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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: goschman on December 31, 2014, 07:59:42 PM

Title: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: goschman on December 31, 2014, 07:59:42 PM
Just pitched 34/70 into 1.056 wort at 59F. I am thinking about keeping it around 60F until fermentation takes off then bringing it down to 55F or so. Does this sound about right? In a couple of weeks do a diacetyl rest around 65 before lagering?

How much lag time should I expect? I was thinking 24-36 hours.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: denny on December 31, 2014, 08:13:18 PM
Reduce the temp now.  A faster start isn't worth the off flavors created by starting warm.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: Jimmy K on December 31, 2014, 08:16:26 PM
From what I understand, most yeast flavors are produced during the growth phase. So waiting to cool will be too late.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: goschman on December 31, 2014, 08:21:18 PM
Thanks. What temp should I bring it down to? Apparently it can run at 45f though I doubt I can get it that low. It is currently in a 55F water bath so I will get some frozen water bottles in. How much lag should I expect?

EDIT: Found this from the website: "9-22°C (48.2-71.6°F) ideally 12-15°C (53.6-59°F)" so I am not too worried. Gonna try to get it down a couple of degrees...
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: goschman on December 31, 2014, 10:07:06 PM
Found another thread with the 18 day fermentation schedule with 24 days of lagering. I will try to follow this the best that I can. Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: klickitat jim on December 31, 2014, 11:01:25 PM
The best schedule is determined by your yeast under your conditions. Always go by gravity rather than calendar.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: HoosierBrew on December 31, 2014, 11:20:23 PM
The best schedule is determined by your yeast under your conditions. Always go by gravity rather than calendar.


Yep
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: goschman on December 31, 2014, 11:24:34 PM
The best schedule is determined by your yeast under your conditions. Always go by gravity rather than calendar.

That is kind of a given. I should have said I will try to stick to that schedule depending on my gravity.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: klickitat jim on January 01, 2015, 12:34:17 AM
The best schedule is determined by your yeast under your conditions. Always go by gravity rather than calendar.

That is kind of a given. I should have said I will try to stick to that schedule depending on my gravity.
Sweet.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: quattlebaum on January 01, 2015, 04:06:57 AM
I use this yeast a lot. I pitch cold 48 to 50F and let free rise to 54 till finished. just pitched a 3 gal batch of 1.050 and it finished in 9 days. Great yeast but does not like below 50. Takes up to 48 hrs to really see "signs" of fermentation mostly.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: majorvices on January 01, 2015, 03:02:49 PM
As Denny pointed out, you will not get lager-like flavors by starting fermentation out warm. During the first 72 hours is when the yeast make most of the fermentation characteristics that will be the flavor of the beer. If your fermenting warm, you won't get the flavor characteristics you are looking for in a lager. It may not make a bad beer, but if your going to create ale-like esters in your lager, why not just stick with ale yeasts? That doesn't make much sense, now, does it?

For my lager schedule I start out at 48 before I pitch yeast. Aerate twice as long as ales (I prefer pure o2) pitch twice as much yeast, and let fermentation kick into high krausen at those cold temps. After about 72-96 hours you might decide to bump the temp up 2 degrees, and continue doing so every 24 hours until you get up to 56-58 degrees and let the fermentation slowly finish up. When signs of fermentation seriously start to slow down you could even let the temp raise to 60-62 to really let the beer finish cleaning itself up. Wait a few days around the 58-62 degree mark after fermentation has mostly stopped, then you can crash down to 32-34 degrees and lager for at least 1-2 weeks.

For low gravity lagers, you really only need a couple of weeks lagering time as long as you had a healthy fermentation, pitched at proper temps and got a good d-rest, etc.

Higher gravity you may want 4-6 weeks lagering.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 01, 2015, 05:33:48 PM
As Denny pointed out, you will not get lager-like flavors by starting fermentation out warm. During the first 72 hours is when the yeast make most of the fermentation characteristics that will be the flavor of the beer. If your fermenting warm, you won't get the flavor characteristics you are looking for in a lager. It may not make a bad beer, but if your going to create ale-like esters in your lager, why not just stick with ale yeasts? That doesn't make much sense, now, does it?

For my lager schedule I start out at 48 before I pitch yeast. Aerate twice as long as ales (I prefer pure o2) pitch twice as much yeast, and let fermentation kick into high krausen at those cold temps. After about 72-96 hours you might decide to bump the temp up 2 degrees, and continue doing so every 24 hours until you get up to 56-58 degrees and let the fermentation slowly finish up. When signs of fermentation seriously start to slow down you could even let the temp raise to 60-62 to really let the beer finish cleaning itself up. Wait a few days around the 58-62 degree mark after fermentation has mostly stopped, then you can crash down to 32-34 degrees and lager for at least 1-2 weeks.

For low gravity lagers, you really only need a couple of weeks lagering time as long as you had a healthy fermentation, pitched at proper temps and got a good d-rest, etc.

Higher gravity you may want 4-6 weeks lagering.

This is close to what I do. Lagering at -1C is something I did for all of my lagers last year.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: majorvices on January 01, 2015, 05:37:20 PM
Yeah, I should say as cold as you can without freezing the beer. For me about 33 is as cold as I can get my conicals and BBTs. On the 12 gallon size batches I do that in a walk-in and it only gets down to about 38.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: goschman on January 01, 2015, 08:00:14 PM
I am seeing airlock activity within 24 hours which surprises me. It is currently at 52F. Maybe I shouldn't trust Fermentis but they say 53.6F - 59F is ideal for this strain. I am not worried that the temp dropped from pitching temp of 59 to 52 overnight. I am confident it will be a good beer.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: majorvices on January 01, 2015, 08:40:56 PM
I am seeing airlock activity within 24 hours which surprises me. It is currently at 52F. Maybe I shouldn't trust Fermentis but they say 53.6F - 59F is ideal for this strain. I am not worried that the temp dropped from pitching temp of 59 to 52 overnight. I am confident it will be a good beer.

My post was just meant as a guideline. You probably didn't do any serious harm by pitching warm but understand that it is not ideal. Ideally you should cool all the way to fermentation temps before pitching.

Some of the dry strains do require a warmer ferment. The only dry strain I use any more is S-189 which can handle the colder temps. 52 is probably about right for that strain.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: goschman on January 01, 2015, 08:45:17 PM
Yeah I just have a lot to learn. I didn't realize pitching at 59 was too warm. I thought it might help it take off quicker and didn't realize it would do more harm than good.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: tommymorris on January 01, 2015, 09:53:28 PM
I learned this the hardway. There is a lot of misinformation on the internet. I got diacetyl the first few lagers I made. If you get diacetyl try krausening as fix. It works.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: jeffy on January 01, 2015, 09:54:57 PM
A friend in my club makes award winning lagers by starting fermentation at warmer temperatures before dropping to what normally people think of as lager fermentation temps. 
I've had his beers and they show no signs of esters.
I don't like to do this, but I can't really argue with his success.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 01, 2015, 11:34:24 PM
A friend in my club makes award winning lagers by starting fermentation at warmer temperatures before dropping to what normally people think of as lager fermentation temps. 
I've had his beers and they show no signs of esters.
I don't like to do this, but I can't really argue with his success.

Yeah that seems counterintuitive to do that. I've tried a beer fermented like that and it was clean. The guy used 2124 which is pretty clean obviously. But I wouldn't do it myself either.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: JT on January 02, 2015, 03:25:42 AM
I think the only real advantage would be faster fermentation start = less time time for wild yeast to take hold.  I know some of the big yeast brands recommend this method, but I personally don't do it either. 
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: klickitat jim on January 02, 2015, 11:37:07 AM
I think the only real advantage would be faster fermentation start = less time time for wild yeast to take hold.  I know some of the big yeast brands recommend this method, but I personally don't do it either.
Thats my guess but (at the risk of sounding snotty) I don't follow the thought process. I'm worried about wild yeast throwing an off flavor so I'll force my pitched yeast to throw off flavors...
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: majorvices on January 02, 2015, 11:48:06 AM
I think the only real advantage would be faster fermentation start = less time time for wild yeast to take hold.  I know some of the big yeast brands recommend this method, but I personally don't do it either.

Otoh cooler temps also inhibit wild yeast and other microbes. Not many beer spoiling microorganisms grow very fast at 48 degrees.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: majorvices on January 02, 2015, 11:49:31 AM
A friend in my club makes award winning lagers by starting fermentation at warmer temperatures before dropping to what normally people think of as lager fermentation temps. 
I've had his beers and they show no signs of esters.
I don't like to do this, but I can't really argue with his success.

Guess it can be done then. But I would always advice against it from my own personal experience.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: goschman on January 02, 2015, 02:43:27 PM
Day 3 and it is holding steady at 52F. Should I expect a sulfury smell because that has been absent? Once I decide to start bumping up the temp, I will move it from the water bath to ambient room temp and to an insulated fermentation chamber with space heater if needed. It will be hard to control but 2 degrees per day will be the goal. 

My buddy uses s23 quite a bit at ale temps then cold crashes and lagers. His most popular beer is made this way which is why I try not to worry too much. He does multiple things against convention but continues to make better beer than I...haha!

Due to equipment restrictions, I only have the ability to lager probably 3 months out of the year and it still isn't ideal. If this recipe turns out good I may just do it as a 'pseudo lager' during the warm months with US05, WY1007, or something that I can run around 60F.
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: rabeb25 on January 02, 2015, 03:10:20 PM
Also for future refernce pay attention to the recommended pitch rates of the yeast at certain temperatures.. They vary dramatically, referencing 34/70 specifically.

This famous yeast strain from Weihenstephan in Germany is used world-wide within the brewing industry. Saflager W-34/70 allows to brew beers
with a good balance of floral and fruity aromas and gives clean flavors and high drinkable beers.
fermentation
temperature
:
9-22°C (48.2-71.6°F) ideally 12-15°C (53.6-59°F)
dosage
instructions
:
80 to 120 g/hl for pitching at 12C – 15°C (53-59°F).
increase dosage for pitching below 12°C (53°F), up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9°C (48°F)


So for 5 gallons
100g/hl, pitching rate is 19 grams (56f)~ 2 packets
200g/hl, pitching rate is 37.85 (53f)~ 3.5 packets
300g/hl,pitching rate that is 56.78 grams (48f) ~ 5 packets
This is for a modest sub 1.050 beer.


 
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: rabeb25 on January 02, 2015, 03:13:01 PM
A friend in my club makes award winning lagers by starting fermentation at warmer temperatures before dropping to what normally people think of as lager fermentation temps. 
I've had his beers and they show no signs of esters.
I don't like to do this, but I can't really argue with his success.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/12/15/the-temp-at-which-we-pitch-exbeeriment-results/
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: erockrph on January 02, 2015, 06:31:27 PM
A friend in my club makes award winning lagers by starting fermentation at warmer temperatures before dropping to what normally people think of as lager fermentation temps. 
I've had his beers and they show no signs of esters.
I don't like to do this, but I can't really argue with his success.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/12/15/the-temp-at-which-we-pitch-exbeeriment-results/
Interesting experiment, but it was for an ale, where some esters are appropriate. I'd love to see the same experiment for a lager yeast pitched at 60F vs 45F
Title: Re: fermentation schedule for first lager.
Post by: majorvices on January 02, 2015, 07:40:55 PM
A friend in my club makes award winning lagers by starting fermentation at warmer temperatures before dropping to what normally people think of as lager fermentation temps. 
I've had his beers and they show no signs of esters.
I don't like to do this, but I can't really argue with his success.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/12/15/the-temp-at-which-we-pitch-exbeeriment-results/
Interesting experiment, but it was for an ale, where some esters are appropriate. I'd love to see the same experiment for a lager yeast pitched at 60F vs 45F

Yes, another experiment is in order. I believe it is also yeast dependent. I also believe warm temps are more a problem with fusels on ales, not esters.