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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Phil_M on February 14, 2015, 02:17:36 PM

Title: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Phil_M on February 14, 2015, 02:17:36 PM
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Has anyone on here used this strain towards the high end of it's temperature range?

I'm considering trying to ferment an experimental beer in an outdoor fermenter during the Southern Maryland summer, when temps should vary from the 80s to mid 90s.

Do the phenols get completely out of hand around the 95 degree limit on this yeast?
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 14, 2015, 03:00:48 PM
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Has anyone on here used this strain towards the high end of it's temperature range?

I'm considering trying to ferment an experimental beer in an outdoor fermenter during the Southern Maryland summer, when temps should vary from the 80s to mid 90s.

Do the phenols get completely out of hand around the 95 degree limit on this yeast?

Yeah, Wyeast recommends fermenting @ 90F to avoid the famous 3724 stall.  I've fermented it at 90F and liked the results - it got to 1.006 after about 8 days, 1.002 FG at 12 days IIRC.  I wouldn't have dreamed of doing this with any other yeast, as you'd normally get a phenolic, fusel bomb. But it made a good beer - saison yeasts are a different animal.  My other method (that I still use) is to pitch 3724 at 65F and, when it starts to stall (and it will at that temp) , pitch with 3711 and ramp up after 48 hours. Gives you some of the complexity of 3724 with the attenuative nature of 3711.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: duboman on February 14, 2015, 03:24:40 PM
https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Has anyone on here used this strain towards the high end of it's temperature range?

I'm considering trying to ferment an experimental beer in an outdoor fermenter during the Southern Maryland summer, when temps should vary from the 80s to mid 90s.

Do the phenols get completely out of hand around the 95 degree limit on this yeast?

Yeah, Wyeast recommends fermenting @ 90F to avoid the famous 3724 stall.  I've fermented it at 90F and liked the results - it got to 1.006 after about 8 days, 1.002 FG at 12 days IIRC.  I wouldn't have dreamed of doing this with any other yeast, as you'd normally get a phenolic, fusel bomb. But it made a good beer - saison yeasts are a different animal.  My other method (that I still use) is to pitch 3724 at 65F and, when it starts to stall (and it will at that temp) , pitch with 3711 and ramp up after 48 hours. Gives you some of the complexity of 3724 with the attenuative nature of 3711.
+1
I pitch this yeast at 80 and hold at 90, makes a great beer and finishes around 1.002-.005 easily in 10 days! Its definitely a finicky strain
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Phil_M on February 14, 2015, 06:08:55 PM
How long of a secondary should I consider? Is this a drink it fresh strain or a let it sit and age strain?
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 14, 2015, 06:37:37 PM
I don't secondary Saison (or most styles).  I keg it when it's ready. Especially the stronger saisons can benefit from a little time , of course.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: AmandaK on February 14, 2015, 10:39:16 PM
Drink fresh, pitch a LOT of yeast, and pitch high with 3724. Love this yeast.

PS: if you your want the email from Wyeast themselves about the high initial temp, I can post it when I get some time to dig it out of my gmail.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Phil_M on February 16, 2015, 06:27:42 PM
If you don't mind, more information would be helpful. If you can't dig up the email don't worry about it though.

Thanks for all the help folks. Just wanted some reassurance that 90 degrees was a good idea. :)
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: AmandaK on February 16, 2015, 06:48:45 PM
It is post #9 in this thread: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16134.0 (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16134.0), where we all discussed this back in 2013.

Here is the post again, copy-pasted:

As a note for everyone, I emailed Wyeast and boy did they get back to me promptly!

Quote from: AmandaK
Wyeast 3724. I love this strain but don't like the stalling.

I've heard rumor that you guys have tested pitching it around 80*F and raising it to 90*F. I would think this would give faster results than my usual one month ordeal. (I usually pitch around upper 60s to low 70s, then ramp to 80, then once it stalls it heads to 90 for three weeks.)

Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, did you get the same flavor/aroma profile and what timeline did you see?

Quote from: Wyeast
Hi Amanda,

What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling.  Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.

That settles it. I'm doing a 3724/Nelson Sauvin rebrew but pitching at 90*. I hope this goes well!

FWIW, I never did do a 3724 at 90F personally, but other people have with success, as noted in the linked thread. My WLP565 fresh slurry source dried up (he's turning pro, and is in the weird 'shouldn't brew as a homebrewer but can't brew as a brewer' limbo) so I'll grab a couple of packets of 3724 for our next 10g batch and pitch it at 90F. That brew day is scheduled for sometime in March.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: AmandaK on February 16, 2015, 07:01:58 PM
I should note though, after reading your first post, I would not want to ferment this yeast in swinging temperatures. 3724 is a fickle beast, and a temperature drop of 10 degrees is likely to put it to sleep. Constant 90F is what we are all doing here, not varying temps.

TL:DR - I would not ferment this yeast as you have stated in your first post, despite it being able to behave at 90F.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on February 16, 2015, 10:34:35 PM
I should note though, after reading your first post, I would not want to ferment this yeast in swinging temperatures. 3724 is a fickle beast, and a temperature drop of 10 degrees is likely to put it to sleep. Constant 90F is what we are all doing here, not varying temps.

TL:DR - I would not ferment this yeast as you have stated in your first post, despite it being able to behave at 90F.

YES

3724 can complete fermentation in the high 70s / low 80s, but it needs to be a steady rise and stay consistent. You have to be able to hold the temperature steady between set point changes and especially at the high end, during the last few points of attenuation and clean up.

By steady, I mean constant within 2 degrees F or so.

I don't ferment in the 90s because I can't hold the temperature steady when its that high. The fermentation may take longer than normal ale fermentations, but I like to think of it as slow-moving rather than stalled.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Phil_M on February 16, 2015, 11:40:52 PM
Yeah, about halfway through the thread I realized that fermenting without outdoor ambient temps wouldn't be ideal.

Still may try it though, just on a smaller scale. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The idea of brewing a farmhouse ale and fermenting it in that manner is attractive, whatever the outcome.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 17, 2015, 02:05:32 AM
3724 is a fickle beast, and a temperature drop of 10 degrees is likely to put it to sleep. Constant 90F is what we are all doing here, not varying temps.

TL:DR - I would not ferment this yeast as you have stated in your first post, despite it being able to behave at 90F.

Fickle is an understatement.  I've given up on this yeast but if you have the patience and you're willing to bend to it's will it will make a great beer.  You must do what it wants, it will not do what you want.  Temp swings are not good.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Phil_M on March 15, 2015, 12:59:39 AM
I've got another question about this yeast.

Brewed a beer using this yeast a week ago, it's been fermenting happily at 92*F for a week now.

At what point do the high temps begin to mess with the beer as opposed to helping the yeast? Unless anyone has a better idea I'm just going to keep taking gravity readings and lower the temps when fermentation is complete.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: duboman on March 15, 2015, 01:29:35 PM
I've got another question about this yeast.

Brewed a beer using this yeast a week ago, it's been fermenting happily at 92*F for a week now.

At what point do the high temps begin to mess with the beer as opposed to helping the yeast? Unless anyone has a better idea I'm just going to keep taking gravity readings and lower the temps when fermentation is complete.
Essentially, once the beer has reached the confirmed FG there is no need to keep the temp high since its done.

After it ferments out simply let it condition at ambient or cold crash it and package it.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 15, 2015, 01:46:06 PM
I've got another question about this yeast.

Brewed a beer using this yeast a week ago, it's been fermenting happily at 92*F for a week now.

At what point do the high temps begin to mess with the beer as opposed to helping the yeast? Unless anyone has a better idea I'm just going to keep taking gravity readings and lower the temps when fermentation is complete.
Essentially, once the beer has reached the confirmed FG there is no need to keep the temp high since its done.

After it ferments out simply let it condition at ambient or cold crash it and package it.

Yep
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Phil_M on March 16, 2015, 12:13:53 AM
That's what I figured, thanks for confirming my thoughts.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: bott scaker on May 10, 2021, 05:30:11 AM
This yeast is a hungry killer -- amazing if temp right --becomes sour and peppery, not like black pepper, but kinda w/ fruity notes, absolutely wonderful, my new fav - no stall - only bubbles n suds like alka seltzer.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Cliffs on May 10, 2021, 04:50:21 PM
I've used this yeast a ton, and high temps are unnecessary and probably do more harm than good. For this yeast strain, it needs the presence of oxygen and the absence of simple sugars to create the enzyme necessary for the extraordinary high attenuation we expect with a saison. I pitch a healthy starter into well oxygenated wort at about 66-68 degrees at let free rise to about 1 to 2 degrees a day. you must open ferment when you do a primary fermentation with this yeast, you can use a loose piece of foil over your airlock  or just crack the lid of your fermenter.  At about day 3-7 close up your fermenter and let finish normally.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: bott scaker on May 10, 2021, 07:13:40 PM
So not true sorry for the conflict --i started out at 95 and it kept going and going and going and I used a carboy with blowoff tube and its perfect --dont use foil it makes no sense and/or diff in outcome, its pure conjecture and simply not the case with yeast pressure
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: bott scaker on May 10, 2021, 07:19:54 PM
Wyeast recommends the high temps and after or at 95 magic happens. There was test run for foil vs no foil and it made no diff and actually the craboy did better, so pls dont push the foil method and wyeast says same thing. Use 95 for as long as it wants to eat , I kept feeding it and it is sour and pepper and is amazing, just like  saison should be. [ ]) Cheers!
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: bott scaker on May 10, 2021, 07:29:09 PM
and @Cliffs, not saying your method won't or doesn't work, the foil is uneccssary and the all the trouble of how you do it is not a must or req for amazing outcomes.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: bott scaker on May 10, 2021, 07:44:30 PM
https://brulosophy.com/2016/07/04/the-impact-of-back-pressure-on-the-saison-dupont-yeast-strain-exbeeriment-results/

A brewdude did an experiment with foil and w/ out
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: denny on May 10, 2021, 08:17:43 PM
https://brulosophy.com/2016/07/04/the-impact-of-back-pressure-on-the-saison-dupont-yeast-strain-exbeeriment-results/

A brewdude did an experiment with foil and w/ out

Marshall participated in the saison open ferment experiment we did on Experimental Brewing.  He was the ONLY one who didn't experience better fermentation through open fermentation.  And no one knows if it's back pressure or CO2 toxicity. 
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: denny on May 10, 2021, 08:21:12 PM
https://brulosophy.com/2016/07/04/the-impact-of-back-pressure-on-the-saison-dupont-yeast-strain-exbeeriment-results/

A brewdude did an experiment with foil and w/ out

Marshall participated in the saison open ferment experiment we did on Experimental Brewing.  He was the ONLY one who didn't experience better fermentation through open fermentation.  And no one knows if it's back pressure or CO2 toxicity. 

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-18-saison-under-pressure

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/saison-yeast-airlock-vs-open-ferment-does-it-prevent-stall
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Cliffs on May 10, 2021, 08:51:25 PM
So not true sorry for the conflict --i started out at 95 and it kept going and going and going and I used a carboy with blowoff tube and its perfect --dont use foil it makes no sense and/or diff in outcome, its pure conjecture and simply not the case with yeast pressure

I've participated in some of the research re: diastatic yeast and glucoamalyse  production. Absence of simple sugars+ oxygen= enzyme production and high attenuation. There is no conjecture in what I am saying. We've even identified the genes necessary for this.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Cliffs on May 10, 2021, 08:53:56 PM
https://brulosophy.com/2016/07/04/the-impact-of-back-pressure-on-the-saison-dupont-yeast-strain-exbeeriment-results/

A brewdude did an experiment with foil and w/ out

Marshall participated in the saison open ferment experiment we did on Experimental Brewing.  He was the ONLY one who didn't experience better fermentation through open fermentation.  And no one knows if it's back pressure or CO2 toxicity. 

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-18-saison-under-pressure

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/saison-yeast-airlock-vs-open-ferment-does-it-prevent-stall

its neither. If 3724 was affected by co2 or pressure, then it would never bottle condition.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: narcout on May 10, 2021, 09:10:29 PM
I've participated in some of the research re: diastatic yeast and glucoamalyse  production. Absence of simple sugars+ oxygen= enzyme production and high attenuation.

Are you saying absence of simple sugars and absence of oxygen or absence of simple sugars and presence of oxygen?
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: Cliffs on May 10, 2021, 09:14:00 PM
I've participated in some of the research re: diastatic yeast and glucoamalyse  production. Absence of simple sugars+ oxygen= enzyme production and high attenuation.

Are you saying absence of simple sugars and absence of oxygen or absence of simple sugars and presence of oxygen?

absence of simple sugars and the presence of oxygen. For 3724 this is what is needed for high attenuation. Some diastatic strains are compulsive enzyme producers and make it as a function of fermentation, 3711 being a good example of this.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: bott scaker on May 11, 2021, 03:04:41 AM
All that aside, I am brewing with it at 95 and its magic and high attenuation and its sour and fruity peppery and it's magic. mine was carboy with blow off and its amazing, mine is high alcohol and high carb i cant wait to put it in my mini keg, say what you will all that jazz aint necessary my way allows for  FANTASTIC results - not using open ferment or low temps. To each his own method, mine works great and yours probably is very awesome in its own right, but not a must. [ ]) Cheers mate!
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: bott scaker on May 11, 2021, 03:14:40 AM
I shook the crap out of it every three to six hours for 10 days while it feasted on everything, it will eat a hole through your walls if you let it, watch your fingers with this strain it will eat them too. LOL

Like I said b4 it's a hungry killer that LOVES the killroom hot as balls. i could hear it sing praises to the heat as the bubbles ascended the meniscus through the bottleneck and into my nose with the sweet smell of magic.
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: BeerfanOz on May 11, 2021, 05:45:40 AM
I find whether it stalls or not, it’s a great yeast. But 3726 is just as good, and never stalls. I like both
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: BeerfanOz on May 11, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
I've used this yeast a ton, and high temps are unnecessary and probably do more harm than good. For this yeast strain, it needs the presence of oxygen and the absence of simple sugars to create the enzyme necessary for the extraordinary high attenuation we expect with a saison. I pitch a healthy starter into well oxygenated wort at about 66-68 degrees at let free rise to about 1 to 2 degrees a day. you must open ferment when you do a primary fermentation with this yeast, you can use a loose piece of foil over your airlock  or just crack the lid of your fermenter.  At about day 3-7 close up your fermenter and let finish normally.

How much oxygen do you use? I just got an O2 setup, mainly for lagers but I like saison so I’ll try it . Though, I find a long, low temp mash without simple sugars will get me to 1.005 consistently without much effort regardless of if I’m using 3724 or 3726
Title: Re: Wyeast 3724 Fermentation Temperatures
Post by: denny on May 11, 2021, 01:50:50 PM
I've participated in some of the research re: diastatic yeast and glucoamalyse  production. Absence of simple sugars+ oxygen= enzyme production and high attenuation.

Are you saying absence of simple sugars and absence of oxygen or absence of simple sugars and presence of oxygen?

absence of simple sugars and the presence of oxygen. For 3724 this is what is needed for high attenuation. Some diastatic strains are compulsive enzyme producers and make it as a function of fermentation, 3711 being a good example of this.

Interesting.  Can you talk about who the experiment was for or what the methodology was?  I'm curious how that conclusion was reached.