Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: Herminator on February 24, 2015, 03:12:06 AM

Title: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Herminator on February 24, 2015, 03:12:06 AM
Well...results are in and I passed the tasting exam. Scored an 80 which I feel good about.  Only a recognized judge as I only have 1 experience point.  Need to get some more experience points.  Anyways, just wanted to share the good news and say thank you, as being part of this forum helped my knowledge base.  Cheers! 
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: dkfick on February 24, 2015, 03:25:08 AM
Well...results are in and I passed the tasting exam. Scored an 80 which I feel good about.  Only a recognized judge as I only have 1 experience point.  Need to get some more experience points.  Anyways, just wanted to share the good news and say thank you, as being part of this forum helped my knowledge base.  Cheers!
Congrats!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: jeffjm on February 24, 2015, 03:27:56 AM
An 80 with that little experience is outstanding.  Great job!

Just out of curiosity,  when did you take the test?
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: braufessor on February 24, 2015, 03:28:54 AM
Congrats!  I just took mine 2-3 weeks ago..... so, I have a while to wait.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Herminator on February 24, 2015, 03:34:31 AM
Thanks all!  jeffjm, I took the tasting exam in mid September 2014.  Received the results a few days ago. 
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: mchrispen on February 24, 2015, 03:54:52 AM
Grats! You should be proud!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: cascadesrunner on February 24, 2015, 04:21:24 AM
Congrats. 
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on February 24, 2015, 01:25:51 PM
well done! I'm still waiting on the results from my exam in November.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on February 24, 2015, 01:53:04 PM
Congrats!

80 is a great score since it allows you to take the written exam. It shows you have the ability to write a National score sheet. The nice thing is by the time you get the 20 points required to be National you will more than likely be writing even better score sheet!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: YooperBrew on February 24, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
Congrats!

80 is a great score since it allows you to take the written exam. It shows you have the ability to write a National score sheet. The nice thing is by the time you get the 20 points required to be National you will more than likely be writing even better score sheet!


That's exactly what I was thinking!  In my first exam, I only got a 75 which means I have to retake in order to eligible to become a National judge.  I had quite a few experience points by that time, so I was certified right away, but for you to score an 80 on the first go is awesome!

Congrats on that.

Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 24, 2015, 04:30:57 PM
A score of 80 on the first shot is indeed an accomplishment.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 24, 2015, 04:39:52 PM
well done! I'm still waiting on the results from my exam in November.

I bet that you receive your results within the next three to four weeks.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: santoch on February 24, 2015, 05:08:49 PM
Congrats!
80 is a great score-  Not many get 80, let alone first time out.
Great job!

Steve
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Pinski on February 24, 2015, 06:02:36 PM
Congratulations!
I'm right there with you, working hard to build up enough points to qualify for the written test.

Cheers!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Herminator on February 25, 2015, 03:04:08 AM
Thanks all!  Cheers!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 25, 2015, 03:15:46 AM
80 is very good, if I get motivated to take the tasting again, I would be satisfied with that.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Philbrew on February 25, 2015, 03:31:39 AM
Wow, whoda thunk it would take such hard work to be able to drink really good beer.   :) : ;D
congrats!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 25, 2015, 05:40:32 AM
Wow really great score Herman!  I am taking the exam in June and hope to just pass. Your high score is exceptional.  Congrats, dude!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 25, 2015, 07:02:22 PM
80 is very good, if I get motivated to take the tasting again, I would be satisfied with that.

I have met a lot of knowledgeable judges who have been at the Certified rank for years because they have chosen to not re-sit for the beer judging exam. 
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: klickitat jim on February 26, 2015, 01:59:49 AM
I got my Recognized pin today. Wore it around for a while but no one recognized it. I'm 1.5 points from certified, maybe I'll be famous then

I plan to stay certified until I have the points for national. At that point if I know for certain I could score high 80s and I have time to do what nationals do, I'll retest.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 26, 2015, 02:41:28 AM
Two issues for me - not enough room in my head for all the styles to be memorized; not a young enough palate to recognize the distinctions well enough any more.  So if I pass at all it will be by a bit of luck.  I can judge the heck out of beers when I have the style guidelines in front of me, but take that away and I am like a blind librarian trying to restack books by feel.

I don't understand why the test is set up the way it is, since no (or very few) judges judge without the style guidelines sitting in front of them....but hey, I don't know it all.  They do the bar exam and doctors boards closed book, so maybe it makes sense to do it that way.  Enough of my rant! Back to my Helles.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: santoch on February 26, 2015, 02:49:38 AM
Congrats, Jim!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: dkfick on February 26, 2015, 03:01:12 AM
Two issues for me - not enough room in my head for all the styles to be memorized; not a young enough palate to recognize the distinctions well enough any more.  So if I pass at all it will be by a bit of luck.  I can judge the heck out of beers when I have the style guidelines in front of me, but take that away and I am like a blind librarian trying to restack books by feel.

I don't understand why the test is set up the way it is, since no (or very few) judges judge without the style guidelines sitting in front of them....but hey, I don't know it all.  They do the bar exam and doctors boards closed book, so maybe it makes sense to do it that way.  Enough of my rant! Back to my Helles.

When you're evaluating a beer the guidelines are unnecessary.  They should only be referred to when attempting to assign points but for simply writing down what you smell, see, taste, and feel in your mouth no guidelines should be used.  The issue with judges using them as they are writing down what they perceive is they suddenly start to perceive what the guidelines say instead of what their senses say.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 26, 2015, 03:11:30 AM
I find them helpful for what is allowed in the style, but not necessarily considered to be "required", as well as those aspects that are absent, because they are supposed to be absent.  Keeping all of that in my head is the problem.  You must be pretty good to work without the style guidelines.  I suppose iit comes with time, but when entering a beer and getting dinged for a characteristic that is perfectly permissible, one wishes that the judge read the style guidelines more carefully....just sayin.  Again, I am sitting for the taste exam in June, so maybe I will come away with a different perspective, but I doubt it.  I felt the same way about the bar exam when I took it and passed.  And still feel the same way about it.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: klickitat jim on February 26, 2015, 03:35:12 AM
Congrats, Jim!
Thanks!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 26, 2015, 03:10:34 PM
Good job Jim.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 26, 2015, 03:27:59 PM
Nice job, Jim.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: reverseapachemaster on February 26, 2015, 03:29:42 PM
Two issues for me - not enough room in my head for all the styles to be memorized; not a young enough palate to recognize the distinctions well enough any more.  So if I pass at all it will be by a bit of luck.  I can judge the heck out of beers when I have the style guidelines in front of me, but take that away and I am like a blind librarian trying to restack books by feel.

I don't understand why the test is set up the way it is, since no (or very few) judges judge without the style guidelines sitting in front of them....but hey, I don't know it all.  They do the bar exam and doctors boards closed book, so maybe it makes sense to do it that way.  Enough of my rant! Back to my Helles.

As much as it doesn't make sense to test that way, if you let people test open book then almost everybody would get a perfect score. Then you're just testing to see who will spend a few hours reviewing the guidelines and another few hours taking the test. That sets a far lower threshold to become a recognized judge. Memorization as a proxy for comprehension isn't perfect but it still sets a better standard.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on February 26, 2015, 03:51:11 PM
As much as it doesn't make sense to test that way, if you let people test open book then almost everybody would get a perfect score. Then you're just testing to see who will spend a few hours reviewing the guidelines and another few hours taking the test. That sets a far lower threshold to become a recognized judge. Memorization as a proxy for comprehension isn't perfect but it still sets a better standard.
In reality, you can become a recognized judge without knowing _anything_ in the guidelines.  When looking at the scoring guide, you can get relatively easily in the mid-60s just with the parts that are fully within your control (Descriptive Ability, Feedback and Completeness) with even mediocre results in the parts dependent on the proctors, other examinees, and style guidelines (Scoring accuracy and Perception).  Really the only part where guidelines even enter the picture is overall impression (for recipe-based feedback) and scoring.  According to graders, you will maximize your score by only mentioning style in OI.  All of AAFM should be only what you sense described as completely as you can.

I got my Recognized pin today. Wore it around for a while but no one recognized it. I'm 1.5 points from certified, maybe I'll be famous then
Doesn't help.  ;)  I skipped right over Recognized (had enough points in the 6 months it took me to get my results to be instantly Certified), and I'm not famous (that I'm aware of).  The real catch is that I need to wait for my last results before I can even think about scheduling the next step towards National (I got a 75 first time around).
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Jimmy K on February 26, 2015, 03:51:33 PM
I find them helpful for what is allowed in the style, but not necessarily considered to be "required", as well as those aspects that are absent, because they are supposed to be absent.  Keeping all of that in my head is the problem.  You must be pretty good to work without the style guidelines.  I suppose iit comes with time, but when entering a beer and getting dinged for a characteristic that is perfectly permissible, one wishes that the judge read the style guidelines more carefully....just sayin.  Again, I am sitting for the taste exam in June, so maybe I will come away with a different perspective, but I doubt it.  I felt the same way about the bar exam when I took it and passed.  And still feel the same way about it.
They certainly are useful, but knowing the guidelines is a fairly small part of passing the new tasting exam. A passing score requires mostly accurate tasting skills, ability to describe what you perceive, and high quality brewing feedback.
 
Consider that the score is based on five areas, each worth 20% -
Perceptive Accuracy: How much does what you perceive match up to what the proctors and other examinees detected.
Descriptive Ability: How well do you describe your perceptions? Lots of adjectives, level descriptors, etc?
Feedback: Do you offer high quality brewing feedback that matches the errors you've noted.
Completeness: How complete is your scoresheet - all attributes addressed, checkboxes marked, etc.
Scoring: How does your overall score match the proctors?
 
Knowing the guidelines counts mostly with score and to an extent for feedback, but it has nothing to do with the other areas. The minimum Scoring score is 9 of 20 points, so guidelines affect 30% of your score at most. And even for feedback, if you detect diacetyl and give good recommendations to remove diacetyl. You'll probably get partial credit even if diacetyl is acceptable per style - because they want you to show that you know your stuff.
 
I'd also add that I got a 77 with a general understanding of beer styles. ie - I know what they should taste like but could not quote specific attributes. That memorization is much more important to get National scores - especially for the written exam.
 
There is also language in the draft 2014 (now 2015) guidelines that warns against getting too picky about specific style points. As Gordon Strong put it "You should be able to reward a good beer".
 
The other reality is that although many judges refer to guidelines during competition, there is no time to read them thoroughly. You must have a baseline understanding of the style going in. Even with time to read a full guideline - a judgement based solely on comparison to a written description is likely to be poor.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: klickitat jim on February 26, 2015, 08:38:31 PM
I got mostly master level completeness and descriptions, my feedback was between certified and national, but I fubard a couple scores (one too high, one too low as compared to the proctors) which ends up counting against you twice because those scores are going to be based on perceptions,  right? So I gave a Leffe a 39, too high. And a RIS that I got soy age in a high 20s, too low. In the end I am happy and confident with my judging ability and at the same time not not implying someone else screwed up. Certified (once I have the points) is right where I should be. Nothing to be ashamed of for a self taught judge whos been brewing less than 3 years. And still plenty of room to grow.

My suggestion for anyone getting into judging, be confident but open to input and change. Judges should have an opinion. But not fight tooth n nail over it. Its ok to be wrong. How else do you learn?
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Jimmy K on February 26, 2015, 09:21:13 PM
I got mostly master level completeness and descriptions, my feedback was between certified and national, but I fubard a couple scores (one too high, one too low as compared to the proctors) which ends up counting against you twice because those scores are going to be based on perceptions,  right?
Maybe - my last exam I had master level perceptions and apprentice level scoring one beer. I'm still wondering what went sideways there.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: AmandaK on February 26, 2015, 09:51:01 PM
My suggestion for anyone getting into judging, be confident but open to input and change. Judges should have an opinion. But not fight tooth n nail over it. Its ok to be wrong. How else do you learn?

Right on, buddy. Right on.

BTW - congrats to all you new judges getting excellent scores on the tasting exam. I'll look forward to judging with you in the future!  8)
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 26, 2015, 10:06:40 PM
I plan to stay certified until I have the points for national. At that point if I know for certain I could score high 80s and I have time to do what nationals do, I'll retest.

There's nothing wrong with scoring high enough for Certified on your first attempt.  It took me two attempts to achieve a Certified-level score (granted, I was naive/arrogant enough to believe that I could pass the beer judging exam with zero preparation on the first shot).  I probably would not have achieved the score that I did on my second attempt if I have not taken Mike D's advice to heart.  I made certain that I left little to no white space on my score sheets.

There's a lot that goes to into passing the beer judging exam other than beer and brewing knowledge.  The beer judging exam mostly tests one's ability to smell, taste, and describe.  Sadly, like vision, one's ability to smell and taste deteriorates with age; hence, I urge younger brewers who many be interested in sitting for the exam one day to not put that day off.  Any disadvantage that you may have when it comes to brewing experience and knowledge is more than offset by a young keen sense of smell and taste when sitting for the beer judging exam.

Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: gmwren on February 26, 2015, 10:31:53 PM
I took the same exam as Mark and scored an 80. I actually could have done better, but I tried to game the system. I had always heard there would be one really bad beer, one really good beer, and a lot in between. So after three really bad beers, the 4th was very, very good, so assumed it was the ringer. Unfortunately, it was not exactly to style. I committed the worst sin a judge can do and did not judge the beer in front of me. I judged a ringer. I learned a lesson and was thankful for the score.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 27, 2015, 01:08:53 AM
This sounds encouraging by all accounts.  I just don't know how my numbers will compare to the proctors, who have substantial experience in assigning numerical scores to the five scoring categories.  The rest I think I can get through reasonably well, even with an old worn out palate.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: klickitat jim on February 27, 2015, 01:34:41 AM
This sounds encouraging by all accounts.  I just don't know how my numbers will compare to the proctors, who have substantial experience in assigning numerical scores to the five scoring categories.  The rest I think I can get through reasonably well, even with an old worn out palate.
Its pretty subjective. But keep this in mind. 50 is perfect, nothing at all could ever be improved on, like at all. For example, an Anchor Steam, at the brewery, fresh off the faucet, in a year when all of the ingredients were all at their prime, might get somewhere between 42 and 48, even though it defines the Cal Common style. 30 "can" win a gold medal at NHC, in theory.

Having said that, I believe the best approach is to score em as you see em and let the chips fall where they may. I wouldn't worry about trying to think like someone else, or as they say, game it.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 27, 2015, 03:16:48 AM
The exam that I sat with gmwren was my first shot at the exam.  I had no idea as to what I had bitten off.  I went from not knowing how the BJCP was organized to sitting for the entrance and beer judging exam literally within the span of a week.  Looking back and knowing what I know now, it's amazing that I was able to get that far. Luckily, I did not know enough about the beer judging exam to attempt to "game" it.

I had the opportunity to re-sit for the beer judging exam early last fall as a high number on a waiting list.  I am glad that I  spent time judging before sitting for this exam session because no doctored beers were served.  The real world flaws in the beers served during this session were much more subtle than the heavily doctored beers that were served at the exam that I sat with gmwren (he was not kidding when he stated that three awful beers were followed by a beer that appeared to be ringer).  I just did my best to describe the beers that were placed in front of me, and I made certain that I filled the white space on each score sheet.  My motto is now, "When in doubt, fill the score sheet out!"
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 27, 2015, 03:27:49 AM
The exam that I sat with gmwren was my first shot at the exam.  I had no idea as to what I had bitten off.  I went from not knowing how the BJCP was organized to sitting for the entrance and beer judging exam literally within the span of a week.  Looking back and knowing what I know now, it's amazing that I was able to get that far. Luckily, I did not know enough about the beer judging exam to attempt to "game" it.

I had the opportunity to re-sit for the beer judging exam early last fall as a high number on a waiting list.  I am glad that I  spent time judging before sitting for this exam session because no doctored beers were served.  The real world flaws in the beers served during this session were much more subtle than the heavily doctored beers that were served at the exam that I sat with gmwren (he was not kidding when he stated that three awful beers were followed by a beer that appeared to be ringer).  I just did my best to describe the beers that were placed in front of me, and I made certain that I filled the white space on each score sheet.  My motto is now, "When in doubt, fill the score sheet out!"
Good to see that you listened to some of the tough critics and tried again, and had a better result.

I need to try the tasting again.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on February 27, 2015, 12:24:43 PM
The main thing I'm stessing about is that I addd a few notes on a few beers on the back of the page because I can write small or I can write neatly but I can't seem to do both. When the sheets were scanned and sent to the graders only the front of the page was scanned. This makes perfect sense to me I just wish I had thought about it before going all Beth Zangari on the sheets.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on February 27, 2015, 12:41:45 PM
Only the front side is scanned and photocopied. It's part of the instructions:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Exam_Cover_Sheet.pdf
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: braufessor on February 27, 2015, 02:04:00 PM
I took the exam a few weeks ago, and I would say the two things that really stuck out to me (for those who may be taking it in the future) were:

1.) The bad (sub 20) and very good (high 30's- low to mid 40's) beers were very easy to score I thought.  If you know the style guideline (basically) of the good beers, it almost checks itself off.  The worst beer is usually a lot about process flaws..... which leads to other problems like its appearance, its aroma, flavor, etc.  It also makes it easy to give some advice.   I found the 25-35 type beers harder to judge.  Each had something that was pretty decent.  Each had some things that were lacking.  In hindsight, the one descriptor that I really wish I would have thought of at the time for those beers was "one dimensional."  As I pondered my judging on the way home, that was something that occurred to me.  Some aspect of the beer (malt, hops, etc.) was present and good but then something else was throwing the beer off like astringency, or harshness, etc. and it just left the beer lacking overall.  They were not major flaws - but seemed to me like water issues, or maybe recipe balance issues, or perhaps simply yeast health and a fermentation that was not quite where it needed to be.

2.) The other thing I felt was challenging was coming up with quality, concise descriptors and adjectives.  It is hard to naturally think up a useful adjective when you are under the gun.  I felt like I could have phrased things better than I did.  So, simply practicing writing out score sheets, and having some various descriptors that you have practiced using is a big help.

*I found it helpful to use the BJCP Checklist Scoresheet as a "studyguide" for descriptors.
*I found it helpful to write scoresheets on the classic style examples and then compare them to the sheets Gordon strong has posted on the BJCP site.
*Having entered quite a few competitions was helpful, simply from reading a lot of scoresheets of different quality.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on February 27, 2015, 04:06:48 PM
Sadly, like vision, one's ability to smell and taste deteriorates with age; hence, I urge younger brewers who many be interested in sitting for the exam one day to not put that day off.  Any disadvantage that you may have when it comes to brewing experience and knowledge is more than offset by a young keen sense of smell and taste when sitting for the beer judging exam.
Except that the proctors are also vulnerable to those same effects of age, so unless you have a significant portion of the examinees sense something that the proctors don't, those keen senses won't be as helpful.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on February 27, 2015, 06:19:21 PM
Only the front side is scanned and photocopied. It's part of the instructions:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Exam_Cover_Sheet.pdf

I have no animosity towards the BJCP about that. It was my own fault 100%. I will continue to give as much feedback as I can when actually judgeing but if I have to retake the tasteing exam I will remember to keep it to the front page only.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: santoch on February 28, 2015, 04:46:37 AM
The exam that I sat with gmwren was my first shot at the exam.  I had no idea as to what I had bitten off.  I went from not knowing how the BJCP was organized to sitting for the entrance and beer judging exam literally within the span of a week.  Looking back and knowing what I know now, it's amazing that I was able to get that far. Luckily, I did not know enough about the beer judging exam to attempt to "game" it.

I had the opportunity to re-sit for the beer judging exam early last fall as a high number on a waiting list.  I am glad that I  spent time judging before sitting for this exam session because no doctored beers were served.  The real world flaws in the beers served during this session were much more subtle than the heavily doctored beers that were served at the exam that I sat with gmwren (he was not kidding when he stated that three awful beers were followed by a beer that appeared to be ringer).  I just did my best to describe the beers that were placed in front of me, and I made certain that I filled the white space on each score sheet.  My motto is now, "When in doubt, fill the score sheet out!"
Good to see that you listened to some of the tough critics and tried again, and had a better result.

I need to try the tasting again.

Agreed-  I'm really glad you didn't throw in the towel.  Judging seems very easy from the outside looking in, but as you have proven, its more than just drinking a bunch of free beer.

Get signed up to judge now.  It's competition season!

Also, the NHC 1st round is coming soon, too.  That's a great place to get more experience.  The judge directors will pair new judges with experienced ones, provided you let them know you are in your first few months, so make sure you tell them.  There are plenty of highly experienced guys around at the big events, so chances are good you'll get to judge with one or two of them.

Steve

Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 28, 2015, 05:11:21 AM
Agreed-  I'm really glad you didn't throw in the towel.  Judging seems very easy from the outside looking in, but as you have proven, its more than just drinking a bunch of free beer.

Get signed up to judge now.  It's competition season!

Also, the NHC 1st round is coming soon, too.  That's a great place to get more experience.  The judge directors will pair new judges with experienced ones, provided you let them know you are in your first few months, so make sure you tell them.  There are plenty of highly experienced guys around at the big events, so chances are good you'll get to judge with one or two of them.

I started judging back when I received my BJCP ID, which is why I was able to bypass the Recognized rank after getting out of Apprentice jail.  I also had the opportunity to judge the final round last year as a "Rank Pending" judge.  I was paired with a very good National judge.  I am currently signed up to judge couple of local competitions.  I may sign up to judge the 1st round; however, I currently have a scheduling conflict that needs to be resolved.

Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on February 28, 2015, 05:18:10 AM
Judging seems very easy from the outside looking in, but as you have proven, its more than just drinking a bunch of free beer.

lol I just wrote an article for HBT, and that was one of my opening comments. #shamelessselfpromotion

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/drink-like-a-beer-judge.html
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: santoch on March 01, 2015, 07:26:15 PM
Good article, Toby
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on March 18, 2015, 11:15:47 PM
Just got my score. I'm pretty sure those back of the sheet pages were the main problem.

Bu tI got an 80% so I'll take that. I got Master level in Scoring accuracy, National level in perceptive accuracy and certified everywhere else. I'm pretty sure some of that certified is because I put advice for improvement on the back of the page. maybe I'll take it again later this year.


Only the front side is scanned and photocopied. It's part of the instructions:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Exam_Cover_Sheet.pdf

I have no animosity towards the BJCP about that. It was my own fault 100%. I will continue to give as much feedback as I can when actually judgeing but if I have to retake the tasteing exam I will remember to keep it to the front page only.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 18, 2015, 11:21:12 PM
Just got my score. I'm pretty sure those back of the sheet pages were the main problem.

Bu tI got an 80% so I'll take that. I got Master level in Scoring accuracy, National level in perceptive accuracy and certified everywhere else. I'm pretty sure some of that certified is because I put advice for improvement on the back of the page. maybe I'll take it again later this year.


Only the front side is scanned and photocopied. It's part of the instructions:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Exam_Cover_Sheet.pdf

I have no animosity towards the BJCP about that. It was my own fault 100%. I will continue to give as much feedback as I can when actually judgeing but if I have to retake the tasteing exam I will remember to keep it to the front page only.

An 80 is something to be proud of Mort!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: HoosierBrew on March 18, 2015, 11:22:41 PM
Great job, Jonathan.  I'm sure you'll make a great BJCP.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Jimmy K on March 19, 2015, 12:02:00 AM
You got an 80 with the backs not sent to graders! That's impressive!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on March 19, 2015, 12:36:31 AM
Just got my score. I'm pretty sure those back of the sheet pages were the main problem.

Bu tI got an 80% so I'll take that. I got Master level in Scoring accuracy, National level in perceptive accuracy and certified everywhere else. I'm pretty sure some of that certified is because I put advice for improvement on the back of the page. maybe I'll take it again later this year.


Only the front side is scanned and photocopied. It's part of the instructions:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Exam_Cover_Sheet.pdf

I have no animosity towards the BJCP about that. It was my own fault 100%. I will continue to give as much feedback as I can when actually judgeing but if I have to retake the tasteing exam I will remember to keep it to the front page only.

An 80 is something to be proud of Mort!

yeah I'm pretty happy. burns a little to know I would probably have done better if I read the instructions more closely but lesson learned.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: duboman on March 19, 2015, 12:44:17 AM
Congrats!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 19, 2015, 01:04:43 AM
I got an 80% so I'll take that.

Congratulations!

All of that worrying for nothing!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: klickitat jim on March 19, 2015, 03:11:53 AM
That's awesome! Good job.

I wish I had put a few things on the back... lol
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 19, 2015, 03:19:29 AM
I have only judged one competition and have no aspirations for that high of a score, but I hear you.  The score of a beer doesn't mean it was going to be to medal either, but it means it was a beer determined to be in that range.... A 43 is still a good score and if another beer won Mini BOS, that's okay.  Likewise, only getting the front part scored means you kicked butt and the system failed a bit by not giving you room on the front to fully express yourself.  Sounds like you will be a GM some time soon!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 19, 2015, 01:39:16 PM
yeah I'm pretty happy. burns a little to know I would probably have done better if I read the instructions more closely but lesson learned.

Don't feel bad, NOBODY reads the instructions...everybody jumps in. For a short time the examinee was asked to initial each line that they read it, I wish we still had that.

When we gave the essay exam getting the examinees to number the pages correctly was like herding cats, all of a sudden intelligent adults became children with one of those big fat pencils and paper which tore as soon as you touched it with the lead. I'm not quite sure why that was, but eventually I made a template and gave it to every examinee. Several still got it wrong.

Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on March 19, 2015, 01:51:21 PM
yeah I'm pretty happy. burns a little to know I would probably have done better if I read the instructions more closely but lesson learned.

Don't feel bad, NOBODY reads the instructions...everybody jumps in. For a short time the examinee was asked to initial each line that they read it, I wish we still had that.

When we gave the essay exam getting the examinees to number the pages correctly was like herding cats, all of a sudden intelligent adults became children with one of those big fat pencils and paper which tore as soon as you touched it with the lead. I'm not quite sure why that was, but eventually I made a template and gave it to every examinee. Several still got it wrong.

thanks Mike. I've got some time before I'm eligible for the written exam (I've only got 3.5 points right now) but you can be sure I'll read all the instructions carefully when I do.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: dkfick on March 19, 2015, 04:01:39 PM
yeah I'm pretty happy. burns a little to know I would probably have done better if I read the instructions more closely but lesson learned.

Don't feel bad, NOBODY reads the instructions...everybody jumps in. For a short time the examinee was asked to initial each line that they read it, I wish we still had that.

When we gave the essay exam getting the examinees to number the pages correctly was like herding cats, all of a sudden intelligent adults became children with one of those big fat pencils and paper which tore as soon as you touched it with the lead. I'm not quite sure why that was, but eventually I made a template and gave it to every examinee. Several still got it wrong.

thanks Mike. I've got some time before I'm eligible for the written exam (I've only got 3.5 points right now) but you can be sure I'll read all the instructions carefully when I do.
Big thing with the written exam is practicing answering those questions as quickly as possible.  I got my exam, read through it, and thought "Wow I'm going to ace this thing.  I could answer these with my eyes closed."... Well that is true... but answering them in the allotted time proved to be a different thing altogether lol.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 19, 2015, 04:25:02 PM
Just got my score. I'm pretty sure those back of the sheet pages were the main problem.

Bu tI got an 80% so I'll take that. I got Master level in Scoring accuracy, National level in perceptive accuracy and certified everywhere else. I'm pretty sure some of that certified is because I put advice for improvement on the back of the page. maybe I'll take it again later this year.

Congrats!  Just got mine with the update yesterday as well (81).  My biggest issues were apparently perception and feedback on a couple beers that really hurt me (I don't know what beer I got compared to the proctors lol).  My Completeness was Master level, and Descriptive Ability and Scoring were National, and Certified on the other two.  I'll probably bring up my concerns with the new RTP at NHC, though.  That being said, I'm not planning to re-take any time soon (will probably go for master eventually).  I'll probably schedule the written some time this summer (maybe NHC or the July quarterly before the new guidelines take effect).  I will have more than enough points for National by then assuming I do well enough on the written (I'm at 19.5 at the moment).
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 19, 2015, 04:43:15 PM
yeah I'm pretty happy. burns a little to know I would probably have done better if I read the instructions more closely but lesson learned.

Don't feel bad, NOBODY reads the instructions...everybody jumps in. For a short time the examinee was asked to initial each line that they read it, I wish we still had that.

When we gave the essay exam getting the examinees to number the pages correctly was like herding cats, all of a sudden intelligent adults became children with one of those big fat pencils and paper which tore as soon as you touched it with the lead. I'm not quite sure why that was, but eventually I made a template and gave it to every examinee. Several still got it wrong.

thanks Mike. I've got some time before I'm eligible for the written exam (I've only got 3.5 points right now) but you can be sure I'll read all the instructions carefully when I do.
Big thing with the written exam is practicing answering those questions as quickly as possible.  I got my exam, read through it, and thought "Wow I'm going to ace this thing.  I could answer these with my eyes closed."... Well that is true... but answering them in the allotted time proved to be a different thing altogether lol.

Exactly.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 19, 2015, 08:26:30 PM
I'll probably bring up my concerns with the new RTP at NHC, though. 

Ask yourself how much long you are willing to wait for exam results with a different RTP. 1 month? 2 months? 3 months?

The old legacy exam took ~5 hours per exam for grading and RTP. The new taste exam takes me a little less than it took the examinees to take it to grade, reach consensus and complete the RTP. That equates to faster return times. I can write an RTP like the old one, but be prepared to wait. Would you rather have the results in a timely fashion or pages of verbiage after a very long wait. I suspect the answer would be the results.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 19, 2015, 09:13:56 PM
I'll probably bring up my concerns with the new RTP at NHC, though. 

Ask yourself how much long you are willing to wait for exam results with a different RTP. 1 month? 2 months? 3 months?

The old legacy exam took ~5 hours per exam for grading and RTP. The new taste exam takes me a little less than it took the examinees to take it to grade, reach consensus and complete the RTP. That equates to faster return times. I can write an RTP like the old one, but be prepared to wait. Would you rather have the results in a timely fashion or pages of verbiage after a very long wait. I suspect the answer would be the results.
I have asked myself that question, especially since my whole focus on improving my score is to be able to improve my state's judging/comp situation and expand the local pool.  If the current RTP meant a 4-6 week turnaround, I would embrace it wholeheartedly.  I could even see a 2 month turnaround being a significant improvement.  However, when I get the results with the new RTP in the same ~5.5 months (test date was 10/4/14 and results were posted 3/18/15) as the old RTP, it's a stretch to say it has accomplished much other than making it practically impossible for me to figure out where I went astray (since I don't have access to the relevant information).  I can only find out that my perceptions or scoring on a beer were way off the proctors', but I'm left to guess on where or why.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 19, 2015, 10:41:02 PM
Scoring is a crapshoot, you will never understand why. The grading documents will make it clear what your variance was however. They are in the exam section of the website.

As far the timeline for grading it sounds as if it went off the rails somewhere, perhaps someone went MIA.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 19, 2015, 11:10:03 PM
Scoring is a crapshoot, you will never understand why. The grading documents will make it clear what your variance was however. They are in the exam section of the website.
Yeah, my scoring was really off on one beer, but fine otherwise.  I can only assume that it was because there was literally variance between the bottles.  The admin mentioned when he was pouring into the pitcher that he could see gradations between the bottles (clear vs. cloudy).  I don't think he mixed them.  I would assume there was potentially taste/aroma difference too which killed the perception of my perception.  The other beer that really hurt me I'll never know why my perceptions were so off I suppose.  Ironically, I got master level scoring accuracy on that one, but was completely divergent on what I sensed.
Quote
As far the timeline for grading it sounds as if it went off the rails somewhere, perhaps someone went MIA.
I could see that coincidentally happening to both exams I've taken (since I know it happened in my original tasting), but it seems to be pretty common recently since if anyone asks about it, the normal response seems to be "they've been taking 5 or 6 months lately".  I suppose the catch-22 aspect of it winds up being the most frustrating.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: macbrews on March 20, 2015, 12:02:18 AM
How do they notify you of the results - email/USPS?

I'm waiting on one from last November.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 12:37:33 AM
The RTP will be uploaded to the BJCP website. Your pin will be mailed. I assume you are notified via email on your status.

I've seen as short as 8 weeks recently, but 12 weeks is more the norm. The holiday weeks in November/December shouldn't really be counted, despite the best efforts IME it is almost impossible to get any grading done during that time.

I know on a recent set it arrived to us late and we were a pinch hit grading team. We finished on time and then there was a delay in the final grading. So issues on the front end and a delay on the back end and I would guess the examinees got their results back at about 16 weeks even though the meat of the grading was finished in time.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 20, 2015, 01:37:17 AM
Just a silly thought, but I never hand right or print by hand more than a very short note, so I may start handwriting things more often over the next few months to see if my speed and clarity will improve.  I can think, talk and even type pretty quickly, but getting those thoughts reduced to a print form by hand is where I bog down....I wonder what the thought is on having the time so constrained, if the goal is to measure the accuracy of your perception and your ability to use appropriate descriptors to relate the perception to the brewer?
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 01:48:01 AM
You are given 15 minutes per beer to fill out the score sheet. The time really isn't constrained. I can pen a score sheet and reach consensus in 10 minutes or less. 15 minutes is not rushed at all for judging a beer. Often when I proctor (the sheets are longer), I have time to hit the head between beers if needed.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 20, 2015, 02:04:12 AM
Does that include allowing enough time to see if anything changes?  In my limited experience, the warming process on one beer over a few minutes allowed for certain flaws to become more pronounced and perceptible.  I am sure that you are quite skilled and I don't mean to be critical about your process, just thinking aloud about giving adequate time to fully evaluate.  Over time, I hope to be quicker, but I hope I don't rush through the process before my capabilities allow for it.  That wouldn't be fair to the entrant in a competition setting.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 12:25:21 PM
The goal is to evaluate a beer in 10 min or less including consensus as a BJCP judge. In reality with that goal in mind the time should be less, right? ;)

I honestly often find myself bored proctoring the exam because of the extra time. Some judges are incredibly slow, they evaluate the beers, but seem to take forever to get the words on the page. That is why, IMO, the time for evaluation is 15 minutes. I know two judges who have a difficult time writing due to health issues and they still can finish in less than 15 minutes. With practice, and you should practice before taking the exam, you should be able to finish each beer you are presented with time to spare.

As far as the beer changing, the aroma will begin to lessen in most cases making it more difficult to characterize. That is one of the reasons it is on the sheet first. The aroma and flavor may change as it warms, but a 2-4 ounce sample in your hand will warm very quickly. The key is to keep the beer in the weak hand and the pen in the writing hand and never set down the beer. You'll judge faster when you don't have to keep picking up the cup or glass.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Jimmy K on March 20, 2015, 12:46:27 PM
How do they notify you of the results - email/USPS?

I'm waiting on one from last November.
The web server sends an automated email with your score and rank when the database is updated.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Jimmy K on March 20, 2015, 12:54:25 PM
I'll probably bring up my concerns with the new RTP at NHC, though. 

Ask yourself how much long you are willing to wait for exam results with a different RTP. 1 month? 2 months? 3 months?
I was basically shocked when I got my last exam back, but I'd like to see something in the middle. I think a short description of how each beer was perceived by proctors/other examinees and the score. I don't think it would be too much extra work to add this because the graders must gather this information in order to grade the exam, and the information would be the same for every exam in a set. With that, I could compare it to my scanned exam sheets and decide for myself where I went wrong. As it is now, I have nothing to work with.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on March 20, 2015, 12:58:50 PM
I could see value in at least having the proctors score sheets scanned and available. I would love to see the actual feedback but I can imagine that it would take more time.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Jimmy K on March 20, 2015, 01:02:32 PM
I could see value in at least having the proctors score sheets scanned and available. I would love to see the actual feedback but I can imagine that it would take more time.
That would be easy, but if you read the grading guidelines they are not grading solely on that, so seeing raw proctor scoresheets could be confusing. They combine the proctors perceptions and can modify those if a large portion of examinees notice something different. That's why I thought a short writeup would be easier - what did the grader expect me to find?
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: AmandaK on March 20, 2015, 01:04:14 PM



I could see value in at least having the proctors score sheets scanned and available. I would love to see the actual feedback but I can imagine that it would take more time.

How would the proctor sheets give you feedback? They are just there to help the graders.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 01:09:55 PM
Thanks for the update, I was not sure how they are doing it currently. I do know people often screw up their email or change it. Here's the most current list of bad emails.
http://www.bjcp.org/apps/reports/noemail.php

Jimmy - In your case you did not get the newer tick sheet RTP, your's basically had no feedback only the grids. I suggest you contact Bruce Buerger and ask, be sure to give him your Examinee Number. If you would like I'll be glad to go over your exam sheet and tell you what to improve upon, of course I'm not known for being especially touchy feely. ;)

The current basis for RTP is this:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Judging_RTP.docx

The lead judge cuts in the grids and then I tweak the boxes and headers to convey where to focus for improvement. This is the sheet Toby received.

To do as you ask would require writing that information down. I personally make a consensus sheet using the NHC Second Round sheet, but you could not read it, it is for me during the grading to help form a mental picture and create a virtual beer. As I grade I continue to add to the virtual beer and tweak scoring as more information comes from the examinee sheets. To provide what you want would be the old RTP and would probably add another hour or two per examinee to the graders time. I know it's tough for me to get more than a single hour of down time here or there, much less another 24. Assuming 6 hours can be snagged per week for that level of feedback then a month at a minimum to the wait time.


Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Jimmy K on March 20, 2015, 01:20:24 PM
Jimmy - In your case you did not get the newer tick sheet RTP, your's basically had no feedback only the grids. I suggest you contact Bruce Buerger and ask, be sure to give him your Examinee Number. If you would like I'll be glad to go over your exam sheet and tell you what to improve upon, of course I'm not known for being especially touchy feely. ;)
Gotcha - that RTP is really what I was expecting last time.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on March 20, 2015, 01:28:00 PM
Thanks for the update, I was not sure how they are doing it currently. I do know people often screw up their email or change it. Here's the most current list of bad emails.
http://www.bjcp.org/apps/reports/noemail.php

Jimmy - In your case you did not get the newer tick sheet RTP, your's basically had no feedback only the grids. I suggest you contact Bruce Buerger and ask, be sure to give him your Examinee Number. If you would like I'll be glad to go over your exam sheet and tell you what to improve upon, of course I'm not known for being especially touchy feely. ;)

The current basis for RTP is this:
http://www.bjcp.org/forms/Judging_RTP.docx

The lead judge cuts in the grids and then I tweak the boxes and headers to convey where to focus for improvement. This is the sheet Toby received.

To do as you ask would require writing that information down. I personally make a consensus sheet using the NHC Second Round sheet, but you could not read it, it is for me during the grading to help form a mental picture and create a virtual beer. As I grade I continue to add to the virtual beer and tweak scoring as more information comes from the examinee sheets. To provide what you want would be the old RTP and would probably add another hour or two per examinee to the graders time. I know it's tough for me to get more than a single hour of down time here or there, much less another 24. Assuming 6 hours can be snagged per week for that level of feedback then a month at a minimum to the wait time.

ahh, I guess I would have liked a bit more feedback on the areas of improvement is all. that section on my score sheet was minimal (Congrats for doing very well... minor improvements...) without the specific check box areas to pay attention to portion. I understand that these are all volunteer graders and I totally understand how difficult it is to find extra time in the week.




I could see value in at least having the proctors score sheets scanned and available. I would love to see the actual feedback but I can imagine that it would take more time.

How would the proctor sheets give you feedback? They are just there to help the graders.

I would be interested in seeing where my perceptions diverged from theirs. As it makes up at least 20% of the grade (scoreing accuracy) and perhaps more (perceptive ability).

don't get me wrong, I'm not really complaining, just airing desires.  I am impressed with the dedication of the BJCP members who organize and run exams, and those that score them on their own time. In a lot of ways the BJCP is really impressive.

Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: AmandaK on March 20, 2015, 01:43:19 PM
Jonathan, in many of the exams I have taken the exam or been a proctor for the exam we have taken the time to have the examinees listen to what the admin claimed the beers to be and what the proctors perceived/scored. It is not required, obviously, but it is something done in this area since we all want an idea of how it went prior to getting real scores in a few months time.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: jeffy on March 20, 2015, 01:59:04 PM
Jonathan, in many of the exams I have taken the exam or been a proctor for the exam we have taken the time to have the examinees listen to what the admin claimed the beers to be and what the proctors perceived/scored. It is not required, obviously, but it is something done in this area since we all want an idea of how it went prior to getting real scores in a few months time.

This is also what I do after giving an exam, a synopsis of what the beers were and the proctors' scores.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: morticaixavier on March 20, 2015, 02:26:08 PM
Jonathan, in many of the exams I have taken the exam or been a proctor for the exam we have taken the time to have the examinees listen to what the admin claimed the beers to be and what the proctors perceived/scored. It is not required, obviously, but it is something done in this area since we all want an idea of how it went prior to getting real scores in a few months time.

we did all sit around having a beer after and informally talking about it. Some of the bad beers were so extraordinarily bad I had to know if they were doctored (they weren't) and on of the out of style beers was, i was pretty sure, standard american lager entered as german lager (it was) so we at least got to go over it with a few of the proctors and the admin. I was pretty sure I passed before I left but didn't have a great feel for how close I was to the proctors.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 20, 2015, 02:38:06 PM
The web server sends an automated email with your score and rank when the database is updated.

And to add a little additional info, you then log into the "Check Your Record" portal and can view PDF copies of your Exam sheets and the RTP.

I was basically shocked when I got my last exam back, but I'd like to see something in the middle. [...] With that, I could compare it to my scanned exam sheets and decide for myself where I went wrong. As it is now, I have nothing to work with.

From a time and effort perspective, I think even the exam admin notes and proctor sheets would be helpful for me.  There would be little to no effort since I'm pretty sure they're going to have scanned copies of those already, and the combination of the abbreviated RTPs and those would give me boatloads of information in a format more helpful for me.

How would the proctor sheets give you feedback? They are just there to help the graders.

From my perspective, they would help me triangulate any gaps in perception if combined with the admin notes.  In my locale, the opportunities to judge with higher ranked judges are very few and far between, and it's a bit of a handicap in the guild-like system the BJCP uses.

don't get me wrong, I'm not really complaining, just airing desires.

To be blunt, if raising concerns or trying to help the process become more helpful for those within it becomes considered complaining, that doesn't bode well.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 02:56:36 PM
Have a solution devised which is easy to implement and more consideration will be given than simply airing perceived grievances. Also better to present that solution to the Exam Directorate than to wait for a members meeting later in the year. The former is try to solve a perceived issue, the latter is really just complaining, especially since the EDs might not even be there.

The proctor sheets will probably never be public so scratch that. It has been discussed in the past and discarded. The consensus scores are sometimes put aside so those will probably not be made for public consumption since they are sometimes just a starting point. I see no reason why the admin notes could not be available, but in truth you could probably just ask your admin for a copy or a synopsis of the beers.

We always go over the beers and the scores and perceptions following the exam. The last time our discussion went at least 90 minutes and the examinees who cared took notes.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 20, 2015, 04:02:44 PM
Have a solution devised which is easy to implement and more consideration will be given than simply airing perceived grievances.
Part of the problem is that they are being perceived as grievances.  Way too much is being made out of a single passing comment I made.  I understand.  The Simpsons Already Did It.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 05:11:59 PM
You should find a seat at an upcoming Written exam, word on the street is the last one with the 2008 Guidelines will be the July Quarterly exam.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Pinski on March 20, 2015, 05:26:44 PM
You should find a seat at an upcoming Written exam, word on the street is the last one with the 2008 Guidelines will be the July Quarterly exam.

This is exactly why I'm busting my arse to earn enough experience points to take the written ASAP.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 20, 2015, 05:57:49 PM
This is exactly why I'm busting my arse to earn enough experience points to take the written ASAP.
From what I've seen, if you're close, most exam admins will make an exception if possible.  For me, points isn't an issue, but being able to wrangle the date and travel to work together (my closest option is still a ~10 hour round trip).  I can't make the May quarterly, so I'm somewhat crossing my fingers that the NHC Written will either be on the Wednesday or late enough on the Tuesday for me to make it (for some reason, I'm remembering it was either morning or mid-day on Tuesday last year).  My fallback option is convincing one of the TX guys I know to proctor a July quarterly if they don't wind up scheduling one already.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 06:07:10 PM
Looks like a drive to Houston might be the only choice other than the NHC.
http://www.bjcp.org/apps/reports/graders.php

I had a buddy lined up to give me the Quarterly exam and it got shot down because he is not a current grader although he graded in the past so I grabbed another National and we pushed the date to the July offering.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 20, 2015, 06:29:02 PM
Looks like a drive to Houston might be the only choice other than the NHC.
Paul may or may not be willing to do another that quickly since he already has the May one scheduled, but Houston or Austin would be options (although Austin would require at least a one night stay).  My plan was to ping Mike, Doak, and Jeff if NHC doesn't work out.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 06:46:48 PM
Austin is a heck of a lot more fun IMO than Houston.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 20, 2015, 07:06:33 PM
I tend to agree, but it's an extra 4-5 hours of travel in a week where I'll be heading to Asheville 3 days later.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on March 20, 2015, 07:58:45 PM
Head to Asheville early. It's a heck of a lot easier to find a National judge there.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on March 20, 2015, 08:18:54 PM
Unrealistic.  I'm already stretching my travel days to the bone over the summer for beer related things.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: ram5ey on April 06, 2015, 07:11:19 PM
Got my score last month from the Atlanta area exam last November.  Got a 76 which I was pleased with.  Phil Ferrell did great on the exam and prep courses.  We were able to spend time talking more about the exam beers after the exam concluded and the proctoring judges gave decently detailed notes of their sheets/scores so we had a pretty good clue how were were going to scored.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: klickitat jim on April 06, 2015, 08:42:28 PM
Got my score last month from the Atlanta area exam last November.  Got a 76 which I was pleased with.  Phil Ferrell did great on the exam and prep courses.  We were able to spend time talking more about the exam beers after the exam concluded and the proctoring judges gave decently detailed notes of their sheets/scores so we had a pretty good clue how were were going to scored.
Congrats!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: bonjour on April 06, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
As an exam administrator I was surprised to find out that the exams are seriously reviewed and at times, scores are adjusted.

There was a question about a beer I served based on my remarks on the beer and an score sheet comments  on the beer. 

To my knowledge the score on that beer was adjusted either Mike or one of his senior assistants.

Point is the exam results are seriously reviewed and scores adjusted as needed.  They really do a great job.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: Herminator on April 07, 2015, 01:29:28 AM
Good job Mort and ram5ey!
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on April 07, 2015, 01:41:48 PM
Got my score last month from the Atlanta area exam last November.  Got a 76 which I was pleased with.  Phil Ferrell did great on the exam and prep courses.  We were able to spend time talking more about the exam beers after the exam concluded and the proctoring judges gave decently detailed notes of their sheets/scores so we had a pretty good clue how were were going to scored.

Congrats!

I had great admins at both my exams that spent a lot of time with us discussing the beers, but proctors at one took a lot of extra time so didn't discuss anything with us, and the proctors at the other were in a snarky mood, so you had to really read between the lines to know, for example, that no they didn't really give the commercial IPA a 13.  Thankfully, I don't plan to take the tasting again for a while.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: noblesquirrel on April 07, 2015, 08:44:22 PM
As an exam administrator I was surprised to find out that the exams are seriously reviewed and at times, scores are adjusted.

There was a question about a beer I served based on my remarks on the beer and an score sheet comments  on the beer. 

To my knowledge the score on that beer was adjusted either Mike or one of his senior assistants.

Point is the exam results are seriously reviewed and scores adjusted as needed.  They really do a great job.

Always good to hear positive feedback! I'm a recently appointed Associate Exam Director and graded about 110 individual exams last year. It's a lot of work but it's rewarding. We do take it very seriously and try not to cheat anybody out of points. It's been fun seeing all the new judges over the past few years at competitions and advancing through the ranks! I judge around 17-18 competitions/year and it's been great seeing the number of National and higher judges increase by over 100%. It seems that nearly every table has a National or higher judge these days.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: dsmitch19 on April 07, 2015, 10:25:50 PM
Always good to hear positive feedback! I'm a recently appointed Associate Exam Director and graded about 110 individual exams last year. It's a lot of work but it's rewarding. We do take it very seriously and try not to cheat anybody out of points. It's been fun seeing all the new judges over the past few years at competitions and advancing through the ranks! I judge around 17-18 competitions/year and it's been great seeing the number of National and higher judges increase by over 100%. It seems that nearly every table has a National or higher judge these days.

I think that depends on where you are judging since the BJCP tends to have very strong representation in certain areas and much weaker representation in others. In AZ, we only have 1 master and 6 national. Of those seven higher ranking judges, we might get 3-4 of them to show up on a good day. Two of them are pretty much retired from judging. Now when I've traveled to San Diego or even Denver to judge, it's a much different story.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: MDixon on April 07, 2015, 10:53:40 PM
When I became National (number 304 in the program, 2004), it was difficult to find more than a handful of higher ranking judges at any comp and we only had 50 judges in the entire state of NC. Now we have 117 active judges and enough Masters that I must advance my rank or risk not sitting on the BOS round.
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: toby on April 08, 2015, 03:02:26 AM
I think that depends on where you are judging since the BJCP tends to have very strong representation in certain areas and much weaker representation in others. In AZ, we only have 1 master and 6 national. Of those seven higher ranking judges, we might get 3-4 of them to show up on a good day. Two of them are pretty much retired from judging. Now when I've traveled to San Diego or even Denver to judge, it's a much different story.
You have no idea.  LA has 2 National judges and somewhere around 22 total active judges (IIRC from my last database lookup).  And those two National judges are loooong time judges (including judge A0001) who are fairly selective about what they judge (one is a pro brewer and neither are spring chickens any more).  The biggest hurdle has always been lack of competitions and travel required to even take an exam.  There's been a fair amount of movement this past year to address both, though.  Hopefully I can help before I'm in their shoes.  lol
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: noblesquirrel on April 08, 2015, 06:49:49 PM
Always good to hear positive feedback! I'm a recently appointed Associate Exam Director and graded about 110 individual exams last year. It's a lot of work but it's rewarding. We do take it very seriously and try not to cheat anybody out of points. It's been fun seeing all the new judges over the past few years at competitions and advancing through the ranks! I judge around 17-18 competitions/year and it's been great seeing the number of National and higher judges increase by over 100%. It seems that nearly every table has a National or higher judge these days.

I think that depends on where you are judging since the BJCP tends to have very strong representation in certain areas and much weaker representation in others. In AZ, we only have 1 master and 6 national. Of those seven higher ranking judges, we might get 3-4 of them to show up on a good day. Two of them are pretty much retired from judging. Now when I've traveled to San Diego or even Denver to judge, it's a much different story.

Right, I was speaking more of the competitions here in the Midwest. Between Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee and Indianapolis, there are tons of judges. Finally getting some Grand Masters in the region as well after a long period of only having one (who passed away).
Title: Re: BJCP Tasting Exam....I Passed!
Post by: macbrews on April 08, 2015, 08:04:50 PM
Always good to hear positive feedback! I'm a recently appointed Associate Exam Director and graded about 110 individual exams last year. It's a lot of work but it's rewarding. We do take it very seriously and try not to cheat anybody out of points. It's been fun seeing all the new judges over the past few years at competitions and advancing through the ranks! I judge around 17-18 competitions/year and it's been great seeing the number of National and higher judges increase by over 100%. It seems that nearly every table has a National or higher judge these days.

I think that depends on where you are judging since the BJCP tends to have very strong representation in certain areas and much weaker representation in others. In AZ, we only have 1 master and 6 national. Of those seven higher ranking judges, we might get 3-4 of them to show up on a good day. Two of them are pretty much retired from judging. Now when I've traveled to San Diego or even Denver to judge, it's a much different story.




Still need more certified and up judges.  At STL NHC 1st round comp, I had 5 entries with 11 total scoresheets.  Of the 11 scoresheets that were returned, one was graded by a certified and  one by a national judge.  The other 9 were graded by recognized and novice judges.