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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: flbrewer on January 22, 2015, 07:26:25 pm

Title: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 22, 2015, 07:26:25 pm
I pitched the yeast on my first all grain Sunday PM. Really good activity starting Monday PM and still quite strong. The biggest surprise has been the huge krausen that hasn't given way as of this evening.

Is it typical to have more vigorous fermentation w/ all-grain vs. extract? Perhaps it was my starter and the fact I pitched it when it had krausen on it?
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: erockrph on January 22, 2015, 10:32:16 pm
I pitched the yeast on my first all grain Sunday PM. Really good activity starting Monday PM and still quite strong. The biggest surprise has been the huge krausen that hasn't given way as of this evening.

Is it typical to have more vigorous fermentation w/ all-grain vs. extract? Perhaps it was my starter and the fact I pitched it when it had krausen on it?
If you changed a process with your starter, then I'd point to that as the most likely cause of the quicker start. But you may also get a bit extra yeast nutrient from the break material in an AG batch, so that may be contributing as well.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: majorvices on January 23, 2015, 04:21:48 am
There's definitely more nutrients in an AG wort than and extract wort. As I have mentioned several times in the past, extract is supposedly lacking in Free Amino Nitrogen. Also, as was mentioned, the break material has nutrients that are probably not present in extract.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: denny on January 23, 2015, 10:05:23 am
There's definitely more nutrients in an AG wort than and extract wort. As I have mentioned several times in the past, extract is supposedly lacking in Free Amino Nitrogen. Also, as was mentioned, the break material has nutrients that are probably not present in extract.

And AG will have more protein, which will increase krausen.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: majorvices on January 23, 2015, 10:59:03 am
There's definitely more nutrients in an AG wort than and extract wort. As I have mentioned several times in the past, extract is supposedly lacking in Free Amino Nitrogen. Also, as was mentioned, the break material has nutrients that are probably not present in extract.

And AG will have more protein, which will increase krausen.

Right, the break itself is protein. Should notice a much bigger break with AG as well.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: flbrewer on January 23, 2015, 12:17:46 pm
There's definitely more nutrients in an AG wort than and extract wort. As I have mentioned several times in the past, extract is supposedly lacking in Free Amino Nitrogen. Also, as was mentioned, the break material has nutrients that are probably not present in extract.

And AG will have more protein, which will increase krausen.

Right, the break itself is protein. Should notice a much bigger break with AG as well.

I did, forgot to mention...very large and long lasting break.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: flbrewer on January 23, 2015, 12:19:12 pm
As an aside, checked gravity today for the heck of it, and it's already down to 1.014 (1.012 is supposed to be FG) after 5 days.

Previously I assumed that the krausen and airlock activity correlated pretty close to gravity. In this case I am almost close to FG and yet it's still chugging away. Thoughts?
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: HoosierBrew on January 23, 2015, 12:37:39 pm
As an aside, checked gravity today for the heck of it, and it's already down to 1.014 (1.012 is supposed to be FG) after 5 days.

Previously I assumed that the krausen and airlock activity correlated pretty close to gravity. In this case I am almost close to FG and yet it's still chugging away. Thoughts?

Sounds like you've done a nice job. I remember my first AG and being blown away by the amount of hot break as compared to extract - all good and normal.  Remember that the 1.012 FG is a prediction - a lot of factors influence that number. You could stay at 1.014, hit 1.012 or even lower. It'll be good.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: beersk on January 23, 2015, 02:41:47 pm
There's definitely more nutrients in an AG wort than and extract wort. As I have mentioned several times in the past, extract is supposedly lacking in Free Amino Nitrogen. Also, as was mentioned, the break material has nutrients that are probably not present in extract.

And AG will have more protein, which will increase krausen.
Does amount of krausen foreshadow how your head retention in the beer will be? Is there a correlation there?
Could explain some of my head retention issues...my beer typically doesn't get a lot of krausen and I'm wondering what is affecting that. Comes down to water, I'm sure.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: flbrewer on January 24, 2015, 10:44:29 am
Just an update...6 days after pitching and I cannot believe the krausen on this! When will the madness end?
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: denny on January 24, 2015, 10:45:35 am
Does amount of krausen foreshadow how your head retention in the beer will be? Is there a correlation there?
Could explain some of my head retention issues...my beer typically doesn't get a lot of krausen and I'm wondering what is affecting that. Comes down to water, I'm sure.

If anything, though, it would be the opposite.  The theory is that there are foam positive substances in the beer and once they get used up, they aren't there for future foam production.  In that case, a large krausen would actually cut down on later foam production.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: beersk on January 24, 2015, 10:02:55 pm
Does amount of krausen foreshadow how your head retention in the beer will be? Is there a correlation there?
Could explain some of my head retention issues...my beer typically doesn't get a lot of krausen and I'm wondering what is affecting that. Comes down to water, I'm sure.

If anything, though, it would be the opposite.  The theory is that there are foam positive substances in the beer and once they get used up, they aren't there for future foam production.  In that case, a large krausen would actually cut down on later foam production.
Hmmm, interesting. Thanks for the response, Denny!
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: JT on January 25, 2015, 06:11:14 am
Just an update...6 days after pitching and I cannot believe the krausen on this! When will the madness end?
Sometimes it doesn't.   I've had stuck krausen on batches that just won't die.  Cold crashing may help.  Or gently stirring.  Or just rack out from underneath.  Make sure your gravity is stable first. 
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 25, 2015, 06:23:09 am
Just an update...6 days after pitching and I cannot believe the krausen on this! When will the madness end?
Some yeast strains form a krausen that is dense and sits on the top like a raft, not falling like others. That is why you check gravity and not krausen. You just rack the beer off from under the krausen.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: flbrewer on January 25, 2015, 08:13:12 am
Just an update...6 days after pitching and I cannot believe the krausen on this! When will the madness end?
Some yeast strains form a krausen that is dense and sits on the top like a raft, not falling like others. That is why you check gravity and not krausen. You just rack the beer off from under the krausen.

I think I may have this ^ situation. Checked gravity again today, moved slightly from a few days ago but certainly close to FG. Moved from 1.057 to 1.012 in a week. Still have the same exact huge float of krausen on top, airlock activity is very minor.
Title: Re: All Grain Fermentation vs. Extract
Post by: brewinhard on January 25, 2015, 01:03:26 pm
Just an update...6 days after pitching and I cannot believe the krausen on this! When will the madness end?
Some yeast strains form a krausen that is dense and sits on the top like a raft, not falling like others. That is why you check gravity and not krausen. You just rack the beer off from under the krausen.

Either way, be sure to let the beer sit for a minimum of 2 wks to finish fermenting and conditioning (cleaning up after itself). 

I think I may have this ^ situation. Checked gravity again today, moved slightly from a few days ago but certainly close to FG. Moved from 1.057 to 1.012 in a week. Still have the same exact huge float of krausen on top, airlock activity is very minor.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 10:05:43 am
justin- what yeast did you use...might have missed if you said somewhere.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: jtoots on January 26, 2015, 10:24:52 am
does anyone see a difference in krausen between liquid and dry yeast?  i typically use liquid, just used dry on my last batch, and was worried when i didn't need a blowoff tube (s05 in place of my typical cali ale yeast).  still hit FG, so i'm pumped, but wondering if this is typical.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Joe Sr. on January 26, 2015, 10:28:27 am
does anyone see a difference in krausen between liquid and dry yeast?  i typically use liquid, just used dry on my last batch, and was worried when i didn't need a blowoff tube (s05 in place of my typical cali ale yeast).  still hit FG, so i'm pumped, but wondering if this is typical.

The biggest difference I have noted is from fermentation temp.  Warmer temp = bigger krausen.  Lower temp = smaller krausen.  Same yeasts, same recipes.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 10:46:07 am

justin- what yeast did you use...might have missed if you said somewhere.
WLP001 as a starter.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 10:48:05 am
does anyone see a difference in krausen between liquid and dry yeast?  i typically use liquid, just used dry on my last batch, and was worried when i didn't need a blowoff tube (s05 in place of my typical cali ale yeast).  still hit FG, so i'm pumped, but wondering if this is typical.

i don't think dry vs liquid = krausen formation difference. with all things equal (like dry vs liquid strain) i think the amount of cells pitched, properly oxygenated wort, fermentation temp,  will produce different results in krausen and perhaps blow off. ive used dry and liquid yeast in like brews. with liquid hefe strain, ive had very active fermentation at 65F max temp, but no blow off. when i reached 68-70F temps, more krausen and blow off tube needed. also need to consider head space...less and you're more likely to need the blow off tube.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 10:50:21 am

justin- what yeast did you use...might have missed if you said somewhere.
WLP001 as a starter.

ok i think that's very similar to US-05, and Ive had krausen hand around much longer with that strain.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: denny on January 26, 2015, 12:24:23 pm
does anyone see a difference in krausen between liquid and dry yeast?  i typically use liquid, just used dry on my last batch, and was worried when i didn't need a blowoff tube (s05 in place of my typical cali ale yeast).  still hit FG, so i'm pumped, but wondering if this is typical.

It's usually a lot more dependent on yeast strain than liquid or dry.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 04:58:25 pm
A photo below. Still floating there like a piece of flotsam in the ocean. Based on the recent gravity reading and the the fact that the airlock activity is little to none I'm thinking it's ok to throw in the dry hops.

What is the consensus of the group?

(http://i.imgur.com/MkgufWW.jpg)
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 05:00:47 pm
Yes go forward


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Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: jeffy on January 26, 2015, 05:27:22 pm
Are you going to stir them in?  It may be a better idea to put the hops in a secondary and rack the beer from under that stuff.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 05:34:31 pm
Are you going to stir them in?  It may be a better idea to put the hops in a secondary and rack the beer from under that stuff.

I am not planning on secondary. If it's still there come this weekend I'll rack from below it (seen other posts around about this same issue).

Regarding the hops, I was just going to drop them in. I can make a small break in the krausen by stiring gently on top w. my Thermapen. I suppose I could dump them in the middle of the krausen.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: brewday on January 26, 2015, 05:41:25 pm
If you lower the temp by 10° or so it might just drop out.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 06:17:02 pm
If you lower the temp by 10° or so it might just drop out.

I'm not too worried...it'll either drop during cold crashing or I'll siphon from below it. I'm questioning dry hopping at this point.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 06:20:37 pm
If you at racking......rack, then dry hop.


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Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 06:27:31 pm
If you at racking......rack, then dry hop.


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Not racking!
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: brewday on January 26, 2015, 06:31:13 pm
If you lower the temp by 10° or so it might just drop out.

I'm not too worried...it'll either drop during cold crashing or I'll siphon from below it. I'm questioning dry hopping at this point.

If fermentation is complete then lowering the temp to the mid 50s or 60° will probably drop it, and take some suspended yeast with it.  That should make for better dry hopping conditions anyway.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 07:09:08 pm
What's the risk of throwing in the hops at this point? Tomorrow will be day 9 of fermentation and I'm following the recipe at this point by dry hopping on day 9.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: JT on January 26, 2015, 07:16:09 pm
Following someone else's timeline is a recipe for disappointment.  Is your gravity stable?  For how long has it been stable?  Is your beer clearing or still very hazy?
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 07:35:23 pm
Just break up the krausen as you mentioned and throw them in.  They will immerse in the beer and do their job.


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Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 07:37:59 pm
Just break up the krausen as you mentioned and throw them in.  They will immerse in the beer and do their job.


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Ken, if you mess this up, I'm shipping the entire bad batch to you  ;D
Title: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 07:39:07 pm
Just break up the krausen as you mentioned and throw them in.  They will immerse in the beer and do their job.


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Ken, if you mess this up, I'm shipping the entire bad batch to you  ;D

Bring it!   Seriously. I'd give the bucket a little swirl and sink my hops.


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Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: JT on January 26, 2015, 07:47:21 pm
I agree with Ken.  Just be cautious around following a timeline for beer fermentation, especially if bottling the beer.  You aren't baking a cake here, the beer will be done when the gravity is stable.  All that said, I rarely take a second reading.  If the beer is around where I think it should be after 2 - 3 weeks, I keg it.  But then by kegging I'm not risking a bottle exploding in my friend's hand either.  Patience, Jedi.
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 26, 2015, 07:50:45 pm
Whole leaf or pellet? Just give bucket a good swirl, drop the krausen and pitch the hops.


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Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: flbrewer on January 26, 2015, 08:10:32 pm

Whole leaf or pellet? Just give bucket a good swirl, drop the krausen and pitch the hops.


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pellet
Title: Re: Never Ending Krausen
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on January 27, 2015, 01:32:09 am

Whole leaf or pellet? Just give bucket a good swirl, drop the krausen and pitch the hops.


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pellet

so if gravity is stable, then go ahead and dry hop. once those hops get into the beer, they will break up and sink into beer (assuming no bag is used for dry hopping).