop period (1 bubble every 40 seconds or so).  checked the gravity about 2 days before I planned to keg and it was 1.013, and checked prior to kegging and it was 1.013 again, so somehow activity either kicked back up or I picked up a bug while dryhopping. 

hoping for the former - and if so, I wound up getting the high 70s attenuation i expected.

its been chilling and carbing all week - hopefully i can steal a sample out of the keg over the weekend (it won't go on tap for a few weeks) and determine if it turned out all right, which based on the hydro sample i beleive it did.
Bubbles just mean CO2 is coming out of the airlock. Probably the hops caused CO2 to come out of solution, given that your at terminal gravity.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 16, 2015, 03:11:52 PM
I always heard it's a small amount of O2 pressed into the pellets that gets released when you dry hop.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: blatz on January 16, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
this isn't my first rodeo.  ;)

if you look back, it appeared that prior to dryhopping, that the gravity stopped at 1.016 based on two readings. 

after dryhop it lowered to 1.013, also based on 2 readings.

could be totally unrelated to dryhop or not.  i dunno.
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 16, 2015, 03:19:01 PM
this isn't my first rodeo.  ;)

if you look back, it appeared that prior to dryhopping, that the gravity stopped at 1.016 based on two readings. 

after dryhop it lowered to 1.013, also based on 2 readings.

could be totally unrelated to dryhop or not.  i dunno.

looks like you just squeezed out a few more points. did you just raise the temps or did you also rouse the yeast?
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 16, 2015, 03:23:18 PM
this isn't my first rodeo.  ;)

if you look back, it appeared that prior to dryhopping, that the gravity stopped at 1.016 based on two readings. 

after dryhop it lowered to 1.013, also based on 2 readings.

could be totally unrelated to dryhop or not.  i dunno.

Didn't read all the way back, Paul. I thought it had been @ 1.013  for awhile.  I was pretty sure you weren't a noob.    :D
Title: Re: 007 Dry English Ale
Post by: blatz on January 16, 2015, 03:24:59 PM
this isn't my first rodeo.  ;)

if you look back, it appeared that prior to dryhopping, that the gravity stopped at 1.016 based on two readings. 

after dryhop it lowered to 1.013, also based on 2 readings.

could be totally unrelated to dryhop or not.  i dunno.

looks like you just squeezed out a few more points. did you just raise the temps or did you also rouse the yeast?

Just let it sit at the temp (70df) that I raised to at the end of fermentation - sat for 2 weeks after apparent primary activity subsided.  maybe the slow kids finally finished up while it was dryhopping.    i wasn't able to rouse (conical) - need to put together an apparatus like majorvices has to blow co2 in the cone to rouse yeast sometime.