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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: Stevie on February 12, 2015, 03:40:36 PM

Title: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: Stevie on February 12, 2015, 03:40:36 PM
I don't have an opinion in BPA.

http://m.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2015/02/no-i-cant-why-im-turning-away-canned-craft-beer
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: yso191 on February 12, 2015, 04:15:57 PM
I don't know about the science.  I think Mother Earth News often takes a Chicken Little approach to the latest food scare without serious unbiased investigation. 

That being said, I don't like canned beer.  It does not taste the same as bottled beer.  Don't ask me why or how, I am just stating my impression.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: pete b on February 12, 2015, 04:23:04 PM
Easy choice for me, I like glass better so no need to take a chance. I can only get heady topper once in a while so I think that's my only exception. BTW I only use a couple canned food products and they come in non-BPA cans anyway. I wonder if higher end beer is using non-bpa liners anyway.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: Stevie on February 12, 2015, 04:25:17 PM

I wonder if higher end beer is using non-bpa liners anyway.
The article quoted a rep from Oscar blues stating that the only approved non-BPA liner is not approved for higher acid foods, like beer. The higher acid foods sneak past the liner and react with the aluminum. Way down at the end of the article.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: denny on February 12, 2015, 05:12:42 PM
I will always prefer canned beer if I have a choice of packaging.

Here's the antidote to the Food Babe....http://www.scibabe.com/  The Science Babe
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 12, 2015, 05:29:20 PM
You can't predict crazy, so who knows what the Food Babe will do next?

The whole can/bottle thing reminds me of an argument from a family picnic when I was in my teens.  The argument started out as can/bottled and grew from there.  One of the relatives had gone to bar, ordered a beer and didn't want it in a can (or maybe a bottle, can't recall) so the bartender poured it into a plastic cup.  The only point of agreement that I recall from that day was that beer should not be served in a plastic cup.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 12, 2015, 06:06:30 PM
I will always prefer canned beer if I have a choice of packaging.

Here's the antidote to the Food Babe....http://www.scibabe.com/  The Science Babe

The Science Babe is the antidote for the Food Babe.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: pete b on February 12, 2015, 06:36:01 PM
I will always prefer canned beer if I have a choice of packaging.

Here's the antidote to the Food Babe....http://www.scibabe.com/  The Science Babe

The Science Babe is the antidote for the Food Babe.
Or critical thinking is the antidote for the food babe... ;)
The science that BPA is toxic isn't disputed, as usual its the amount that is acceptable that we don't know yet. Common sense says keep it out of children's products, avoid it where there is a good alternative, and don't do anything stupid like microwaving acidic food in BPA containing vessels. With all stuff like this I don't freak out but do limit intake where I can. Most beers I like are in glass and I hardly use any packaged food so I really don't need to do much.
I think the key question for scientists is does BPA build up in the body so toxic levels can be reached with regular use of BPA products.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: denny on February 12, 2015, 06:57:12 PM
I will always prefer canned beer if I have a choice of packaging.

Here's the antidote to the Food Babe....http://www.scibabe.com/  The Science Babe

The Science Babe is the antidote for the Food Babe.

Yep
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: seefish on February 12, 2015, 06:59:57 PM
I suppose I'd prefer cans without a controversial substance in them but BPA isn't going to stop me from preferring cans.  I can understand a preference for bottles but I will choose whatever keeps my beer fresher.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: boulderbrewer on February 12, 2015, 10:57:30 PM
In my internet research it seems that BPA leaches out at high temperatures. FWIW.  Also there is generally BPA in the liners of the bottle caps.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: flbrewer on February 13, 2015, 12:22:26 AM
Trust me when I say this...I have OVERLY researched this topic thanks to my various phobias. It is not a concern in anyone but babies from what I understand.

If you are concerned about it, you are getting a heck of a lot more from receipts than anything else.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: klickitat jim on February 13, 2015, 02:20:55 AM
Two words. Jamil Zainashef
He says cans are best. Debate settled.

By the way, I think "they" are getting very close to proving that anecdotal evidence causes cancer. Im not really sure what we will do then.

On a serious note, I just keep it real by assuming that the unknown substances in the binder material in my chloresteol pills is worse for me than my beer can liners or the smoke in my bacon. It helps me keep it in perspective.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: a10t2 on February 13, 2015, 02:25:15 AM
I love that people can live in big cities, inhaling POUNDS of hydrocarbons per year, and spend the whole time obsessing about what they ingest at the femtomolar level.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: majorvices on February 13, 2015, 02:50:04 AM
Having watched canning lines in action as opposed to bottling lines, I can't see how cans are better since there is no way they aren't being exposed to oxygen fir a longer duration than a bottling line.

Regardless, I'm usually fine with either package. Cans are easier to recycle.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: a10t2 on February 13, 2015, 02:59:32 AM
Having watched canning lines in action as opposed to bottling lines, I can't see how cans are better since there is no way they aren't being exposed to oxygen fir a longer duration than a bottling line.

That can be true straight off the line, but a few weeks out the can will always win because even the best-capped bottle allows some oxygen ingress.

That said, best-practice packaging and storage essentially negates what minimal oxygen exposure occurs for either bottles or cans.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: majorvices on February 13, 2015, 03:34:47 AM
Having watched canning lines in action as opposed to bottling lines, I can't see how cans are better since there is no way they aren't being exposed to oxygen fir a longer duration than a bottling line.

That can be true straight off the line, but a few weeks out the can will always win because even the best-capped bottle allows some oxygen ingress.

That said, best-practice packaging and storage essentially negates what minimal oxygen exposure occurs for either bottles or cans.

Heard that before. So seems like a wash.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 13, 2015, 04:17:19 AM
People cite recycling as an advantage for cans.  I'm skeptical.  Consider the amount of pollution caused by mining aluminum in the first place, then the burning of fossil fuels required to transport recyclables then to process them I wonder if it is a wash.  I assume recycling aluminum is more cost efficient  than mining it but recycling aluminum has to require more energy than reusing a bottle.  That said,  I prefer my beer in cans.  Pilsner Urquell is a great example of how cans are better than bottles.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: majorvices on February 13, 2015, 08:12:24 AM
The one huge advantage I see in cans is that they are much lighter. I think either is a fine package but I really do prefer bottles and I don't find the canned beer I have drank really tastes any fresher.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 13, 2015, 11:51:30 AM
That can be true straight off the line, but a few weeks out the can will always win because even the best-capped bottle allows some oxygen ingress.
 
That's been my feeling for a while. I think especially with hoppy styles that cans seem (to me) to stay fresher longer. I always assumed that cans are CO2 purged when filled and afterward, zero O2 ingress.   
                                                                                                                                         
I love that people can live in big cities, inhaling POUNDS of hydrocarbons per year, and spend the whole time obsessing about what they ingest at the femtomolar level.

+1
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: majorvices on February 13, 2015, 12:33:32 PM
That can be true straight off the line, but a few weeks out the can will always win because even the best-capped bottle allows some oxygen ingress.
 
That's been my feeling for a while. I think especially with hoppy styles that cans seem (to me) to stay fresher longer. I always assumed that cans are CO2 purged when filled and afterward, zero O2 ingress.   
                                                                                                                                         
I love that people can live in big cities, inhaling POUNDS of hydrocarbons per year, and spend the whole time obsessing about what they ingest at the femtomolar level.

+1

I've watched the cans get filled from 2 different local breweries when i was trying to decide on cans or bottles. The cheaper canning lines (ones in reach of small craft breweries) float down a conveyor. They do get purged before the get filled, but this is without the lid on. Then they go to the next station and get the lid. There's a second at least between each station. That is an awfully large amount of surface area just open to the air for what I felt like was a cringe worthy amount of time.

On my Meheen bottler I'm able to completely purge the bottle and because the neck is narrower I feel that the purge is better and more o2 is kept in the bottle. Then, the capping station is almost instantaneous, and it caps on foam.

Maybe there are canning lines out there that work better than the one's I have seen (Cask, is what I believe I have seen) but from my estimation seemed like the Meheen was a better solution for keeping out o2. Sure, perhaps the ingress is a problem on the caps but we aim to have most of our product consumed within 2-3 months if at all possible anyway.

I don't think either is a perfect package, draft is far better - and even it has its problems with dirty lines and poor co2 serving pressure - so nothing is perfect. But I really think that all things considered it is probably a wash for short term package. That said, I have some 10% ABV 22 oz bombers I bottled at YH that taste great 2 years later.

And i know some of you snobby twerps will turn your prim little noses up but I still like to knock one back out of a cold long neck every now and then and I do not enjoy drinking out of a can. ;)
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 13, 2015, 12:50:07 PM
On a Bell's tour I saw the canning line they put in, a big KHS with a 30 head filler IRRC. They said that was selected due to low TPO and line rate, but it was expensive.

Cans are lighter and are easy to reheat and pour new ones. The bottles are one way these days, and we homebrewers are the ones that refill them with beer. The bottles are crushed and the glass can be reheated and pour again.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 13, 2015, 12:51:43 PM
And i know some of you snobby twerps will turn your prim little noses up but I still like to knock one back out of a cold long neck every now and then and I do not enjoy drinking out of a can. ;)

Hey, I do too now and then !  And I definitely don't drink out of cans though. Honestly fresh bottles or cans is what it's really about anyway, if you can't get the fresh draft. I think when the beer gets a little older is when it seems to me that cans are better. My wife bought me a 12 of Boston Lager and Sierra Pale in cans a while back and I thought the hop character was noticeably better in both, compared to botlles of that age.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: majorvices on February 13, 2015, 12:54:09 PM
And i know some of you snobby twerps will turn your prim little noses up but I still like to knock one back out of a cold long neck every now and then and I do not enjoy drinking out of a can. ;)

Hey, I do too now and then !  And I definitely don't drink out of cans though. Honestly fresh bottles or cans is what it's really about anyway, if you can't get the fresh draft. I think when the beer gets a little older is when it seems to me that cans are better. My wife bought me a 12 of Boston Lager and Sierra Pale in cans a while back and I thought the hop character was noticeably better in both, compared to botlles of that age.

Of course you do because the 21st Amendment ad on the Brewing networok told you to think that. ;)
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 13, 2015, 12:55:58 PM
And i know some of you snobby twerps will turn your prim little noses up but I still like to knock one back out of a cold long neck every now and then and I do not enjoy drinking out of a can. ;)

Hey, I do too now and then !  And I definitely don't drink out of cans though. Honestly fresh bottles or cans is what it's really about anyway, if you can't get the fresh draft. I think when the beer gets a little older is when it seems to me that cans are better. My wife bought me a 12 of Boston Lager and Sierra Pale in cans a while back and I thought the hop character was noticeably better in both, compared to botlles of that age.

Of course you do because the 21st Amendment ad on the Brewing networok told you to think that. ;)

I honestly haven't seen or heard it. Scout's honor.   :D   
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: a10t2 on February 13, 2015, 04:21:51 PM
I've watched the cans get filled from 2 different local breweries when i was trying to decide on cans or bottles. The cheaper canning lines (ones in reach of small craft breweries) float down a conveyor. They do get purged before the get filled, but this is without the lid on. Then they go to the next station and get the lid.

If you're filling the cans correctly the lids will "cap on foam" just like with a bottle. For small-scale machines like the Merlins, I really don't think there's much difference.

The really big rotary canners put the heads inside a partially evacuated CO2 hood. In our water testing, we weren't able to get consistently measurable DO levels in those cans.
Title: Re: Will beer cans be the "Food Babe's" next target?
Post by: Jimmy K on February 13, 2015, 09:36:37 PM
I will always prefer canned beer if I have a choice of packaging.

Here's the antidote to the Food Babe....http://www.scibabe.com/  The Science Babe
I'm in love.

Edit for clarity - I'm not professing my love for Denny.