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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: bboy9000 on February 24, 2015, 11:41:30 PM

Title: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 24, 2015, 11:41:30 PM
I pitched two packets of rehydrated Lallemand BRY-97 72 hours ago (Saturday 2-21-15) into 5G of 1.056 OG wort and still no signs of fermentation.   I pitched at 63F but after 48 hours (yesterday afternoon) I moved the carboy to a room where the beer (still wort?) is now at 68F.  There's a layer of yeast on the bottom of the carboy and a few patches of bubbles on the surface, but nothing to indicate it has left the lag phase.  I've read about long lag times with this yeast but after 72 hours I'm starting to get uneasy.  I've been brewing for three years and I'm confident in my sanitation practices but this is concerning.

For anyone who has used the dry BRY-97, have you experienced this?  I think I can wait another 12 hours but tomorrow morning I'll be tempted to pitch some Pacman that finally woke up.  If you have experience with this please advise.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: chumley on February 25, 2015, 12:24:23 AM
I have not experienced that, and have had good luck with BRY-97 fermentations so far, but one never knows what the dried package went through before you got it.  When things are slow for the ales, a backup plan is always good.  I have brewed several IPAs where I used BRY-97 as the backup plan (e.g., add it, rehydrated, to the primary after a couple of days of slow start), and it has always worked out well.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: mchrispen on February 25, 2015, 12:35:08 AM
Bry-97 is notoriously slow, but once it gets going - does very well to produce a fairly clean ferment. I have repitched out to about 4 generations - the lag shortens dramatically with a BRY-97 starter (harvested) at high krausen.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 25, 2015, 01:09:54 AM

Bry-97 is notoriously slow, but once it gets going - does very well to produce a fairly clean ferment. I have repitched out to about 4 generations - the lag shortens dramatically with a BRY-97 starter (harvested) at high krausen.

That's what I've read.  Have you used the dry or liquid version?  Or both?  What has been your lowest lag phase with this yeast?
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: mchrispen on February 25, 2015, 01:26:44 AM
I started with the dry version, but rehydrated and was careful about pitching the proper amount. Really liked the results in my house APA. About the third batch I started to harvest, as I was refining the recipe. Each of those first pitches took between 36 and 48 hours to show signs of fermentation. Each also attenuated very well and quickly reached FG - in under 5 days if my notes are accurate. APA gravity around 1.055, FG around 1.012... one down to 1.008. Initially there was a pleasant peach ester I associated with the yeast (according to notes) that faded as the APA matured and dropped clear.

The second and third generation batches had very little lag time (under 12 hours each) but I don't remember the time between harvest and pitch to be honest. It was probably 3-4 weeks. After 5-6 consecutive APAs - I stopped using it. I tossed out the 4th generation harvest because I decided to restart with fresh yeast. I had been washing those yeast harvests and found S. Cerv's better and more convenient recommendation to not wash...

Really - Mark should weigh in. He knows much more about the ins and outs of BRY-97.
Title: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 25, 2015, 01:42:00 AM
Thanks for the feedback, that's consistent with what I've read.  But 72 hours?  I used Mr. Malty to decide on two packs.  At about 70% viability Mr. Malty indicated 1.6 or 1.7 packs so I rehydrated two in 220mL 90F boiled tap water.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: mchrispen on February 25, 2015, 01:56:36 AM
Sounds like you did everything right... I was really nervous as well the first time I used it. You will have to decide if you are willing to let it go further.

Did you temper the rehydrated yeast to pitching temps? That might have shocked the yeast a bit.

I wonder if the (WLP060) liquid yeast equivalent also has such a long lag.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 25, 2015, 02:01:39 AM

Did you temper the rehydrated yeast to pitching temps?

No, it crossed my mind but I never did this when I used to use dry yeast, like 2.5 years ago.  I rarely had problems then.  Maybe I should chill closer to pitching temperature the next time.  Thing is,  the instructions recommend just letting the yeast sit in the water for 15 minutes before pitching.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 25, 2015, 02:33:26 AM
BRY 97 is not a good low temperature ale yeast strain. I pitched my first BRY 97 fermentation at 62F because that was the temperature of my basement at the time.  That fermentation took 72 hours to start.  I pitched my next BRY 97 fermentation at 68F, and the fermentation started in 18 hours.  There was zero difference in ester level between the 62F and 68F beers.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: erockrph on February 25, 2015, 03:01:32 AM
Sounds like you did everything right... I was really nervous as well the first time I used it. You will have to decide if you are willing to let it go further.

Did you temper the rehydrated yeast to pitching temps? That might have shocked the yeast a bit.

I wonder if the (WLP060) liquid yeast equivalent also has such a long lag.
I thought the liquid equivalent was WLP051/WY1272?

It's been a long time since I've used WLP051, but I don't remember it being an especially slow starter.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: mchrispen on February 25, 2015, 03:21:56 AM
Google may have failed me... Always used the dry version.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 25, 2015, 03:24:54 AM
Mine was about 48 hrs to signs of fermentation. Beer is fine.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: 3bbrewing on February 25, 2015, 04:07:07 AM
I've used this yeast a lot at controlled temps from 62 to 68 depending on the beer type.  I honestly have never experienced this long lag time that others seem to experience.  What is "good till" date on the package?  Too old maybe??  How does your HB store store them?  Shelf, frig, or?  How did you handle and store it?  With dry yeast, I think these factors have quite an effect but are sometimes overlooked.  We sometimes think of dry yeast as bullet proof and while it may be much more durable than liquid, it still needs to be somewhat fresh and handled properly IMHO. 

Quote
I wonder if the (WLP060) liquid yeast equivalent also has such a long lag.
  Isn't WLP060 is the Am ale yeast blend with 01 plus others?  On Llemand's site they descirbe 97 as "Chico like" but it isn't 01/1056 for sure.  It seems more like WLP051/1272 IMHO.   
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 25, 2015, 04:16:21 AM
I don't remember the "good till" date,  but Mr. Malty indicated about 70% viability.  I don't think my LHBS refrigerates dry yeast but the storage room is definitely cool as I've become friends with the owner and I'm back there often.  I'll let it be until tomorrow afternoon but if I don't see any changes the Pacman is going in.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: tommymorris on February 25, 2015, 04:52:23 AM
The time I used bry97 it was doing nothing on day 2. I noticed the yeast was on the bottom and sides of the fermenter. I raised the temp a few degrees and gave the carboy a shake and fermentation was going a few hours later.

The beer was great.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 25, 2015, 05:17:26 AM
Thanks Tommy.  I noticed the same layer and yeast ring on the side about 12 hours after pitching.  I didn't want to shake it as I've read not to aerate dry yeast.  I just gave the carboy a swirl so maybe I'll see some evidence of fermentation tomorrow.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 25, 2015, 02:54:06 PM
Thanks Tommy.  I noticed the same layer and yeast ring on the side about 12 hours after pitching.  I didn't want to shake it as I've read not to aerate dry yeast.  I just gave the carboy a swirl so maybe I'll see some evidence of fermentation tomorrow.

While aeration is not critical on the first pitch with dry yeast, moderate aeration will not hurt a fermentation.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 25, 2015, 03:02:50 PM
I thought the liquid equivalent was WLP051/WY1272?

It's been a long time since I've used WLP051, but I don't remember it being an especially slow starter.

WLP051/Wy1272 are the liquid forms of BRY 97.  The liquid forms of BRY 97 are slightly slower than the average liquid strain, but not nearly as slow as dry BRY 97.    My SWAG is that BRY 97 does not handle aerobic propagation and fluid bed drying as well as BRY 96.  The shelf life also appears to be shorter than that of dry BRY 96 (a.k.a. US-05), which is not helped by the fact that BRY 97 appears to be a slow seller.  Dry BRY 97 does behave normally upon repitching, which leads me to believe that dry BRY 97 could benefit from being started instead of just rehydrated.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: 3bbrewing on February 25, 2015, 04:07:40 PM
Good info Mark!  Thank you...  I've done starters with dry yeast in the past with the dry lager yeast, and I found it to work very well.  I see it as making a mini-beer. 

Not that it's uncommon, but I've found some packs that were 1 1/2 years old based on the use by date in various shops and/or have received via mail order.  I go with something else then or send it back. 
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 26, 2015, 02:02:43 AM
Well after 90 hours and no fermentation I pitched some fresh Pacman that I grew up from 9 month old slurry last week.  I had active fermentation within 90 minutes.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: skyler on February 27, 2015, 03:04:06 AM
IME, BRY-97 is more temperature-sensitive (with regards to cold fermentation) than other strains of Chico (and the like). While I have fermented Pacman as low as 52F once (56F on several occasions) and US-05, WLP001, and WY1056 have all given me good results in the 58F-60F range, BRY-97 hasn't enjoyed temperatures below 64F for me. I still slightly prefer it over US-05 because it has been a little more flocculant for me and hasn't ever given me the peachy "dry yeast" flavor, I consider it a much more delicate yeast than the other similar strains.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on February 27, 2015, 04:26:41 AM
IME, BRY-97 is more temperature-sensitive (with regards to cold fermentation) than other strains of Chico (and the like).

BRY 97 is not "Chico."  Chico is BRY 96.  The major modern brewery using BRY 97 is Anchor.  As I mentioned earlier, both strains came from Ballantine.   BRY 96 is kind of unique in the world of domesticated brewing yeast because it is a diploid yeast strain.  Most brewing yeast strains are polyploids.

Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on February 27, 2015, 04:55:15 AM

IME, BRY-97 is more temperature-sensitive (with regards to cold fermentation) than other strains of Chico (and the like).

BRY 97 is not "Chico."  Chico is BRY 96.  The major modern brewery using BRY 97 is Anchor.  As I mentioned earlier, both strains came from Ballantine.   BRY 96 is kind of unique in the world of domesticated brewing yeast because it is a diploid yeast strain.  Most brewing yeast strains are polyploids.
Since reading your posts I've noticed there's all kinds of misinformation on homebrewing forums on the identity of BRY-97.  Most homebrewers on the web think its Chico or Pacman. 

Anyway, it will be some other batch when I get to experience BRY-97 as I pitched Pacman after 94 hours of no fermentation.  The 9 month old Pacman was slow to start in the 2L starter.  I decanted the liquid portion of the starter into another vessel 48 hours after pitching 200mL of old slurry, (it was slow to wake up) leaving most of the settled stuff on the bottom.  I crashed the decanted liquid and ended up with about 200mL of fresh yeast.  I didn't think it would be enough but it started fermenting the wort in less than 90 minutes.  After 90 hours of no fermentation from the dry BRY-97 that was nice.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: YooperBrew on February 28, 2015, 03:46:56 PM
Bry-97 is notoriously slow, but once it gets going - does very well to produce a fairly clean ferment. I have repitched out to about 4 generations - the lag shortens dramatically with a BRY-97 starter (harvested) at high krausen.

That's been my experience as well.  It starts very slowly for me, but I prefer the clean flavors over the other dry I used to use, S05.  It flocculates better than S05 as well, and makes a clearer beer faster in my experience.

I don't use it often, but when I have used it it's done just fine for me.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 04, 2015, 04:33:50 PM
Since reading your posts I've noticed there's all kinds of misinformation on homebrewing forums on the identity of BRY-97.  Most homebrewers on the web think its Chico or Pacman. 

Lallemand owns the Siebel Institute of Technology.  If Lallemand wanted to release "Chico" in its native form, they would have just released BRY 96.  Instead, they chose to offer the other Ballantine strain as their clean American strain. 

About the only thing that BRY 97 and BRY 96 have in common is that both strains are relatively neutral.  BRY 97 is malt forward and highly flocculent. Here's a photo that I shot of BRY 97 flocs after racking:

(http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv356/tonestack/Brewing/Bry97flocs_zpsa574812c.jpg)

Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: coolman26 on March 05, 2015, 01:39:06 AM
I never mind the lag.  As long as you pitch the right amount, go with it. Ballantine, wish I could have tried one.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on March 05, 2015, 01:41:23 AM
Well after 90 hours I started to mind the lag.  I'll have to wait until next time and try the liquid version in a starter.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: coolman26 on March 05, 2015, 01:50:00 AM
Wow 90, I have been at 48.  I hardly ever use dry for this reason.  Starters just make sense for me.  Plus some strains are a PIA. 
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: bboy9000 on March 05, 2015, 02:00:14 AM
The irony is I was wanting to pitch Pacman from some 9 year old slurry but it didn't take off so I went to the LHBS and got the dry BRY-97.  Then the Pacman woke up a day after I pitched the two packs of dry yeast so a put it in the fridge not knowing I'd need it. 
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: S. cerevisiae on March 05, 2015, 12:21:36 PM
Seventy-two hours is about the longest lag period reported for this yeast strain until your experience.  Fermentation usually starts within 48 hours when two packages are pitched.

Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: BrewBama on August 31, 2018, 01:42:35 AM
I am dredging up an old thread due to another odd BRY-97 behavior. I expect the usual slow start ...but usually once it takes off (it took 2 days) it’s a fairly vigorous ferment and fast ~4/5 day finisher in my experience. But I have a Pale Ale that’s been in the fermenter 11 days and the hydrometer is still floating high (~1.024-ish) ...and still bubbling away in the blow off jar. 9 days fermenting. Odd.


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Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: tommymorris on August 31, 2018, 02:04:05 PM
I am dredging up an old thread due to another odd BRY-97 behavior. I expect the usual slow start ...but usually once it takes off (it took 2 days) it’s a fairly vigorous ferment and fast ~4/5 day finisher in my experience. But I have a Pale Ale that’s been in the fermenter 11 days and the hydrometer is still floating high (~1.024-ish) ...and still bubbling away in the blow off jar. 9 days fermenting. Odd.


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That is odd. I would suspect something besides the BRY-97. Maybe your thermometer went bad and you didn’t mash at the right temperature? or somehow you have more unfermentable starches than expected.


- formerly alestateyall.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: BrewBama on August 31, 2018, 03:49:23 PM
I went thru troubleshooting steps because I thought the same thing. However, it is still bubbling away indicating it’s still fermenting. If I had unfermentables it would be done I’d think. I’ll take another sample tonight or tomorrow and see if the gravity is still (slowly) dropping.


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Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: denny on August 31, 2018, 05:18:36 PM
I went thru troubleshooting steps because I thought the same thing. However, it is still bubbling away indicating it’s still fermenting. If I had unfermentables it would be done I’d think. I’ll take another sample tonight or tomorrow and see if the gravity is still (slowly) dropping.


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Bubbles mean CO2 release, which does not necessarily equate to fermentation
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: BrewBama on August 31, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
I agree. ...that’s why I’ll continue to take hydrometer samples.


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Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: Steven Morgan on August 31, 2018, 09:54:30 PM
I've had a 24 hour startup time with that yeast at 66F but nothing like days. For other reasons, I'm quitting that yeast after three brews. Nothing crisp and won't clarify after a month or more. The beers are cloyingly sticky tasting with an annoying aftertaste. I brewed a batch twice using BRY97 in one fermenter and SO5 in the other. No comparison. There are lots of good reviews for BRY97 but not from me. I do like Lallemand in general.
Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: BrewBama on August 31, 2018, 10:47:46 PM
That’s an interesting experience. I think that US-05 adds a fruity ‘tone’ that I don’t get from BRY-9 which I find much ‘cleaner’.   That’s ok in some beers I guess. I have had good clarity from both.

I just never experienced the LONG ferment like I am this time around. Those bubbles in the airlock are definitely fermentation bubbles.


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Title: Re: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: coolman26 on September 01, 2018, 02:32:40 AM
97 has freaked me out every time I’ve used it. (3) That was enough for me. Slow as heck to get going and wasn’t what I was looking for.


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Title: Who Has Experienced BRY-97 Slow Start?
Post by: BrewBama on September 07, 2018, 06:50:02 PM
Well it finally finished at 1.010 ~77% attenuation Weds. I took my second reading today. Weirdest ferment I’ve seen to date.

The hydrometer sample taste like a typical Amer Pale Ale with Cascade. (I can’t eat grapefruit so this is my fix.) I’ll cold crash, fine, and carb it so it’ll be ready for the Homebrew Fest next weekend.


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