Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Iliff Ave on February 03, 2015, 03:35:21 pm

Title: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 03, 2015, 03:35:21 pm
From what I have read, you can make a great kolsch and a decent alt with WLP029. You can make a great alt with WLP036 but it is not appropriate for kolsch.

Does anyone here feel that this is the case? If I remember correctly, a lot here think that WLP029 should not be used for alts despite manufacturer recommendations. It is as cut and dry that 029 is for kolsch and 036 is for alt?
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Frankenbrew on February 03, 2015, 03:44:12 pm
I harvested some 029 from a kolsch and used it for an altbier. It came out good, and I liked it, but it was different from other alts I have brewed. It is very clean, so it really tastes more like a lager than an ale. That IMO is good. But it also mutes the hops a little, which in an alt, is not so good. So what the beer ended up like was a sort of Alt/Irish Red, the kind of Irish Red like Killian's or Murphy's that is fermented with lager yeast. The beer is good; it just doesn't seem like an alt, to me.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 03, 2015, 03:46:44 pm
Interesting. White Labs claims that 029 accentuates hop character and more so than 036.

My plan is similar to yours. I want to try 036 but have a kolsch going with 029 now and would like to just reuse some yeast...
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: dmtaylor on February 03, 2015, 03:48:41 pm
I think WLP029 would make an okay altbier, it is very clean.  However, it is so very bland and without character that personally I won't use it anymore at all.

I love love love the 1007!  I've got that on my first altbier in primary right now, and I can tell you I'm going to be using that yeast a lot more in the future.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 03, 2015, 03:51:07 pm
okay. Out of ease I will probably just reuse the 029 this go around and then next time try WLP036 or WY1007 for comparison.

What about using WLP036 or WY1007 for a kolsch? I ask because I normally like to do a run of 3 beers with the same yeast to avoid making too many starters and save costs. This is only when I am using liquid yeast which doesn't occur that often. My plan is to go from kolsch to alt to IPA with the WLP029
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: brewday on February 03, 2015, 04:03:35 pm
I've used both Wyeast 2565 and 1007 many times for altbiers, and I like each of them, but they are quite different.  I found the 2565 alts to be drier and hoppier, while 1007 comes off a little sweeter/creamier.  My slight preference is for 1007. 

Going in reverse (alt yeast in a kolsch) I think you'll miss out on some of the kolsch-specific flavor/aroma and may end up with something more like a blonde ale, but likely a delicious one.

Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Frankenbrew on February 03, 2015, 04:20:02 pm
okay. Out of ease I will probably just reuse the 029 this go around and then next time try WLP036 or WY1007 for comparison.

What about using WLP036 or WY1007 for a kolsch? I ask because I normally like to do a run of 3 beers with the same yeast to avoid making too many starters and save costs. This is only when I am using liquid yeast which doesn't occur that often. My plan is to go from kolsch to alt to IPA with the WLP029

I think the 029 is fine for a kolsch. In fact, I like it better than the Wy2565. It's cleaner.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 03, 2015, 04:47:39 pm
+1 to 1007. That is a great strain, and it's clean enough to use in other styles as well. But honestly, I'm a believer in 1007 for alt, 2565 for kolsch. I know the yeast makers sometimes list these types of yeast as substitutes for each other, but I don't get it. Kolsch yeast has that vinous, distinctive character - if it were used in an alt-type recipe it would seem like a 'malty amber kolsch' to me. On the other hand, you could use 1007 in a kolsch and it would be very clean and have no kolsch yeast character. Not saying either beer wouldn't be good, just not the real deal.

EDIT  -  OTOH I'm not always a style nazi, and I've made a lot of good beers that didn't fit any set of guidelines.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 03, 2015, 05:00:24 pm
Thanks for all of the feedback. It seems that WLP029 indeed might not be very suitable for an altbier. I will go ahead and brew it to see what I end up with. If nothing else, it will hopefully be good beer.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 03, 2015, 05:10:02 pm
Thanks for all of the feedback. It seems that WLP029 indeed might not be very suitable for an altbier. I will go ahead and brew it to see what I end up with. If nothing else, it will hopefully be good beer.

It will make a good beer regardless, man. I bet it goes fast !
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: coolman26 on February 04, 2015, 07:41:40 am
So everyone likes 2565 better than 029 for Kolsch?  I saw East Coast had a Kolsch yeast.  I brewing it next and was going to do an alt after,  Guess I'll get different yeast for it. 
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 04, 2015, 07:53:11 am
So everyone likes 2565 better than 029 for Kolsch?  I saw East Coast had a Kolsch yeast.  I brewing it next and was going to do an alt after,  Guess I'll get different yeast for it. 

Not necessarily - my LHBS carries Wyeast and always has it fresh, so I generally buy 2565. I do like 029 though.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 04, 2015, 07:53:51 am
So everyone likes 2565 better than 029 for Kolsch?  I saw East Coast had a Kolsch yeast.  I brewing it next and was going to do an alt after,  Guess I'll get different yeast for it.

I actually have not tried 2565 for a kolsch yet. WLP029 has worked great for me and provides what I look for in a kolsch plus it apparently drops clear easier. I normally prefer Wyeast for no particular reason so I will have to try 2565 at some point. 
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 04, 2015, 07:55:26 am
It's a bit of a tradeoff - 2565 is slower to clear, but has really good flavor.  I like both.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: braufessor on February 04, 2015, 08:36:20 am
I just kegged an alt brewed with 029....... It is about 3.5 weeks since brew day.  It is not completely carbed, is still a bit hazy (although, fairly clear) and will benefit from some cold conditioning.  However, I did drink a 10 ounce sampler a couple days ago and I was quite happy with it.  I thought the hops were fairly sharp, the malt came through nicely and it was nice and clean.  At worst it is going to be a very nice beer to drink.  I am cautiously optimistic it is going to be a really nice alt with a few weeks of lagering.

This is the first time I have ever used the yeast, so time will tell how it finishes out - but, so far, so good.

*I started fermenting at about 60-62 for the first couple days then moved it to 64-66 for the remainder of fermentation.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 04, 2015, 09:30:51 am
I just kegged an alt brewed with 029....... It is about 3.5 weeks since brew day.  It is not completely carbed, is still a bit hazy (although, fairly clear) and will benefit from some cold conditioning.  However, I did drink a 10 ounce sampler a couple days ago and I was quite happy with it.  I thought the hops were fairly sharp, the malt came through nicely and it was nice and clean.  At worst it is going to be a very nice beer to drink.  I am cautiously optimistic it is going to be a really nice alt with a few weeks of lagering.

This is the first time I have ever used the yeast, so time will tell how it finishes out - but, so far, so good.

*I started fermenting at about 60-62 for the first couple days then moved it to 64-66 for the remainder of fermentation.

I would like to know how it turns out. My kolsch was at 60F but was pretty sluggish to start. According to White Labs, it doesn't do well below 62F but I am sure others have not had that problem. I warmed it to 63 where it is now and it took off shortly after. The plan is not to let it rise above the mid 60s similar to you.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: denny on February 04, 2015, 09:43:08 am
From what I have read, you can make a great kolsch and a decent alt with WLP029. You can make a great alt with WLP036 but it is not appropriate for kolsch.

Does anyone here feel that this is the case? If I remember correctly, a lot here think that WLP029 should not be used for alts despite manufacturer recommendations. It is as cut and dry that 029 is for kolsch and 036 is for alt?

IMO, neither of those makes a good alt.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: denny on February 04, 2015, 09:44:29 am
So everyone likes 2565 better than 029 for Kolsch?

IMO, head and shoulders better.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 04, 2015, 09:45:52 am
From what I have read, you can make a great kolsch and a decent alt with WLP029. You can make a great alt with WLP036 but it is not appropriate for kolsch.

Does anyone here feel that this is the case? If I remember correctly, a lot here think that WLP029 should not be used for alts despite manufacturer recommendations. It is as cut and dry that 029 is for kolsch and 036 is for alt?

IMO, neither of those makes a good alt.

So WLP036 does not make a good alt?
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 04, 2015, 09:46:27 am
So everyone likes 2565 better than 029 for Kolsch?

IMO, head and shoulders better.

Wow. I really like 029 so 2565 must be absolutely amazing!
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: denny on February 04, 2015, 09:47:23 am
From what I have read, you can make a great kolsch and a decent alt with WLP029. You can make a great alt with WLP036 but it is not appropriate for kolsch.

Does anyone here feel that this is the case? If I remember correctly, a lot here think that WLP029 should not be used for alts despite manufacturer recommendations. It is as cut and dry that 029 is for kolsch and 036 is for alt?

IMO, neither of those makes a good alt.

So WLP036 does not make a good alt?

Not IMO.  If you want to stick with White you'd be better off with 001.  My favorite alt yeast is WY1007, closely followed by 1056.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 04, 2015, 10:03:04 am
From what I have read, you can make a great kolsch and a decent alt with WLP029. You can make a great alt with WLP036 but it is not appropriate for kolsch.

Does anyone here feel that this is the case? If I remember correctly, a lot here think that WLP029 should not be used for alts despite manufacturer recommendations. It is as cut and dry that 029 is for kolsch and 036 is for alt?

IMO, neither of those makes a good alt.

So WLP036 does not make a good alt?

Not IMO.  If you want to stick with White you'd be better off with 001.  My favorite alt yeast is WY1007, closely followed by 1056.

+1
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 04, 2015, 10:03:45 am
From what I have read, you can make a great kolsch and a decent alt with WLP029. You can make a great alt with WLP036 but it is not appropriate for kolsch.

Does anyone here feel that this is the case? If I remember correctly, a lot here think that WLP029 should not be used for alts despite manufacturer recommendations. It is as cut and dry that 029 is for kolsch and 036 is for alt?

IMO, neither of those makes a good alt.

So WLP036 does not make a good alt?

Not IMO.  If you want to stick with White you'd be better off with 001.  My favorite alt yeast is WY1007, closely followed by 1056.

I prefer Wyeast. Didn't know you could use an American yeast to make a german beer. Normally I catch flack for things like that. Good to know.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Rhoobarb on February 04, 2015, 10:28:54 am
I much prefer 029 for Kolsch. Used 2565 once and went back to 029. I've used 029 in a Northern German Alt and 036 in a Dusseldorf Alt  and was happy with both, but those beers were brewed several years ago.  It's been too long, so I plan to brew the Northern German Alt again this Summer and will give 1007 a shot.  People praise it a lot.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: denny on February 04, 2015, 10:34:54 am
I prefer Wyeast. Didn't know you could use an American yeast to make a german beer. Normally I catch flack for things like that. Good to know.

sure.  The yeast just needs to be very clean and attenuative.  1056 fits the bill.  You can also go the other way and make American styles with 1007.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 04, 2015, 11:15:05 am
I prefer Wyeast. Didn't know you could use an American yeast to make a german beer. Normally I catch flack for things like that. Good to know.

sure.  The yeast just needs to be very clean and attenuative.  1056 fits the bill.  You can also go the other way and make American styles with 1007.

Thanks. Yes I assumed I could do anything American with 1007 since most styles are a lot more broad as far as yeast is concerned.

I normally use dry yeast. Maybe I will give US05 a shot for an Alt when I get around to it. I am excited for K97 to come out in 11.5g packets which will probably permanently resolve my little conundrum. Now if I could just find a dry yeast appropriate for Kolsch I would be set...
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: AmandaK on February 04, 2015, 12:37:08 pm
I prefer Wyeast. Didn't know you could use an American yeast to make a german beer. Normally I catch flack for things like that. Good to know.

sure.  The yeast just needs to be very clean and attenuative.  1056 fits the bill.  You can also go the other way and make American styles with 1007.

So Denny, what's your altbier recipe?
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 04, 2015, 12:43:47 pm
You can also go the other way and make American styles with 1007.

+1.  1007 is super clean, and ferments well @ really cool temps. I've used it @ ~ 58F.  Really underrated.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: Frankenbrew on February 04, 2015, 05:56:59 pm
I much prefer 029 for Kolsch. Used 2565 once and went back to 029. I've used 029 in a Northern German Alt and 036 in a Dusseldorf Alt  and was happy with both, but those beers were brewed several years ago.  It's been too long, so I plan to brew the Northern German Alt again this Summer and will give 1007 a shot.  People praise it a lot.

I'm with you on the 029 for kolsch, though I was not happy at all with the alt I made with it. I made the choice to use it in the alt because I had it from a kolsch I had just brewed, and because the White Labs website said it works well in an alt. However, I beg to differ now that I've tried it myself. I have made many alts with WY1007, and they have always been outstanding. Now I know. Next alt will be fermented with 1007.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 04, 2015, 08:51:15 pm
So everyone likes 2565 better than 029 for Kolsch?

IMO, head and shoulders better.

Wyeast 2565 is W-165.  W-165 is a true alt strain.

http://www.hefebank-weihenstephan.de/strains.html
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: denny on February 05, 2015, 10:37:15 am
I prefer Wyeast. Didn't know you could use an American yeast to make a german beer. Normally I catch flack for things like that. Good to know.

sure.  The yeast just needs to be very clean and attenuative.  1056 fits the bill.  You can also go the other way and make American styles with 1007.

So Denny, what's your altbier recipe?

My favorite and the won I've won the most with is this one...http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/MilosAlt .  Named after a beloved, departed huge gray cat.  But it's not a real traditional alt due to the high amount of Munich.  I love it, but that's not how they do it.  My favorite German alt is Zum Uerige.  In "The New Brewer" a few years back, the brewmaster there relayed the recipe.  I posted it here....https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19049.msg242766#msg242766
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 08, 2015, 08:58:37 am
My favorite German alt is Zum Uerige.  In "The New Brewer" a few years back, the brewmaster there relayed the recipe.  I posted it here....https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19049.msg242766#msg242766

Denny, thanks for posting this recipe.  I have always wanted a peek into how this beer is made.   I have a yeast culture that I dug out of the UC Davis Culture Collection in 2013 that looks and behaves remarkably like the Zum Uerige strain (Wyeast 1007).  However, it was isolated at Carlsberg Laboratory from a mixed culture taken at Christian the IV's Brewhouse in Copenhagen, Denmark.   
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 08, 2015, 10:22:39 am
I prefer Wyeast. Didn't know you could use an American yeast to make a german beer. Normally I catch flack for things like that. Good to know.

sure.  The yeast just needs to be very clean and attenuative.  1056 fits the bill.  You can also go the other way and make American styles with 1007.

So Denny, what's your altbier recipe?

My favorite and the won I've won the most with is this one...http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/MilosAlt .  Named after a beloved, departed huge gray cat.  But it's not a real traditional alt due to the high amount of Munich.  I love it, but that's not how they do it.  My favorite German alt is Zum Uerige.  In "The New Brewer" a few years back, the brewmaster there relayed the recipe.  I posted it here....https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19049.msg242766#msg242766

I will have one on tap soon, lagering now. Initial tastes do remind me of sitting "at the place of the grumpy fellow". Used Martins Duesseldorf treated water profile, which gives a nice bitterness that does not linger too long - just like I remember it.

Zum Uerige is an outlier in some ways. The bitterness stands out compared to the other places. It has some maltiness, but no Munich malt character, other than what you could say you get from caraMunich.
Title: Re: WLP029 for altbier?
Post by: coolman26 on February 12, 2015, 02:48:13 pm
Anyone us 036?  Went to pick up 1007 today and 036 was what they had.