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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: bboy9000 on January 19, 2015, 06:43:33 PM

Title: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: bboy9000 on January 19, 2015, 06:43:33 PM
I'm doing a 2.5G lambic test batch today and this will be my first attempt at a "wild" ale.  I have a starter from a bottle of Beersel Oude Kriek and Petrus Aged Pale dregs.  I'm debating whether to pitch for primary fermentation or use US-05 then pitch the dregs starter into secondary.  I'm leaning towards pitching the dregs starter without  saccharomyces into primary.  Please share your thoughts and advice.  Thanks.
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: brewinhard on January 19, 2015, 08:11:54 PM
My $02. on the BN. for ya'!
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: morticaixavier on January 19, 2015, 08:16:30 PM
there will be plenty of sach in the dregs too. go for it.
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on January 19, 2015, 08:36:06 PM
Both. Aerate and pitch the US-05 as normal. Pitch the bugs at the same time as the US-05.

Unless you've done a few starter steps, the starter and dregs won't be enough for a healthy, relatively fast-starting primary fermentation.

Also FYI: Petrus Aged Pale does not have viable brett/bacteria, per The Mad Fermentationist (I believe both the Aged Pale and Oud Bruin are pasteurized):
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

You might hedge your bets a bit by either adding the dregs of a few more sours or a commercial blend (Roselare, lambic blend, etc). You'll definitely get bretta from the Oud Kriek, but often the bacteria in dregs can be weak and take a long time to develop acidity. Working the dregs up in an aerobic environment (starter) usually KO's the pedio, and lacto is often fleeting/absent in lambic because of aged hops, low pH, and time.
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: bboy9000 on January 19, 2015, 10:54:46 PM
Both. Aerate and pitch the US-05 as normal. Pitch the bugs at the same time as the US-05.

Unless you've done a few starter steps, the starter and dregs won't be enough for a healthy, relatively fast-starting primary fermentation.

Also FYI: Petrus Aged Pale does not have viable brett/bacteria, per The Mad Fermentationist (I believe both the Aged Pale and Oud Bruin are pasteurized):
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

You might hedge your bets a bit by either adding the dregs of a few more sours or a commercial blend (Roselare, lambic blend, etc). You'll definitely get bretta from the Oud Kriek, but often the bacteria in dregs can be weak and take a long time to develop acidity. Working the dregs up in an aerobic environment (starter) usually KO's the pedio, and lacto is often fleeting/absent in lambic because of aged hops, low pH, and time.

Yep you're right, nothing from the petrus.  The starter has been fed twice and definitely has bacteria and brett in it from what I can tell.  Right now I have 1.3L of of actively fermenting starter I want to pitch into the 2.5 G batch.  I mashed around 158 and have carapils as 7% of the bill to try to give the bugs and brett something to eat.  You still think I should pitch some US-05?
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on January 19, 2015, 10:59:49 PM
Nah - that's enough propagation for primary. Just the starter should be fine
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: bboy9000 on January 19, 2015, 11:04:10 PM
Thar's what I was hoping for.

As a side note, I have some extra wort I will put into a 1G jug and I want to pitch the dregs of the Jolly Pumpkin Bam Biere I just opened.  Do you think I should add some Saccharomyces to that?
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on January 20, 2015, 07:20:26 PM
Thar's what I was hoping for.

As a side note, I have some extra wort I will put into a 1G jug and I want to pitch the dregs of the Jolly Pumpkin Bam Biere I just opened.  Do you think I should add some Saccharomyces to that?

Nah - JP dregs are pretty hearty, and its only 1G
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: bboy9000 on January 21, 2015, 02:11:18 AM
Thar's what I was hoping for.

As a side note, I have some extra wort I will put into a 1G jug and I want to pitch the dregs of the Jolly Pumpkin Bam Biere I just opened.  Do you think I should add some Saccharomyces to that?

Nah - JP dregs are pretty hearty, and its only 1G


Edit:  Somehow my response didn't post so here it is:

Thanks for the input guys.  I pitched the starter made from the Oud Beersel Kriek and the Petrus Aged Pale.  1L of the starter went into 3G of wort and I had 300mL left over that I put into a sanitized mason jar that's chilling in the fridge.  I pitched around 5:00 PM yesterday and when I woke up at 6:00 AM there was active fermentation. 

I'm not sure which beer contributed the yeast/bugs as I found a list on Michael Tonsmeire's sire that listed Petrus Aged Pale as having both Brett and bugs:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

There are conflicting comments for each of the beers I used in the comment section below the list.

Regardless the beer is fermenting and this will be a fun exercise in homebrewing.

EDIT: I'm guessing the list I found on Tonsmeire's site is older than the one Kyle posted yesterday.  Also, I had 3G of wort not 3 liters.
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: ynotbrusum on January 21, 2015, 03:18:50 AM
Welcome to the sour side.  I have definitely enjoyed the artisanal aspect of this stuff.  But you gotta have patience!
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: homoeccentricus on January 21, 2015, 08:28:46 AM
Petrus Aged Pale IS filtered and pasteurized.
Title: Re: First attempt at sour please advise
Post by: bboy9000 on February 17, 2015, 02:29:32 AM
Update-  I racked my "sour" to secondary after a month.  I wanted to keep it on the cake but I had 3G in a 5G carboy so I didn't want all of that airspace.  I took a gravity reading and it went from 1.050 to 1.008.  I tasted like a Leffe Blond.  No sour or funk.  I know that takes time to develop but I wonder if the sacchcromyces in the Boon Kreik dregs took over. 

OTOH, I pitched Jolly Pumpkin dregs straight from the bottle into a half gallon of wort on the same day I brewed the sour.  I was going to take a sip only to find a pellicle has formed within the past week so I left it.